John Nottage
What went wrong with “Strictly…” last night (Saturday 19th November 2016)? Apart from the VT inserts, everything was out of lip sync – sometimes only a little, sometimes quite a lot. It seemed to be different for different cameras, something I remember happening from my horse racing days. There didn’t seem to be any attempt to correct it. I didn’t see who provided the OB facilities. It’ll be interesting to see how it is on the Results show.
David Denness
I agree. The HD signal seemed to be worse than SD. I’m sure there won’t be any difference with the results show as one follows the other.
Pat Heigham
I believe that a number of factors affect the sync of sound to picture with digital generation.
The encoding (and decoding at the viewer’s receiver) varies depending on the ‘busyness’ of the picture. That could explain the difference between cameras. Today’s ‘smart’ sets and some BluRay players incorporate an audio delay circuit, but attempting to chase sync on something like the News varies so much depending on the programme material, that I usually give up.
I find it harder to recognise the error when sound leads – it’s easier to spot when sound is lagging.
Could the decoding of 5.1 have any bearing on the timing element?
Is there a reason for this very irritating effect.
Did there used to be a coding system of ‘Sound in Syncs’? Would that work today?
Chris Woolf
The problem is that there are lots of reasons – never “a” reason.
Old fashioned analogue SiS took real-time sound and coded it into the sync area of picture. There was a small delay in digitising it but otherwise this was all analogue stuff and thus naturally time-correlated. It is only when video starts to become stored at some point in the distribution chain that you begin to get gross timing errors coming in.
With individual cameras being frame-stored to get them studio-synchronous, link systems that use data compression and indeed have to slow down a bit if the picture has too much detail in it, multiple coding systems during the process of recording and distributing to a TX… and then the customer’s receiver having to decode the audio and video streams, and perhaps wait for the TV display to reorder and convert the picture parts to fit onto a different screen resolution…. it is more surprising that any of the sound maintains some sort of event-sync relationship with the picture at all. All these systems impose a signal delay, that may or may not be constant, and may need periodic resynchronising in individual stages.
In the bad old days sync meant sync – perfect alignment of two signal streams in terms of speed and phase. Then we started accepting crystal locked stuff that was really plesiochronous1 – nominally correct speed but no phase relationship – so it could never be better than ±1 frame. Gradually we’ve been nudged into feeling grateful if event sync is approximately correct, and wobbles around that point rather than drifting increasingly out of kilter.
Ideally the sound and picture would have identical time-stamps that were propagated through the distribution chain from end to end, but there’s been no overall “mind” in control of technical development, as there used to be in the bad old days of the BEEB, ITCA, ITU etc, so trying to unravel the piecemeal approach, that a wide variety of manufacturers have come up with, is impossible now. It’s a capitalistic way of dealing with things – the most powerful player in a particular area pushes what is commercially best for them, with zero regard for what might be best overall. Where standards are concerned the more dictatorial, academic path often produces better results, but that world is unlikely to come back into favour.
We’re stuck with what’s there, I’m afraid.
Nick Ware
She Who Must Be Obeyed asked: “How is it they can get perfect lip sync all the way from the Australian jungle to here, but not from Blackpool?”
She has a valid point!
Dave Plowman
I remember a week of “Newsnight”s where a substantial part of the live broadcast came from Scotland every night. And it was always out of sync.
If I were specifying the sound desk for that sort of prog, I’d include a variable delay in each channel, as in 99% of cases of out-of-sync the sound is leading the picture – which is totally unnatural.
David Denness
I disagree totally about when the delay is more noticeable. It has long been recognised that sound behind pictures is more readily accepted by the brain as it is used to sound arriving after light because of their relative speeds. This is medically recognised as a fact.
Modern HD TV cameras are always 20ms delayed because of the way the picture is constructed, RF cameras often considerably more, I or even 2 frames.
Producers and directors are normally pretty good at avoiding shooting people talking on RF cameras because of this difference, but sometimes this is unavoidable, maybe the designated line camera dies. The sound mixer with a digital desk can normally dial in the requisite amount of delay if forewarned.
A couple of other things about “Strictly…” really irritate me though. The mindless cheering and applauding during dance routines, and more especially a guest singer or instrumentalist on the results shows. Also why on earth on a programme about dance can you so often not see the dancers’ feet? Surely that should be one of the first principles on a show like this. I know both Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly absolutely insisted on it in their films.
Pat Heigham
If I am trying to chase sync with the audio delay circuit, I personally find it more difficult to establish sound ahead.
I heartily endorse the criticism of not showing the dancers’ feet with the Steadicam circling camera. Fred always insisted on being shot ‘head to toe’.
From Wikipedia:
“…Astaire was also given complete autonomy over how the dances would be presented, allowing him to revolutionize dance on film. He is credited with two important innovations in early film musicals. First, he insisted that an almost stationary camera film a dance routine in a single shot, if possible, while holding the dancers in full view at all times. Astaire famously quipped: “Either the camera will dance, or I will.” Astaire maintained this policy from The Gay Divorcee in 1934 onwards until his last film musical, Finian’s Rainbow, made in 1968, when he was overruled by director Francis Ford Coppola.”
The judges on “Strictly …” can view the feet, so the voting audience should be able to as well. Perhaps the director is too young to have seen any of the Astaire/Rogers films, doesn’t know – or hasn’t bothered! Perhaps a letter to the Radio Times?
I think I absorbed a love of dance films from my mother. On her way to a war-effort knitting session in 1942, where the other women, having merely established that her husband was fighting the war in the North African desert, ignored her. The bus stopped outside a cinema advertising an Astaire/Rogers film. She thought, “Blow this, I’m going to see that, instead”. She may have been expecting me at the time.
Dave Howell
I agree that in a dancing competition it is paramount to keep the dancing feet in shot, but of course this is an Entertainment Show!
….and as a Gram Op for many years, having spent considerable time in Sypher suites syncing up alternative takes and wild tracks to frame accuracy, today’s wubbewy lipths have me crying into my beer.
Peter Neill
Normally the show is produced from a fixed-rig studio at Elstree. When it was in TC1 it was necessary for it to decamp on “Children in Need” weekend. Blackpool was chosen as the venue and that tradition has been maintained.
As we all know there is a great difference between a controlled studio set up and (in the nicest possible way) an OB lash-up.
I’m sure when they all get back to Elstree this week (26 Nov 2106) we’ll get to know what went wrong.
Tony Scott
Mike Skipper on Facebook – here’s the post:
“… I think I might have found out the cause of the lip sync error on the HD transmission of last night’s “Strictly Come Dancing” and I believe the answer lies with Dolby Digital Surround Audio.
I pulled the show over to one of my computers from my Humax recorder yesterday evening and had a quick look at the show, so that I could get an idea of how much I would have to slip the audio by – only to find that the pictures and sound were in sync !! When I played the footage back directly from the recorder on to my television, once again the pictures and sound were correctly synchronised.
Dolby Surround is notoriously difficult to monitor at source (nigh on impossible would be a better explanation!) and there are a whole raft of reasons for audio to slip at various points in the broadcast chain (something called Metadata would be the first thing that I would look into).
My Humax box recorded the show with what appears to be stereo audio – if this was the same signal that found its way on to the standard definition version of BBC One yesterday evening (which was okay) then this would explain rather a lot.
I have a funny feeling that my television defaults to decoding Dolby Surround audio whenever it gets a sniff of the signal (difficult to prove until the next transmission that I will not be working on).
If anyone else experiences lip sync issues on future transmissions, I would suggest looking at the audio settings on your television and try switching between one of the normal stereo options and whatever surround options you may have available…”
Bernie Newnham
I wonder how many in the audience were listening in Dolby surround? About 2 I should think.
John Hoare
Make that three! I reckon surround is brilliant and adds a huge amount to some shows including “Strictly…” – why is the Dance-off not in surround? – but not the sports trails which are one Gary to camera! Could someone explain to Sport where the 5.1 switch is?
John Nottage
Strictly Results (20th November 2016) was in sync! We started on SD and it was fine so switched to HD – still fine.
We were watching the Saturday show via a small time shift off the disc recorder, but that’s the way we watch most TV. Anything with adverts gets recorded – saves hours from our lives jumping the ads. All that we record is in sync. I can’t remember the last recording that had a sync problem, if ever, so I’m happy that it’s not my machine. The other factor was the way the sync changed from live to VT, and even varying with different cameras. The fault must have been in Blackpool and they must have known and fixed it after the live show was off air.
Dave Plowman
It’s a common ‘suit’ response I’ve heard on air many times –“… it could be your set…”. Some of us have more than one.
Pat Heigham
I watched the Strictly Results on a Samsung smart TV, and dialled in an audio delay of 60mS which made it acceptable. Different manufacturers have different builds, so a losing battle, there.
Dave Plowman
I’m sure it’s possible to correct a transmission fault on your own set under certain circumstances. The point would be why should you have to?
Most modern TVs will have the sound synchronised to suit their own electronic design. But not something that needs altering for different programmes off air.
Alec Bray
Interesting, this discussion!
We recorded Saturday’s “Strictly…” (19th November) on a VirginMedia Tivo box from a Virgin cable transmission, and on replay we did not notice ANY out-of-sync sequences!
I have confirmed this with She who controls the remote!
Brian Curtis
We also usually watch “Strictly…” as a recorded programme from our BT YouView box and don’t normally notice any loss of sync. Personally I can’t speak for this weekend as I away in Italy but will enquire with the “remote manager” when I get back. In the mean time “keep tweaking”!
Terry Meadowcroft
I recorded Strictly on my Sky box, 5.1, and the sync was fine on playback. I have to delay by 50mS on my surround receiver but this is always the case with surround Sky box recordings.
The lip synch feature on my surround amp is a heavily used feature – don’t know where I would be without it!
Peter Leverick
My wife watched it live and reported “…lip-sync was out some of the time…”.
I watched it back on my Virgin Media Tivo box in HD on a Samsung Smart TV, and all the ‘live’ stuff was out of sync by 3 or 4 frames (Sound ahead of picture ), but all the prerecorded stuff was only out by one frame max.
The results show was all in-sync, both live and on Virgin Media Catchup.
So I guess it could be the TV decoding at fault, depending what audio options are being transmitted.
However, on the same Samsung Smart TV, BBC iPlayer, everything was perfect sync-wise.
I heartily agree with sentiments regarding keeping feet in shot. “Camera ‘X’ – Keep the bl**dy feet in” was almost Stuart Morris’s catchphrase.
Alec Bray
Aha! Our “Strictly…” was from a Virgin Media Tivo box in STANDARD DEFINITION on a Samsung Smart TV – and, as I mentioned, with no out of sync moments.
By the way, if we switch TV to HD, the sound level is very different and we have to turn up the volume.
Alasdair Lawrance
I have the same problem with sound levels, compounded by the regional opt-out for news. I used to think it was the YTS running things, but apparently not. We’ve been over this before, anyway!
Dave Plowman
It’s odd. Sometimes it is here – but not always. I’d put it down to things which might be mixed in surround – which I don’t have.
Alec Bray
If “…everything was out of lip sync…” it would mean that the music was out of sync with the pictures – which in turn would make the viewer think that the dancers were dancing out of time/out-of- step.
Miranda Hart on “Strictly It Takes Two” on the Friday show after the Blackpool strictly said that she thought that Danny and Ote were a little bit out of time on their Charleston, but she also said that she replayed the dances over and over, so perhaps her recordings were correctly in sync.
“A little bit out of time”
Philip Tyler
I think this show has been around for a while but passed me by till just now.
“Lip Sync Battle UK” (a musical reality competition television series).
On digital television? How are we ever to know if anyone achieves lip sync?
Muffled Sound
Dave Plowman
This time – HIGNFY – Episode TX 11 November 2016 – which I watched via iPlayer.
Audience sound was if anything over bright. And loud. Panel mics muffled. I didn’t recognise the sound credit – perhaps someone new? It’s normally OK here.
Peter Neill
Russell Smithson: he seems to have done a few … (IMDB).
Dave Plowman
I wonder why this one was different to the others, then? I don’t think it would be the iPlayer since the music etc sounded normal.
Keith Wicks
Relax. At last they’ve found a way to avoid muffled sound!
According to “Radio Times” for the coming week (published 10 Nov 2016), page 138, a follow-up to “Cathy Come Home” was recorded for Radio 4 on mobile phones. Of course, I am assuming they didn’t stick those inside people’s thick coats.
1 A plesiochronous system is one where different parts of the system are almost, but not quite, perfectly synchronised.
