[Stay with this – it lead to a BBC programme]
Like many people, I was told never talk about religion and politics in polite company. But we broke the rules …
Dave Mundy
According to the Bible Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Palestine , a country where people are called Mohammed, Abdul, Mounir, Aziz, Ahmed, Farid, Omar, Youssouf, Mouloud, etc… And yet he managed to find 12 friends called John, Peter, Paul, Phillip, Mark, Thomas, Luke, Mathew, Andrew and Simon… who all drank wine
That’s what I call a miracle!
Geoff Hawkes
Very amusing Dave, but…
The language of the day was Aramaic, Peter = Kepa. The majority of the names at that time would be Jewish, not Muslim. Mohammad was not born until 570 AD.
Bernard Newnham
Mohammed was born in 571AD.
Graeme Wall
Presumably the name Mohammad was around in the Arab world before the birth of the prophet.
Vernon Dyer
Well, we’re reading an English translation, of course – who knows what the names were in the original language. A blog I read which is written by a retired minister (but he doesn’t harp on about religion all the time) refers to Jesus as Yeshua Ben Yusuf – Jesus son of Joseph, which seems convincing.
But hey, don’t let’s get too heavy about it!
Dave Plowman
Quite – many forget the bible we all know is a translation that to some extent reflects the values and thinking of the time it was translated. So really can’t be taken as Gospel.
Dave Mundy
…and not only that, it is a ‘selection’ of many writings chosen by religious people in ?Rome. It would be interesting to read the bits they left out!
David Denness
I believe at a convention in Nicene the four gospels in the New Testament were chosen from a total of fifteen as they more closely matched the prophecies of the Old Testament. None of them were written anywhere near the time of the events in the Bible anyway.
Peter Cook
Jeshua (Jesus) comes from the same root as Joshua and Joseph. The four gospels were written decades after the time of Christ and were written in Greek or Aramaic. English translations are therefore at least second generation. I am not sure what language was spoken in Britannica at that time but translations from whatever that was would have been subject to a similar process. The Bible has many names preceding Christ but I do not recall etc. so imagine that they would be later than 100AD.
Pat Heigham
According to bibleinfo.com the 12 were:
| Peter | Andrew | Judas | Philip | ||
| James | Bartholomew or Nathaniel | Jude or Thaddeus | Simon the Zealot | ||
| John | James, the Lesser or Younger | Matthew or Levi | Thomas | ||
http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/who-were-twelve-disciples
They probably drank wine as a result of Roman winemaking expertise introduced well before the birth of Christ:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome_and_wine
I had wondered if wine drinking was preferable to consuming rather ‘iffy’ water – suspect this may have been the case in Britain, where people drank ale or gin! Certainly, the Romans introduced wine making into Britain after their conquest.
I’m raising a toast to the Romans!
If it wasn’t for them, we might not have wine, some straight roads etc. but when it comes to ‘rendering unto Caesar’, that has a new name- HMRC!
Dave Plowman
And, of course Christ was born a Jew. Jews don’t ban alcohol.
Small beer was, if I recall correctly, the method of creating water pure enough to drink. Gin is too strong to be a substitute. It’s the brewing process that tends to kill bugs rather than the alcohol produced. That in the form of Gin killed thousands.
Pat Heigham
I’ve always wondered that the phase that Mary (Mother of Jesus) was a virgin, (i.e. had not had sexual intercourse) had been mistranslated as a woman who had not yet born a child.
As Mary’s husband was a carpenter and they had been married some time previous to the census gathering, I don’t believe that he hadn’t had his leg-over before the journey!
So maybe the writings of the time reflected a censorship?
Alec Bray
Virgo – a young girl of marriageable age. A Virgo Intacta hasn’t been tampered with.
Peter Cook
Betrothed perhaps but not by all accounts married at the time of the annunciation. Hence the significance of his encounter with the angel in a dream. I know that it is still some way to Christmas but here is yet another translation of that story.
"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son".
Nick Ware
My wife, Judi, has an aunt who has been in a loving and devoted non-consummated marriage for over 50 years, and from day one they have always slept in separate bedrooms.
I could never comprehend the notion that my parents had ever had sex, but given they had three children, they must have done it at least three times!
It’s not impossible (apparently!).
But whatever, as far as the Virgin Mary is concerned, to quote the age-old journalistic truism: never let the truth get in the way of a good story! Of course though, it was presumably a way of giving credibility to the idea that Jesus was the son of God, not the son of Joseph.
At the end of the day, you believe what you want to believe – or not.
David Denness
The Romans were very particular about keeping records of anything and everything that happened in their dominions, but there is no record of the census mentioned in the bible, or of the trial of a rebel leader and subsequent crucifixion in any of their contemporary records.
Roger Bunce
The Romans did, indeed, keep records, but very few of them have survived into the present day.
In fact, Jesus and the crucifixion are briefly mentioned by Tacitus, who is probably the most reliable Roman historian of the period.
==
…auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiablilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque…. “Annals” Book 15, Chapter 44 (written ca. AD 116). **
==
I think there are three ancient (Greek and Roman) historians (not including the Christian ones) who mention Jesus as a historical character, whereas, for comparison, there are only two who mention Boudicca (Boadicea). So, although it is impossible to be certain about anything or anyone that long ago, Jesus is more likely to have been a historical character than Boudicca – and no one questions her reality.
And, of course, if characters like Jesus (or, indeed, Mohamed) didn’t exist, then you’ll have to invent an extraordinary complex conspiracy theory to explain the continuing existence of the religions they founded.
Peter Cook
On the other hand ‘Antiquities of the Jews’ written by Josephus (c.93-94 AD) is widely accepted as historically authentic. Josephus was both a Jew and a Roman citizen. (like Saul / Paul) And documents both Jesus the Messiah and John the Baptist. Perhaps the alleged lack of Roman documentation was a result of their version of our official secrets act?
Dave Mundy
Recent TV programs have cast doubt on all of the crucifixion story and have suggested that Mary Magdalene was God’s real messenger and was labelled as a whore to discredit her – we will never know for sure, that’s why I was told never talk about politics and religion as everyone has their own ideas about it all.
[Ed: And yes it was Dave who started this thread ….as a tongue –in –cheek off topic …]
Roger Bunce
By "Recent TV programmes" you presumably mean "The Da Vinci Code". There’s nothing in the Bible to suggest she was a whore.
Dave Mundy
No, it was a programme that my wife had downloaded, I think it was one of the ‘Secret History’ series. “The Da Vinci Code” was very similar to a book which I had many years ago called “The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail” written by two BBC chaps, I think. They sued Dan Brown for plagiarism but he won!
Roger Bunce
One of those two was Henry Lincoln, who also wrote the “Doctor Who” story ‘Web of Fear’ (As recounted in my commentary on episode one!) He’s an absolutely brilliant storyteller, which is why he is such an effective Conspiracy Theorist. The way he tells it, you believe every word. It’s only in the cold light of day that you think to yourself – Hang on! That was total cobblers!
He presented a superb series for BBC’s ‘Chronicle’, about the mysteries surrounding the French village of Rennes-le-Château.
This was where his theories about the Merovingian Kings of France and the bloodline of Mary Magdalene first started to take shape.
They only sued Dan Brown to get publicity for their book!
Graeme Wall
On the other hand, their book got a resurgence in sales on the back of “The Da Vinci Code” so the court case turned out to be good publicity for them.
I read “The Da Vinci Code” and thought it was appallingly badly written, I didn’t bother with the film.
David Brunt
One of the book’s writers was Henry Lincoln, also known as Henry Soskin from his acting days in the 1950s and 1960s.
Alec Bray
The BBC published a book in 1978 which was an anthology of the most significant programmes presented by “Chronicle”. The book was edited by Ray Sutcliffe and Tony Morrison.
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The book contained a description by Henry Lincoln of the “Chronicle” episode about the mysteries surrounding the French village of Rennes-le-Château. This was the forerunner of the book “The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail”.
David Brunt
It’s my understanding that the James 1 translation merged three or four women in the telling into one, at least two were named Mary. One a prostitute and the other Mary Magdalene. That’s where the misattribution dates from.
Graham Maunder
The ‘acknowledged’ specialist on MM is my cousin Chris Maunder, a theology professor at York University. He’s constantly sought out by the BBC and the like for interviews and his knowledge.
Not so much now after I pointed out they were all taking the piss by not even paying his expenses!
Even I was a Sunday School teacher back in the day…
Dave Buckley
My wife has tells the following story from time to time (which dates from at least 40 years ago) …
A Scottish Television OB unit was covering a Sunday morning church service.
During the sermon, the minister mentioned the Virgin Mary. The director promptly called out, “Get me the Virgin Mary, I want the Virgin Mary”, meaning “Would a camera find a suitable shot of a statue or stained glass window to illustrate what the minister was saying”.
After a few requests for the shot, a small voice came over TB: “I’ve got her telephone number, if anyone is interested!”
Bernie Newnham
I do wonder if humans need something to believe in. Short term cults rise and fall, even when they are based on things that are actually provably untrue – like the Flat Earth Society. You only have to make the mildest criticism of Apple these days and people are on you like ravenous dogs – though actually it’s just a company making huge amounts of money by locking people into an ideology. Having been brought up in a devout Catholic family, I can equate this directly with religion – and that has nothing to do with religious belief.
Keith Wicks
I remember seeing a TV programme, a few years ago, showing that a particular part of the brain is responsible for religious beliefs. And it was suggested that humans need religious beliefs. If that is the case, then people without any basis for a religion would just have to make it up. That might explain some beliefs that seem rather far fetched. I’m not going to name any — the choice is yours. I expect it’s fair enough to include bodies like the Flat Earth Society in this because, as with any religion, their followers must rely on faith, rather than logic.
Dave Plowman
There is likely some truth in that. All the addiction recovery programmes based on the 12 step system – AA, Narcotics Anonymous etc – insist you have a higher power. Not ‘God’ as such (unless it suits you) – just something spiritual, more powerful than your own will.
Re the flat earth society
I often wondered how they explained a ship disappearing over the horizon?
Mike Jordan
Back in BBC OB days, there was coverage of some bloke having sailed a long way coming back to Plymouth. We were to cover the arrival and my boss arranged for a Comms repeater in a helicopter flying out to meet him and be the first with pictures.
He apparently kept saying "Go lower to get good pictures" and so the midpoint heli did so. The signal disappeared. Much shouting until it was pointed out to him that the helicopter had gone around the spherical (almost) earth and down below the horizon and lost the signal!
Pat Heigham
I’ve just finished reading “The Store” by James Patterson. It’s a mixture of 1984 and Amazon. It’s about an on-line retailer which is bent on controlling people’s lives, with airborne drone cameras and in-their-houses surveillance – that’s the 1984 bit. They control what you ‘want’ to buy.
Amazon are doing this already, as soon as you have ordered something, you get an unwanted e-mail suggesting that you might like to purchase X, Y, Z.
Worth a read!
Roger Bunce
All is belief! We know nothing for certain.
I believe that the Earth is an oblate spheroid and that it goes round the Sun. Can I prove that by personal observation? No.
I believe in the Theory of Evolution. Have I ever seen one species evolve into another? No. It’s just a theory.
I believe in Newton’s Laws of Gravity, even though the experiments I did at school, with pendulums etc., almost always produced the wrong answer, and needed fiddling before I wrote them up! And anyway, the General Theory of Relativity has superseded all that. I also believe in the General Theory of Relativity. Can I even understand the maths? No.
All good atheists believed in the Steady State Theory, because that nasty "Big Bang Theory" was dreamt up by a Christian Priest and implied a "Let there be Light" moment of creation. But then the evidence swung in favour of the Big Bang, and it was recognised that the Steady State Theory always had been chronically flawed. So, I believe in the Big Bang – until they come up with something better. In ten years time we may be back to believing in the Great Green Arkleseizure.
I do NOT believe in Quantum Theory! I agree with Schrödinger on that one.
I always assumed that the Flat Earth Society were just having fun. But I approve of anyone who keeps open the possibility that the current consensus view of the world may be wrong.
Alasdair Lawrance
On that subject, would you care to define "nothing"?
Pat Heigham
Ah, but the Flat Earth Society lost credence when the astronauts and the Space Station were able to photograph the Earth from way out.
I wonder if the members got their subscriptions refunded? Mind you, they could protest that the photos might have been faked? “Capricorn One” (Mars landing) was a brilliant film that suggested this.
Let’s face it – we all worked in an industry of ‘make-believe’. Didn’t we?
Pity that in the BC years, there weren’t any PSC news crews around. Although, if there had been, maybe the B(BC) would have junked the footage, as there would not have been enough storage space, in spite of ‘Heavenly’ Cloud!
Ian Norman
If the earth was flat and photographed with a fish-eye lens, would it look round in the picture?
Talking of “Capricorn One”, did the American’s land on the moon or was that faked?
It was once said, the camera never lies, but we accept that it does.
Bernie Newnham
I thought it was true that transistors etc don’t work without using quantum theory, because "…Semiconductivity is a quantum mechanical phenomenon…" – I read. All beyond me – and Roger’s computer has turned into a lump of seaside sand because he didn’t believe.
Do you believe in quantums? If you believe clap your hands. Don’t let Roger’s computer die.
Roger Bunce
I think the quantum mechanical effect you’re thinking of is the one that stops bicycles falling over, when travelled, and enables aeroplanes to fly upside down!
Pat Heigham
Re: Transistors:
It may have been a Wood Norton Lecture that was trying to explain the workings of transistors. I could understand the flow of current along a conductor and AC/DC practicality, but the idea of ‘holes’ flowing around totally baffled me.
However, the idea of circuits being either ‘off’ or ‘on’ leading to the development of computer’s internal switching was totally brilliant.
What is rather worrying is the prospect of Artificial Intelligence being introduced into our life style – might this be a ‘Big Brother – 1984’ scenario? Cars that drive themselves – wait for the first major crash! Lorries that travel in convoy, without a driver? It’s bad enough with one.
Ian Norman
Re: If the earth was flat and photographed with a fish-eye lens, would it look round in the picture?
Dunno, Interesting theory, though I’ve flown to Australia, and did not experience a huge 180 degree tilt as we flew over the supposed flat earth edge.
One wonders if the subscribers to the Flat Earth theory have actually taken a flight to the other hemisphere.
Roger Bunce
That flight to Australia – you seem to be assuming that Australia is on the UNDERSIDE of the Flat Earth. Don’t be silly! It would fall off.
Ian Norman
Re: Talking of ‘Capricorn One’ did the American’s land on the moon or was that faked?
Who knows for certain – the guys that went and the footage returned seems to substantiate a real mission.
Re: It was once said, the camera never lies, but we accept that it does.
In TV and films, it does – that’s the magic!
Roger Bunce
All this talk of the Flat Earth Society has prompted me to search for Patrick Moore’s "One Pair of Eyes: Do You Speak Venusian" (1969) – and it’s there, on YouTube! – at least two different postings. If you haven’t seen it, have a look. It’s a delight. It involves a youthful Patrick Moore interviewing assorted bonkers eccentrics . . . and I can guess what you’re thinking at this point . . . but these characters make Patrick Moore look completely conventional! They include Flat Earthers and Hollow Earthers, Alien Contactees, etc. Patrick calls them ‘Free Thinkers’ and talks to them without a hint of sarcasm or ridicule. The programme has now gained an additional period charm.
Sir Patrick Moore – One Pair of Eyes – Can you Speak Venusian – 1969
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Roger Bunce
All these allegations about a spherical Earth have – in a lateral thinking sort of way – reminded of a Special Effects shoot, in the old Puppet Theatre, off TC5.
I walked in, first thing in the morning, to find that the Vis F/X guys (Matt Irvine and Steve Bowmen, I think) had just finished rigging a beautiful globe of planet Earth in front of an overlay background.
My opening line was, "That’s a lovely blue planet you’ve rigged in front of that blue flat."
They both froze, rotated stiffly to look at their handiwork and, in prefect unison, said, "Oh, Shit!"
Bernie Newnham
Let’s Go to Golgotha! –
https://jesusstoriesblacknall.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/lets-go-to-golgotha.pdf
Roger Bunce
I have vague memories of another, sillier, tale of time-travel tourism, but this one recognised that every time a tour party went to see a historical event, that that tour party would still be there when later tour parties arrived. Thus, an event which was originally only witnessed by a handful of people would gradually accumulate larger and larger crowds on onlookers. The tour guides, who visited the same event several times, would have to wear different disguises each time, so that it wasn’t too obvious that the same face reappeared several times in the crowd. Eventually, a particular theatre became so crowded, that John Wilkes Booth couldn’t get in, and the event that everyone had come to see, the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, didn’t happen!
Geoff Fletcher
Read "Behold The Man" by Michael Moorcock, for a thought provoking take on time travel to witness the Crucifixion.
——————————————————–
** Translation (a free translation)
“… Christ, from whom the [Christians] get their name, was put to death during the reign of Tiberius by procurator Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the origin of the evil, but even in the town [Rome], to where all things atrocious and shameless flow from all parts and become popular…”
