From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 06:46:44 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 12:46:44 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Pop goes Newsnight In-Reply-To: References: <87BED381-75C8-4591-B22C-3E8622065AF0@mac.com> Message-ID: <1a5bddb1-e614-dc4e-4580-84cd3b1683f2@gmail.com> Yes - some nice snippets on there. Shows me how out of touch I'd be if had to go back to work. And today mentioned another Newsnight funny (I round off my day watching it) A Tory Lord was brought in to defend the government's position on teacher etc strikes. And his phone rang. Not once, but on three occasions. And after he had finished, an off mic distant voice could be heard. My guess is he returned the call before leaving the studio. But, of course, being a Lord, way above observing the rules the rest of us do. ;-). On 31/01/2023 19:31, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: > Yes, me too. Worth joining even if only in a passive mode. Even better > for anyone with a real interest in latest techniques, inside info and > audio technology is the IPS, needless to say. > N. > > Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > >> On 31 Jan 2023, at 18:49, paul--- via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ? >> Yes Mike, >> I have been a member for a few years. A bit of a sound biase as Rob >> who admins it is x LWT sound, but quite a broad range of members >> across most broadcasters. >> >> Paul Thackray >> >> PGT Media Consulting Ltd. >> >> +44 7802 243979 >> >> Mail; paul at pgtmedia.co.uk >> >> Web; http://www.pgtmedia.co.uk >> >> Linkedin; http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/paul-thackray/19/379/746 >> >> >> IMDB; http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1488554/ >> >> >> *From:* tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> *Sent:* 31 January 2023 19:01 >> *To:* tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> *Reply to:* mibridge at mac.com >> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Pop goes Newsnight >> >> >> Has anybody joined this group? >> >> Mike G >> >> >> >>> On 31 Jan 2023, at 11:08, Hugh Snape via Tech1 >> > wrote: >>> >>> FYI: >>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/411248849080553/permalink/2063978667140888/ >>> >>>> On 31 Jan 2023, at 08:41, Hugh Snape via Tech1 >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> ?Absolutely agree Dave, I also hate the modern habit of giving >>>> reporters a 416 in a basket windshield + windjammer, or a softie, to >>>> use for a PTC. I think it began during lockdown when suddenly it was >>>> acceptable to have fish poles and mics in shot in the interests of >>>> social distancing. Fair enough at the time but the habit has >>>> persisted. Alan Whicker churned out excellent sound with a little >>>> hand held STC, what?s gone wrong? >>>> >>>> Hugh Snape >>>> >>>>> On 30 Jan 2023, at 23:50, Dave Plowman via Tech1 >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ?It was an OB for Milton Keynes tonight about the 'B' word. >>>>> Questions from an audience. With a few radio hand-mics passed >>>>> around them. Hideous great things, and despite the size, popping >>>>> like the clappers. Does no-one really make a suitable mic for >>>>> speech these days? ?Os is the BBC now so poor it can't afford them? >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>>>> >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > From pat.heigham at amps.net Wed Feb 1 07:28:55 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 13:28:55 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Pop goes Newsnight In-Reply-To: <1a5bddb1-e614-dc4e-4580-84cd3b1683f2@gmail.com> References: <87BED381-75C8-4591-B22C-3E8622065AF0@mac.com> <1a5bddb1-e614-dc4e-4580-84cd3b1683f2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <897236f4-6615-bfe4-3d0d-9a7ed862f8bd@amps.net> Lordy, lordy, Maybe a floor assistant manager (are there any today?) Should check that phones are switched off, or confiscated. (Joan Marsden - Mother, where are you?) I had the dubious pleasure of recording an interview with Archer. He gave each of us a copy of his latest book. His poor secretary got bawled out for presenting paperbacks for signing, he insisted on hardcover for us. So I have that! I'm appalled that having been convicted of perjury, the Lord title was not rescinded. But that ain't possible. On 01/02/2023 12:46, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: > And today mentioned another Newsnight funny (I round off my day > watching it) A Tory Lord was brought in to defend the government's > position on teacher etc strikes. And his phone rang. Not once, but on > three occasions. And after he had finished, an off mic distant voice > could be heard. My guess is he returned the call before leaving the > studio. But, of course, being a Lord, way above observing the rules > the rest of us do. ;-). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Wed Feb 1 09:37:54 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 15:37:54 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Pop goes Newsnight In-Reply-To: <897236f4-6615-bfe4-3d0d-9a7ed862f8bd@amps.net> References: <897236f4-6615-bfe4-3d0d-9a7ed862f8bd@amps.net> Message-ID: Barbara Cartland was another one who insisted on handing out signed copies of her books to the crew. The cameraman I was working with had been pre-warned not to bring any lights. He assumed the interview was going to be recorded outside. When we arrived at her home, she produced her own set of lights ( redheads etc and a LOT of soft light ) and gave him a diagram showing exactly where each lamp was to be placed. She had obviously worked with cameramen where she didn?t care for the end result and decided to get somebody to get the right kit for her and show her how it should be set up in order to be as flattering as possible. Alan > On 1 Feb 2023, at 13:29, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > ? > Lordy, lordy, > > Maybe a floor assistant manager (are there any today?) Should check that phones are switched off, or confiscated. > (Joan Marsden - Mother, where are you?) > I had the dubious pleasure of recording an interview with Archer. > He gave each of us a copy of his latest book. His poor secretary got bawled out for presenting paperbacks for signing, > he insisted on hardcover for us. > > So I have that! > I'm appalled that having been convicted of perjury, the Lord title was not rescinded. > But that ain't possible. > > > > On 01/02/2023 12:46, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: >> And today mentioned another Newsnight funny (I round off my day watching it) A Tory Lord was brought in to defend the government's position on teacher etc strikes. And his phone rang. Not once, but on three occasions. And after he had finished, an off mic distant voice could be heard. My guess is he returned the call before leaving the studio. But, of course, being a Lord, way above observing the rules the rest of us do. ;-). > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamthecameraman at icloud.com Wed Feb 1 10:47:13 2023 From: grahamthecameraman at icloud.com (Graham Maunder) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 16:47:13 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Pop goes Newsnight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57DF0034-58E2-4640-BAD2-5828722D8668@icloud.com> Alan I have to admit I was the cameraman that provided those!!! I did a shoot with her once and she liked it so much she made me fax (remember those?!!) her my lighting plan. She then asked to buy them so she could have them there for other crew. The light that swayed her was a redhead with spun on it underneath the camera lens. She later asked me to replace that with a 2k blonde!! The ultimate irony occurred when I was booked to do another job with her years later and I was sent a very tired looking copy of my own lighting plan! You?re right about the signed books though and she also insisted on the crew staying for tea and sandwiches after the interview. Happy memories Graham Maunder Sent from my iPhone > On 1 Feb 2023, at 15:38, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > > ? > Barbara Cartland was another one who insisted on handing out signed copies of her books to the crew. The cameraman I was working with had been pre-warned not to bring any lights. He assumed the interview was going to be recorded outside. When we arrived at her home, she produced her own set of lights ( redheads etc and a LOT of soft light ) and gave him a diagram showing exactly where each lamp was to be placed. > > She had obviously worked with cameramen where she didn?t care for the end result and decided to get somebody to get the right kit for her and show her how it should be set up in order to be as flattering as possible. > > Alan > > > >>> On 1 Feb 2023, at 13:29, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> >> ? >> Lordy, lordy, >> >> Maybe a floor assistant manager (are there any today?) Should check that phones are switched off, or confiscated. >> (Joan Marsden - Mother, where are you?) >> I had the dubious pleasure of recording an interview with Archer. >> He gave each of us a copy of his latest book. His poor secretary got bawled out for presenting paperbacks for signing, >> he insisted on hardcover for us. >> >> So I have that! >> I'm appalled that having been convicted of perjury, the Lord title was not rescinded. >> But that ain't possible. >> >> >> >> On 01/02/2023 12:46, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: >>> And today mentioned another Newsnight funny (I round off my day watching it) A Tory Lord was brought in to defend the government's position on teacher etc strikes. And his phone rang. Not once, but on three occasions. And after he had finished, an off mic distant voice could be heard. My guess is he returned the call before leaving the studio. But, of course, being a Lord, way above observing the rules the rest of us do. ;-). >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Wed Feb 1 11:37:53 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 17:37:53 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Pop goes Newsnight In-Reply-To: <57DF0034-58E2-4640-BAD2-5828722D8668@icloud.com> References: <57DF0034-58E2-4640-BAD2-5828722D8668@icloud.com> Message-ID: I didn?t know it was you, but you did a great job and she clearly liked the result. Let?s just say that at that age, lighting-wise, she needed all the help she could get. I remember the low soft light and that?s why I referred to LOTS of soft light. If pushed I would have guessed it was a 2k blonde, but I wasn't 100% certain exactly which show it was because around that time I also did a lot of other interviews with people of a similar age where shedloads of light was reflected off sheets of poly for similar reasons. I do remember the books, sandwiches, cakes and bone china. I wasn?t expecting it, but on the other hand, I couldn?t imagine her offering us tea in mugs and Hobnobs. My favourite story about celebrity supplied crew snacks concerns Norma Major. We spent two mornings at John Major?s house doing a high profile interview by David Frost. The first morning she brought us a huge tray with beautifully made bridge rolls, and immaculate home made patisserie. One of the sparks mentioned to her that we were grateful that she went to so much trouble, but something like bacon rolls would be much less trouble. Obviously it wasn?t Norma who did the catering, but she asked the rather grand lady who did cook all her posh food to provide the crew with bacon rolls tomorrow. The next day we were treated to mini croissants, filled with Camembert and wrapped in bacon. Alan > On 1 Feb 2023, at 16:47, Graham Maunder wrote: > > ?Alan > > I have to admit I was the cameraman that provided those!!! I did a shoot with her once and she liked it so much she made me fax (remember those?!!) her my lighting plan. She then asked to buy them so she could have them there for other crew. The light that swayed her was a redhead with spun on it underneath the camera lens. She later asked me to replace that with a 2k blonde!! > > The ultimate irony occurred when I was booked to do another job with her years later and I was sent a very tired looking copy of my own lighting plan! > > You?re right about the signed books though and she also insisted on the crew staying for tea and sandwiches after the interview. > > Happy memories > > Graham Maunder > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On 1 Feb 2023, at 15:38, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: >>> >> ? >> Barbara Cartland was another one who insisted on handing out signed copies of her books to the crew. The cameraman I was working with had been pre-warned not to bring any lights. He assumed the interview was going to be recorded outside. When we arrived at her home, she produced her own set of lights ( redheads etc and a LOT of soft light ) and gave him a diagram showing exactly where each lamp was to be placed. >> >> She had obviously worked with cameramen where she didn?t care for the end result and decided to get somebody to get the right kit for her and show her how it should be set up in order to be as flattering as possible. >> >> Alan >> >> >> >>>> On 1 Feb 2023, at 13:29, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>>> >>> ? >>> Lordy, lordy, >>> >>> Maybe a floor assistant manager (are there any today?) Should check that phones are switched off, or confiscated. >>> (Joan Marsden - Mother, where are you?) >>> I had the dubious pleasure of recording an interview with Archer. >>> He gave each of us a copy of his latest book. His poor secretary got bawled out for presenting paperbacks for signing, >>> he insisted on hardcover for us. >>> >>> So I have that! >>> I'm appalled that having been convicted of perjury, the Lord title was not rescinded. >>> But that ain't possible. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 01/02/2023 12:46, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: >>>> And today mentioned another Newsnight funny (I round off my day watching it) A Tory Lord was brought in to defend the government's position on teacher etc strikes. And his phone rang. Not once, but on three occasions. And after he had finished, an off mic distant voice could be heard. My guess is he returned the call before leaving the studio. But, of course, being a Lord, way above observing the rules the rest of us do. ;-). >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Wed Feb 1 14:21:37 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 20:21:37 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Pop goes Newsnight In-Reply-To: References: <57DF0034-58E2-4640-BAD2-5828722D8668@icloud.com> Message-ID: Working with a cameraman who built a wall of poly, made it difficult to get a boom in, but having known him as a clapper-loader, I was pleased for him when he got a feature. I don't know if anything special was arranged for Sophia Loren, on a movie I worked on, but Winner was frightfully obsequious, when: " It's time for your close-up, Sophia." The DoP was Bob Paynter, with whom I had worked previously, and the story I love, concerned Bob leaving the stage at Shepperton to go to the gents, with Michael following him, yelling at him. Bob's riposte was: "Michael - I can only deal with one SHIT at a time!" It was good to chat with Sophia about an earlier film, and she was lovely to converse with. I found the BBC training invaluable in sussing out the Director of Photography?s lighting plot, to see which lamps would give problems for the mike boom. I had one shoot, working on my own, (no boom op) to cover a forum discussion with students on raked seating. Camera centre front. The ?inexperienced?(in my view) cameraman plonked a 2K right behind the camera and then wondered why there was a mike shadow on the back wall, as at the full stretch of the Panamic pole I was going for a chatty bloke at the very back. Two solutions: move the key light sideways, or do a bit of research as to who might pose decent questions and move them to the front row! From the excellent training received at BBC TV, I was always able to ask lighting cameramen to drop the key a couple of feet, or move it a bit sideways, as that would throw a shadow out of frame. Only one time was this refused, so Plan B! I would not have dared to challenge Freddie Young, but he was very aware of lighting for a boom: One commercial I worked on, shot at Hatchlands, a National Trust property near my home (probably the nearest location I?ve ever had!), was the first Nescafe Gold Blend of the subsequent series. The DoP was none other than the great Freddie Young. He paused by the sound table and enquired who was the boom operator. Me! Asked me my name and said: ?I?m Freddie, and you won?t have any problems?. Standing in the artistes? position, I took a look ? perfectly textbook standard 3-point lighting ? key, back, soft fill. A lovely man! On a job at the beginning of Charles and Diana - a shoot with one of D's great mates. Carol Thatcher had set it up, and trotted off to the greasy spoon at the end of the road to get us teas/coffees/bacon sarnies. I was mightily impressed witn her! Another story from the film world -? Barbra Streisand interviewed Dop's and asked the question:"How will you light me?" All avoided the obvious, except David Watkin, who apparently went up to her, put his finger on her nose and said - that's going to be a problem! He got the job! Pat On 01/02/2023 17:37, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > I didn?t know it was you, but you did a great job and she clearly liked the result. Let?s just say that at that age, lighting-wise, she needed all the help she could get. I remember the low soft light and that?s why I referred to LOTS of soft light. If pushed I would have guessed it was a 2k blonde, but I wasn't 100% certain exactly which show it was because around that time I also did a lot of other interviews with people of a similar age where shedloads of light was reflected off sheets of poly for similar reasons. > > I do remember the books, sandwiches, cakes and bone china. I wasn?t expecting it, but on the other hand, I couldn?t imagine her offering us tea in mugs and Hobnobs. > > My favourite story about celebrity supplied crew snacks concerns Norma Major. We spent two mornings at John Major?s house doing a high profile interview by David Frost. The first morning she brought us a huge tray with beautifully made bridge rolls, and immaculate home made patisserie. One of the sparks mentioned to her that we were grateful that she went to so much trouble, but something like bacon rolls would be much less trouble. > > Obviously it wasn?t Norma who did the catering, but she asked the rather grand lady who did cook all her posh food to provide the crew with bacon rolls tomorrow. The next day we were treated to mini croissants, filled with Camembert and wrapped in bacon. > > Alan > > >> On 1 Feb 2023, at 16:47, Graham Maunder wrote: >> >> ?Alan >> >> I have to admit I was the cameraman that provided those!!! I did a shoot with her once and she liked it so much she made me fax (remember those?!!) her my lighting plan. She then asked to buy them so she could have them there for other crew. The light that swayed her was a redhead with spun on it underneath the camera lens. She later asked me to replace that with a 2k blonde!! >> >> The ultimate irony occurred when I was booked to do another job with her years later and I was sent a very tired looking copy of my own lighting plan! >> >> You?re right about the signed books though and she also insisted on the crew staying for tea and sandwiches after the interview. >> >> Happy memories >> >> Graham Maunder >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On 1 Feb 2023, at 15:38, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: >>>> >>> ? >>> Barbara Cartland was another one who insisted on handing out signed copies of her books to the crew. The cameraman I was working with had been pre-warned not to bring any lights. He assumed the interview was going to be recorded outside. When we arrived at her home, she produced her own set of lights ( redheads etc and a LOT of soft light ) and gave him a diagram showing exactly where each lamp was to be placed. >>> >>> She had obviously worked with cameramen where she didn?t care for the end result and decided to get somebody to get the right kit for her and show her how it should be set up in order to be as flattering as possible. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>>>> On 1 Feb 2023, at 13:29, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>>>> >>>> ? >>>> Lordy, lordy, >>>> >>>> Maybe a floor assistant manager (are there any today?) Should check that phones are switched off, or confiscated. >>>> (Joan Marsden - Mother, where are you?) >>>> I had the dubious pleasure of recording an interview with Archer. >>>> He gave each of us a copy of his latest book. His poor secretary got bawled out for presenting paperbacks for signing, >>>> he insisted on hardcover for us. >>>> >>>> So I have that! >>>> I'm appalled that having been convicted of perjury, the Lord title was not rescinded. >>>> But that ain't possible. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 01/02/2023 12:46, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: >>>>> And today mentioned another Newsnight funny (I round off my day watching it) A Tory Lord was brought in to defend the government's position on teacher etc strikes. And his phone rang. Not once, but on three occasions. And after he had finished, an off mic distant voice could be heard. My guess is he returned the call before leaving the studio. But, of course, being a Lord, way above observing the rules the rest of us do. ;-). >>>> -- >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Wed Feb 1 15:01:24 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 21:01:24 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Pop goes Newsnight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1cb43eb2-61c2-a701-26c5-3d39013a7ad7@amps.net> In my freelancing days, a lot of work came from ABC Sports NY. I added to my kit, an Electrovoice RE50 which was their favoured handheld mic back in the States. (Dynamic, moving coil, and good quality - also fairly immune to handling noise). When they linked up with me in Europe, they always presented me with foam windshields in various colours. I also used Rycote's mini windjammers, which fitted over the foam gags. Judging from the absence of a credit for sound recordist on many programmes, now. perhaps there is not a dedicated sound man. So the cameraman is tasked with 'doing' the sound whilst coping with getting pictures, wobbly-vision or not. Sound just happens, doesn't it? Is it being monitored, and if a problem, how is it fixed? But an OB with a scanner, should have a sound mixer, who surely would have picked up on poor pick-up. Sound just happens, doesn't it. Pat On 30/01/2023 23:50, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: > It was an OB for Milton Keynes tonight about the 'B' word. Questions > from an audience. With a few radio hand-mics passed around them. > Hideous great things, and despite the size, popping like the clappers. > Does no-one really make a suitable mic for speech these days?? Os is > the BBC now so poor it can't afford them? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nickrodger at mac.com Thu Feb 2 06:14:09 2023 From: nickrodger at mac.com (Nick Rodger) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2023 12:14:09 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Acapella multi~track. Message-ID: <852D3F8E-0EAD-46AD-A296-0F5746B043DA@mac.com> Clever Sound People, This seems very clever to me, but what do I know? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGEOwJz13WY? Stand By Me (ACAPELLA) - Ben E. King youtube.com My question is:~ Is he lip~synching? Seems very well done if he is. If he isn?t lip~synching is he using a foldback speaker? If he is using foldback, wouldn?t there be some spill over his mic? Or is there spill that I simply can?t hear? Nick. Nick Rodger Cameraman (Retired) 07971 007578 nickrodger at mac.com Don?t blame me!! I voted Remain ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 171202 bytes Desc: not available URL: From relong at btinternet.com Thu Feb 2 11:47:18 2023 From: relong at btinternet.com (Roger E Long) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2023 17:47:18 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Acapella multi~track. In-Reply-To: <852D3F8E-0EAD-46AD-A296-0F5746B043DA@mac.com> References: <852D3F8E-0EAD-46AD-A296-0F5746B043DA@mac.com> Message-ID: <2F47C245-2755-40C2-AB43-F12CE4BD1A78@btinternet.com> Lookslike playback to me Some people are good at this and he is right next to a speaker. Roger > On 2 Feb 2023, at 12:14, Nick Rodger via Tech1 wrote: > > Clever Sound People, > > This seems very clever to me, but what do I know? > > > > > > > Stand By Me (ACAPELLA) - Ben E. King > youtube.com > Stand By Me (ACAPELLA) - Ben E. King > youtube.com > > > > > > My question is:~ > > Is he lip~synching? Seems very well done if he is. > > If he isn?t lip~synching is he using a foldback speaker? > > If he is using foldback, wouldn?t there be some spill over his mic? > > Or is there spill that I simply can?t hear? > > Nick. > > > Nick Rodger > Cameraman (Retired) > 07971 007578 > nickrodger at mac.com > > Don?t blame me!! > I voted Remain ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waresound at msn.com Fri Feb 3 07:50:01 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 13:50:01 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Acapella multi~track. In-Reply-To: <852D3F8E-0EAD-46AD-A296-0F5746B043DA@mac.com> References: <852D3F8E-0EAD-46AD-A296-0F5746B043DA@mac.com> Message-ID: I think you?ll find it?s an iPad App. There are two or three such apps to choose from. Several other (some better) examples on Youtube. So, sadly, not clever sound people, but more about talented musicians. Cheers, Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 2 Feb 2023, at 12:15, Nick Rodger via Tech1 wrote: ? Clever Sound People, This seems very clever to me, but what do I know? [maxresdefault.jpg] Stand By Me (ACAPELLA) - Ben E. King youtube.com My question is:~ Is he lip~synching? Seems very well done if he is. If he isn?t lip~synching is he using a foldback speaker? If he is using foldback, wouldn?t there be some spill over his mic? Or is there spill that I simply can?t hear? Nick. Nick Rodger Cameraman (Retired) 07971 007578 nickrodger at mac.com Don?t blame me!! I voted Remain ?? -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 171202 bytes Desc: maxresdefault.jpg URL: From alanaudio at me.com Fri Feb 3 08:44:48 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 14:44:48 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] (No subject) In-Reply-To: <852D3F8E-0EAD-46AD-A296-0F5746B043DA@mac.com> References: <852D3F8E-0EAD-46AD-A296-0F5746B043DA@mac.com> Message-ID: <26661FCA-E69B-4BB0-AACC-01D62AE1B450@me.com> I don?t know how he approached this on his video, but in 1988 I did a show where Tony Robinson and Toyah Wilcox had to rap to a pre-recorded backing track in an outdoor setting. Obviously they needed to hear the track, but the quick-fire nature of the lyrics was such that miming was out of the question, it had to be performed for real. Discreet silent playback was rssential. There was no problem with Toyah, she had a huge mane of hair, so although IEM receivers weren?t really a thing in those days, a radio mic receiver did the job well and fed a cabled earpiece. Tony presented much more of a problem because his head was shaved, which meant that even a transparent acoustic tube would be highly visible on his neck. The solution I adopted was a tiny in-the-ear hearing aid which used an induction pickup. He wore a neck loop under his costume and the neck loop was fed from a similar receiver to Toyah?s. It worked incredibly well and remained invisible even on big close ups. Like I said, I have no idea how this guy actually resolved the technicalities of his recording, but simple hearing aids which fit completely within the ear canal are readily available and would work well for tasks such as this one. I?ve worked with ones using inductive pickup and others using radio transmission. The radio was easier to set up, but not particularly reliable. Inductive loops either need a cable placed around the perimeter of the performing area ( small area = ridiculously easy: large area or outdoors = problematic ) or else the performer needs to wear a neck loop which can be simply fed from a standard headphone socket. Alan > On 2 Feb 2023, at 12:14, Nick Rodger via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Clever Sound People, > > This seems very clever to me, but what do I know? > > > > > > > Stand By Me (ACAPELLA) - Ben E. King > youtube.com > > > > > > My question is:~ > > Is he lip~synching? Seems very well done if he is. > > If he isn?t lip~synching is he using a foldback speaker? > > If he is using foldback, wouldn?t there be some spill over his mic? > > Or is there spill that I simply can?t hear? > > Nick. > > > Nick Rodger > Cameraman (Retired) > 07971 007578 > nickrodger at mac.com > > Don?t blame me!! > I voted Remain ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 171202 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Fri Feb 3 09:25:11 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 15:25:11 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] (No subject) In-Reply-To: <26661FCA-E69B-4BB0-AACC-01D62AE1B450@me.com> References: <852D3F8E-0EAD-46AD-A296-0F5746B043DA@mac.com> <26661FCA-E69B-4BB0-AACC-01D62AE1B450@me.com> Message-ID: <05ce062f-1eb8-0242-49fa-c0a37dc62238@chriswoolf.co.uk> One of the difficulties with some of the more interesting playback methods is that they use digital encoding. This often makes the signal handling easier - bluetooth links for example - but adds latency. Typical (good) converter latencies are close to 2ms. Add on to that the transmission delay of ~5ms (depending on packet size), and the buffering needed to collect a decent chunk of data reliably, and you are into around 20ms delay, even with a good system. 30-40ms is typical, and many bluetooth links are double that. There are ways to drop the end-to-end delay further, as has been achieved with the better digital radio mics now, but it comes at a cost, and needing sophisticated communications protocols. 20ms is a field, 40ms is a frame error (in old-fashioned 50Hz terms). Those are the sort of rates that many would spot as slight sync problems.? The grosser latency periods would stick out a mile. Many performers struggle to maintain pitch in a studio if the foldback delay is >5ms. Theatre performers seem more tolerant. The problem is exacerbated by every version of digital recording and signal handling, so many ways around latency have been evolved, but it is an added headache that those of us still remembering the days of analogue didn't have to contend with. Chris Woolf On 03/02/2023 14:44, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > I don?t know how he approached this on his video, but in 1988 I did a > show where Tony Robinson and Toyah Wilcox had to rap to a pre-recorded > backing track in an outdoor setting. ?Obviously they needed to hear > the track, but the quick-fire nature of the lyrics was such that > miming was out of the question, it had to be performed for real. > ?Discreet silent playback was rssential. > > There was no problem with Toyah, she had a huge mane of hair, so > although IEM receivers weren?t really a thing in those days, a radio > mic receiver did the job well and fed a cabled earpiece. > > Tony presented much more of a problem because his head was shaved, > which meant that even a transparent acoustic tube would be highly > visible on his neck. ?The solution I adopted was a tiny in-the-ear > hearing aid which used an induction pickup. ?He wore a neck loop under > his costume and the neck loop was fed from a similar receiver to > Toyah?s. ?It worked incredibly well and remained invisible even on big > close ups. > > Like I said, I have no idea how this guy actually resolved the > technicalities of his recording, but simple hearing aids which fit > completely within the ear canal are readily available and would work > well for tasks such as this one. I?ve worked with ones using inductive > pickup and others using radio transmission. ?The radio was easier to > set up, but not particularly reliable. ?Inductive loops either need a > cable placed around the perimeter of the performing area ( small area > = ridiculously easy: large area or outdoors = problematic ) or else > the performer needs to wear a neck loop which can be simply fed from a > standard headphone socket. > > Alan > > > >> On 2 Feb 2023, at 12:14, Nick Rodger via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> ? Clever Sound People, >> >> This seems very clever to me, but what do I know? >> >> >> >> >> >> maxresdefault.jpg >> Stand By Me (ACAPELLA) - Ben E. King >> >> youtube.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> My question is:~ >> >> Is he lip~synching? Seems very well done if he is. >> >> If he isn?t lip~synching is he using a foldback speaker? >> >> If he is using foldback, wouldn?t there be some spill over his mic? >> >> Or is there spill that I simply can?t hear? >> >> Nick. >> >> >> Nick Rodger >> Cameraman (Retired) >> 07971 007578 >> nickrodger at mac.com >> >> Don?t blame me!! >> I voted Remain ?? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 171202 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alanaudio at me.com Fri Feb 3 10:32:51 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 16:32:51 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] (No subject) In-Reply-To: <05ce062f-1eb8-0242-49fa-c0a37dc62238@chriswoolf.co.uk> References: <05ce062f-1eb8-0242-49fa-c0a37dc62238@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: <73B098F3-617C-4378-9A7D-A2DB08414CDC@me.com> It?s also worth remembering that if an artist is hearing the fold back via a loudspeaker, it takes a finite amount of time for the sound to travel from the loudspeaker to the artist. In round figures, if the speaker is 20 feet away, it will take about 20mS, or the equivalent of one field, to reach the artist. That tiny 5mS delay would be about how long it takes sound to get from a floor monitor at their feet to their ears. This delay first came to my attention when we were doing Seaside Special throughout the last half of the 1970s. Geoff Richer, the choreographer used to get rather dismayed by the sloppy timing of the dancers when we recorded them compared to how tightly they performed in rehearsal rooms. I knew the dancers quite well and noticed one day that a couple of them were upset and they told me how Geoff had been giving them a hard time about not being properly in sync when it mattered. That?s when I realised that on stage, the foldback speakers were about 50 feet away, or if doing dance routines outside on location, the shots were such that the speakers often had to be 100 to 150 feet away. More than enough for a very noticeable three to four frame delay. At that time, the MSC ( Mobile Sound Control Truck ) had been fitted as standard with a Harmoniser, a digital special effects unit which is intended for pitch shifting, but can also be used to create small delays. We simply worked out how far on average the speakers were from the dancers and dialled in a suitable delay from the tape playback to the TV sound desk. The feed to the foldback speakers was then ahead of the sound onto tape. Problem solved. Geoff suddenly happy. Dancers suddenly no longer getting yelled at for something which wasn?t their fault. On another occasion part of the show was staged on a beach, above the high tide point. A much bigger crowd than expected turned up and although RG Jones had set up a pretty powerful PA system, the shape of the beach and the stage being at right angles to the water meant that the crowd was relatively narrow, but very deep indeed. The people nearer the back could scarcely hear anything. That?s when we tried doing what is now standard practice on large sound systems, hastily rigging a speaker a long way from the stage and delaying its feed so that it reproduces the sound at exactly the same moment that the sound from the main speakers on the stage arrives there. One relatively small but powerful delayed speaker boosted the sound from the main stage by an impressive amount and maintained the clarity too. Robin Jones had never worked with delayed speakers prior to that, but he was most impressed and ordered delay units to use as standard on larger sound reinforcement jobs. Alan > On 3 Feb 2023, at 15:26, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: > > ? > One of the difficulties with some of the more interesting playback methods is that they use digital encoding. This often makes the signal handling easier - bluetooth links for example - but adds latency. > > Typical (good) converter latencies are close to 2ms. Add on to that the transmission delay of ~5ms (depending on packet size), and the buffering needed to collect a decent chunk of data reliably, and you are into around 20ms delay, even with a good system. 30-40ms is typical, and many bluetooth links are double that. > > There are ways to drop the end-to-end delay further, as has been achieved with the better digital radio mics now, but it comes at a cost, and needing sophisticated communications protocols. > > 20ms is a field, 40ms is a frame error (in old-fashioned 50Hz terms). Those are the sort of rates that many would spot as slight sync problems. The grosser latency periods would stick out a mile. Many performers struggle to maintain pitch in a studio if the foldback delay is >5ms. Theatre performers seem more tolerant. > > The problem is exacerbated by every version of digital recording and signal handling, so many ways around latency have been evolved, but it is an added headache that those of us still remembering the days of analogue didn't have to contend with. > > Chris Woolf > > > > On 03/02/2023 14:44, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: >> I don?t know how he approached this on his video, but in 1988 I did a show where Tony Robinson and Toyah Wilcox had to rap to a pre-recorded backing track in an outdoor setting. Obviously they needed to hear the track, but the quick-fire nature of the lyrics was such that miming was out of the question, it had to be performed for real. Discreet silent playback was rssential. >> >> There was no problem with Toyah, she had a huge mane of hair, so although IEM receivers weren?t really a thing in those days, a radio mic receiver did the job well and fed a cabled earpiece. >> >> Tony presented much more of a problem because his head was shaved, which meant that even a transparent acoustic tube would be highly visible on his neck. The solution I adopted was a tiny in-the-ear hearing aid which used an induction pickup. He wore a neck loop under his costume and the neck loop was fed from a similar receiver to Toyah?s. It worked incredibly well and remained invisible even on big close ups. >> >> Like I said, I have no idea how this guy actually resolved the technicalities of his recording, but simple hearing aids which fit completely within the ear canal are readily available and would work well for tasks such as this one. I?ve worked with ones using inductive pickup and others using radio transmission. The radio was easier to set up, but not particularly reliable. Inductive loops either need a cable placed around the perimeter of the performing area ( small area = ridiculously easy: large area or outdoors = problematic ) or else the performer needs to wear a neck loop which can be simply fed from a standard headphone socket. >> >> Alan >> >> >> >>> On 2 Feb 2023, at 12:14, Nick Rodger via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> ? Clever Sound People, >>> >>> This seems very clever to me, but what do I know? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Stand By Me (ACAPELLA) - Ben E. King >>> youtube.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> My question is:~ >>> >>> Is he lip~synching? Seems very well done if he is. >>> >>> If he isn?t lip~synching is he using a foldback speaker? >>> >>> If he is using foldback, wouldn?t there be some spill over his mic? >>> >>> Or is there spill that I simply can?t hear? >>> >>> Nick. >>> >>> >>> Nick Rodger >>> Cameraman (Retired) >>> 07971 007578 >>> nickrodger at mac.com >>> >>> Don?t blame me!! >>> I voted Remain ?? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 171202 bytes Desc: not available URL: From waresound at msn.com Fri Feb 3 12:00:00 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 18:00:00 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Acapella multi~track. In-Reply-To: References: <852D3F8E-0EAD-46AD-A296-0F5746B043DA@mac.com> Message-ID: There are Acapella demo videos on YouTube that you might like to have a look at: youtube.com/watch?v=WuZ09Xd_E2c youtube.com/watch?v=Ti8ZyNucq10 Etc. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 3 Feb 2023, at 13:50, Nick Ware wrote: ? I think you?ll find it?s an iPad App. There are two or three such apps to choose from. Several other (some better) examples on Youtube. So, sadly, not clever sound people, but more about talented musicians. Cheers, Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 2 Feb 2023, at 12:15, Nick Rodger via Tech1 wrote: ? Clever Sound People, This seems very clever to me, but what do I know? [maxresdefault.jpg] Stand By Me (ACAPELLA) - Ben E. King youtube.com My question is:~ Is he lip~synching? Seems very well done if he is. If he isn?t lip~synching is he using a foldback speaker? If he is using foldback, wouldn?t there be some spill over his mic? Or is there spill that I simply can?t hear? Nick. Nick Rodger Cameraman (Retired) 07971 007578 nickrodger at mac.com Don?t blame me!! I voted Remain ?? -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 171202 bytes Desc: maxresdefault.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 171202 bytes Desc: maxresdefault.jpg URL: From billjenkin67 at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 02:57:20 2023 From: billjenkin67 at gmail.com (Bill Jenkin) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 08:57:20 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters Message-ID: I have seen the following post on a notice board for ex-BBC staff. I wondered if anyone had any info on this? The post appears to be from his son Colin. " My father William (Bill) Watters (TM2 Lighting) worked for the BBC for 28 years until 1975. I would like to ask if any members know about a program, pilot or ?? called the *Scribble Experiment* I have a note of thanks to my father for his work on "this experiment" from a Vision Organiser "E. G. Dann". This was written 17th March 1970. It mentions Pat Dowling who I believe was the producer of Vision On and other similar programs around this time. The subject field of the letter refers to: "Scribble Experiment : 14.3.70 TC3" >From other letters I think 14.3.70 is the date it was recorded. "TC" is presumably Televison Centre as that's where he worked. Also Lime Grove. The letter also says "if this production comes into the schedule"... so perhaps it was just a pilot that didn't make it or it got renamed? Any info welcome!" I wondered if anyone could shed any light? Bill Jenkin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Sat Feb 4 03:20:32 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 09:20:32 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F5EF2CA84F14A5D9F20BC457886E64F@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> The Vision Organiser would have been Gwyllam Dann (I may well have the spelling wrong). Scant help but might give a lead for you. Dave Newbitt. From: Bill Jenkin via Tech1 Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2023 8:57 AM To: Tech-Ops. co. uk email group Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters I have seen the following post on a notice board for ex-BBC staff. I wondered if anyone had any info on this? The post appears to be from his son Colin. " My father William (Bill) Watters (TM2 Lighting) worked for the BBC for 28 years until 1975. I would like to ask if any members know about a program, pilot or ?? called the Scribble Experiment I have a note of thanks to my father for his work on "this experiment" from a Vision Organiser "E. G. Dann". This was written 17th March 1970. It mentions Pat Dowling who I believe was the producer of Vision On and other similar programs around this time. The subject field of the letter refers to: "Scribble Experiment : 14.3.70 TC3" >From other letters I think 14.3.70 is the date it was recorded. "TC" is presumably Televison Centre as that's where he worked. Also Lime Grove. The letter also says "if this production comes into the schedule"... so perhaps it was just a pilot that didn't make it or it got renamed? Any info welcome!" I wondered if anyone could shed any light? Bill Jenkin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoffletch at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 04:52:52 2023 From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 10:52:52 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B7A4453-86A1-4B4A-9971-72BACDDB87B4@gmail.com> Nothing in my diaries about Scribble Experiment but several mentions of Bill Watters as TM2. This is my entry for 24 January 1966. What did the Watters periscope look like? I can?t recall it as such, but I do remember using a mirror attachment for ultra low angle shots - a big one with protective metal doors on the bottom of the ped with retaining loops over the pressure cylinders, and a corresponding small one mounted on the lens. Both of these were at ar 45? angle and acted like an upside down periscope. Was that it? Geoff F > On 4 Feb 2023, at 08:57, Bill Jenkin via Tech1 wrote: > > I have seen the following post on a notice board for ex-BBC staff. I wondered if anyone had any info on this? The post appears to be from his son Colin. > > " My father William (Bill) Watters (TM2 Lighting) worked for the BBC for 28 years until 1975. > > I would like to ask if any members know about a program, pilot or ?? called the Scribble Experiment > > I have a note of thanks to my father for his work on "this experiment" from a Vision Organiser "E. G. Dann". This was written 17th March 1970. It mentions Pat Dowling who I believe was the producer of Vision On and other similar programs around this time. > > The subject field of the letter refers to: "Scribble Experiment : 14.3.70 TC3" > > From other letters I think 14.3.70 is the date it was recorded. "TC" is presumably Televison Centre as that's where he worked. Also Lime Grove. > > The letter also says "if this production comes into the schedule"... so perhaps it was just a pilot that didn't make it or it got renamed? > > Any info welcome!" > > I wondered if anyone could shed any light? > Bill Jenkin > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 660124.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 69772 bytes Desc: not available URL: From davidvbrunt at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 05:19:44 2023 From: davidvbrunt at gmail.com (David Brunt) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 11:19:44 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After a bit of digging... The Patrick Dowling connection does suggest 'Vision On', though that was based in Bristol of course. The spring/summer 1970 season featured inserts of members of the Caricature Theatre in Bristol. 'Play School' had a story called 'The Scribble' on 22 October 1970. Which also featured the same members of the Caricature Theatre in Bristol playing 'Scribble Kids'. They returned as the characters at least one a year throughout the 1970s. Could that be the connection? The group were being tested out for use in 'Vision On' from the end of April. Which would certainly fit the date. On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 at 08:58, Bill Jenkin via Tech1 wrote: > > I have seen the following post on a notice board for ex-BBC staff. I wondered if anyone had any info on this? The post appears to be from his son Colin. > > " My father William (Bill) Watters (TM2 Lighting) worked for the BBC for 28 years until 1975. > > I would like to ask if any members know about a program, pilot or ?? called the Scribble Experiment > > I have a note of thanks to my father for his work on "this experiment" from a Vision Organiser "E. G. Dann". This was written 17th March 1970. It mentions Pat Dowling who I believe was the producer of Vision On and other similar programs around this time. > > The subject field of the letter refers to: "Scribble Experiment : 14.3.70 TC3" > > From other letters I think 14.3.70 is the date it was recorded. "TC" is presumably Televison Centre as that's where he worked. Also Lime Grove. > > The letter also says "if this production comes into the schedule"... so perhaps it was just a pilot that didn't make it or it got renamed? > > Any info welcome!" > > I wondered if anyone could shed any light? > Bill Jenkin > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From peterjohncombes at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 06:23:56 2023 From: peterjohncombes at gmail.com (Peter Combes) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 13:23:56 +0100 Subject: [Tech1] Steve Blatchford Message-ID: I saw the announcement of the death of Steve Blatchford. Here is a photo of him with Chris Wickham and Tim Smith, all attending my wedding in 1964....... Peter Combes Crew 3 Emeritus [image: BlatchfordWickhamSmith.jpeg] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BlatchfordWickhamSmith.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 101086 bytes Desc: not available URL: From peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk Sat Feb 4 07:06:19 2023 From: peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk (Peter Fox) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 13:06:19 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the upside down periscope was the Shalcross periscope designed by Alan Shalcross. Whether Alan was a lighting man or a TOM I don't recall. Peter Fox On 4 Feb 2023, at 11:20, David Brunt via Tech1 wrote: ?After a bit of digging... The Patrick Dowling connection does suggest 'Vision On', though that was based in Bristol of course. The spring/summer 1970 season featured inserts of members of the Caricature Theatre in Bristol. 'Play School' had a story called 'The Scribble' on 22 October 1970. Which also featured the same members of the Caricature Theatre in Bristol playing 'Scribble Kids'. They returned as the characters at least one a year throughout the 1970s. Could that be the connection? The group were being tested out for use in 'Vision On' from the end of April. Which would certainly fit the date. On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 at 08:58, Bill Jenkin via Tech1 wrote: > > I have seen the following post on a notice board for ex-BBC staff. I wondered if anyone had any info on this? The post appears to be from his son Colin. > > " My father William (Bill) Watters (TM2 Lighting) worked for the BBC for 28 years until 1975. > > I would like to ask if any members know about a program, pilot or ?? called the Scribble Experiment > > I have a note of thanks to my father for his work on "this experiment" from a Vision Organiser "E. G. Dann". This was written 17th March 1970. It mentions Pat Dowling who I believe was the producer of Vision On and other similar programs around this time. > > The subject field of the letter refers to: "Scribble Experiment : 14.3.70 TC3" > > From other letters I think 14.3.70 is the date it was recorded. "TC" is presumably Televison Centre as that's where he worked. Also Lime Grove. > > The letter also says "if this production comes into the schedule"... so perhaps it was just a pilot that didn't make it or it got renamed? > > Any info welcome!" > > I wondered if anyone could shed any light? > Bill Jenkin > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From geoffletch at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 08:20:07 2023 From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 14:20:07 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you mean Jack Shalcross who was a TM 2 in my BBC days? I think you are correct though Peter. Which still leaves me wondering what the Watters kit looked like. Geoff F On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 at 13:07, Peter Fox via Tech1 wrote: > I think the upside down periscope was the Shalcross periscope designed by > Alan Shalcross. Whether Alan was a lighting man or a TOM I don't recall. > > Peter Fox > > On 4 Feb 2023, at 11:20, David Brunt via Tech1 > wrote: > > ?After a bit of digging... > > The Patrick Dowling connection does suggest 'Vision On', though that > was based in Bristol of course. The spring/summer 1970 season featured > inserts of members of the Caricature Theatre in Bristol. > > 'Play School' had a story called 'The Scribble' on 22 October 1970. > Which also featured the same members of the Caricature Theatre in > Bristol playing 'Scribble Kids'. They returned as the characters at > least one a year throughout the 1970s. > > Could that be the connection? The group were being tested out for use > in 'Vision On' from the end of April. Which would certainly fit the > date. > > > > On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 at 08:58, Bill Jenkin via Tech1 > wrote: > > > > I have seen the following post on a notice board for ex-BBC staff. I > wondered if anyone had any info on this? The post appears to be from his > son Colin. > > > > " My father William (Bill) Watters (TM2 Lighting) worked for the BBC for > 28 years until 1975. > > > > I would like to ask if any members know about a program, pilot or ?? > called the Scribble Experiment > > > > I have a note of thanks to my father for his work on "this experiment" > from a Vision Organiser "E. G. Dann". This was written 17th March 1970. It > mentions Pat Dowling who I believe was the producer of Vision On and other > similar programs around this time. > > > > The subject field of the letter refers to: "Scribble Experiment : > 14.3.70 TC3" > > > > From other letters I think 14.3.70 is the date it was recorded. "TC" is > presumably Televison Centre as that's where he worked. Also Lime Grove. > > > > The letter also says "if this production comes into the schedule"... so > perhaps it was just a pilot that didn't make it or it got renamed? > > > > Any info welcome!" > > > > I wondered if anyone could shed any light? > > Bill Jenkin > > > > -- > > Tech1 mailing list > > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk Sat Feb 4 11:33:09 2023 From: peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk (Peter Fox) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 17:33:09 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billjenkin67 at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 14:15:34 2023 From: billjenkin67 at gmail.com (Bill Jenkin) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 20:15:34 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There was also a P.U.M.A. istr. I can't remember what the difference was between that and the Shalcross Periscope. Actually some Vision Ons were made in London Studios. I remember working on at least two in Riverside 2. I think the "Scribble Kids" avenue looks promising. Bill On Sat, 4 Feb 2023, 17:34 Peter Fox via Tech1, wrote: > Corrections accepted, thank you Dudley and Geoff Jack Shalcross sounds > much better > > Peter Fox > > On 4 Feb 2023, at 14:20, Geoff Fletcher wrote: > > ? > Do you mean Jack Shalcross who was a TM 2 in my BBC days? I think you are > correct though Peter. Which still leaves me wondering what the Watters kit > looked like. > > Geoff F > > On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 at 13:07, Peter Fox via Tech1 > wrote: > >> I think the upside down periscope was the Shalcross periscope designed by >> Alan Shalcross. Whether Alan was a lighting man or a TOM I don't recall. >> >> Peter Fox >> >> On 4 Feb 2023, at 11:20, David Brunt via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> ?After a bit of digging... >> >> The Patrick Dowling connection does suggest 'Vision On', though that >> was based in Bristol of course. The spring/summer 1970 season featured >> inserts of members of the Caricature Theatre in Bristol. >> >> 'Play School' had a story called 'The Scribble' on 22 October 1970. >> Which also featured the same members of the Caricature Theatre in >> Bristol playing 'Scribble Kids'. They returned as the characters at >> least one a year throughout the 1970s. >> >> Could that be the connection? The group were being tested out for use >> in 'Vision On' from the end of April. Which would certainly fit the >> date. >> >> >> >> On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 at 08:58, Bill Jenkin via Tech1 >> wrote: >> > >> > I have seen the following post on a notice board for ex-BBC staff. I >> wondered if anyone had any info on this? The post appears to be from his >> son Colin. >> > >> > " My father William (Bill) Watters (TM2 Lighting) worked for the BBC >> for 28 years until 1975. >> > >> > I would like to ask if any members know about a program, pilot or ?? >> called the Scribble Experiment >> > >> > I have a note of thanks to my father for his work on "this experiment" >> from a Vision Organiser "E. G. Dann". This was written 17th March 1970. It >> mentions Pat Dowling who I believe was the producer of Vision On and other >> similar programs around this time. >> > >> > The subject field of the letter refers to: "Scribble Experiment : >> 14.3.70 TC3" >> > >> > From other letters I think 14.3.70 is the date it was recorded. "TC" is >> presumably Televison Centre as that's where he worked. Also Lime Grove. >> > >> > The letter also says "if this production comes into the schedule"... so >> perhaps it was just a pilot that didn't make it or it got renamed? >> > >> > Any info welcome!" >> > >> > I wondered if anyone could shed any light? >> > Bill Jenkin >> > >> > -- >> > Tech1 mailing list >> > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mibridge at mac.com Sat Feb 4 17:05:51 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 23:05:51 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] "Scribble Experiment" - Bill Watters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78785A0F-3A69-436F-AEB8-2132114E230D@mac.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barrybonner119 at btinternet.com Sun Feb 5 06:48:48 2023 From: barrybonner119 at btinternet.com (Barry Bonner) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2023 12:48:48 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Steve Blatchford In-Reply-To: <4D1F840F-0097-4959-91B9-20EA6A3D8C9A@ukgateway.net> References: <4D1F840F-0097-4959-91B9-20EA6A3D8C9A@ukgateway.net> Message-ID: Hi Robin, Yes, very sad news indeed. I was on a crew with Steve before he went to OBs. He was a very pleasant guy to work with and always had a happy disposition. Herewith a photo of him at work I sneakily took in 1967ish? when taking photos was banned. It was not long after TC7 opened. Barry. On 3 Feb 2023, at 16:27, Robin Sutherland via Announce wrote: > More sad news I?m afraid. I heard from Alex Thomas yesterday that Steve Blatchford has died. He had not been in the best of health for some time with respiratory problems but I believe this was something else. > > He was admitted to Stoke Mandeville Hospital last week and moved to the hospice there where he passed away. > > I first encountered Steve at TC in the 60s and was pleased to renew his acquaintance later when he transferred to OBs where he thoroughly enjoyed the rest of his BBC days. He was an excellent cameraman and thoroughly good company with an acerbic wit and a wonderfully dry sense of humour. > > I particularly recall his last show on OBs before taking early retirement. It was Dunhill Golf from St Andrews and we were all in a bad state on the final day after a riotous retirement event the previous evening. He worked as a freelancer with me on Diana?s funeral and spotted the stunning closeup of the wreath on the coffin with the word ?Mummy? written on it, one of > > the most memorable shots of the whole event. > > Definitely one of the good guys - RIP Steve. > > Robin Sutherland > -- > Announce mailing list > Announce at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/announce_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Steve Blatchford.JPG Type: image/jpg Size: 255546 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Mon Feb 6 02:36:26 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2023 08:36:26 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Happy Valley Message-ID: Like many folk my wife and I watched the final episode last night. We agree with every superlative voiced regarding Sarah Lancashire, James Norton and Sally Wainwright but wonder whether any critic or commentator considered a mention of others in their critiques. For our money there were many cast members more than worthy of mention, most especially Siobhan Finneran who was quite superb, as indeed she has been in other drama productions. Dave Newbitt. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Tue Feb 7 09:55:12 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2023 15:55:12 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] (No subject) In-Reply-To: <73B098F3-617C-4378-9A7D-A2DB08414CDC@me.com> References: <05ce062f-1eb8-0242-49fa-c0a37dc62238@chriswoolf.co.uk> <73B098F3-617C-4378-9A7D-A2DB08414CDC@me.com> Message-ID: <202d01a7-0c6e-aabe-8b75-1f70fe149bd6@amps.net> Forgive me for butting in, here! I have no knowledge of the problems engendered with OB situations, but amazed at the solutions arrived at. My experience with the B & W Minstrels in the TVT, was that the foldback was rigged with an LSU10 for the front, Pamphonics were slung over the main and upstage areas, and a small loudspeaker mounted under Cam1 head for when the principals were in close up. I attach a story, in PDF form, which might be interesting. Pat On 03/02/2023 16:32, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > It?s also worth remembering that if an artist is hearing the fold back > via a loudspeaker, it takes a finite amount of time for the sound to > travel from the loudspeaker to the artist. In round figures, if the > speaker is 20 feet away, it will take about 20mS, or the equivalent of > one field, to reach the artist. That tiny 5mS delay would be about how > long it takes sound to get from a floor monitor at their feet to their > ears. > > This delay first came to my attention when we were doing Seaside > Special throughout the last half of the 1970s. Geoff Richer, the > choreographer used to get rather dismayed by the sloppy timing of the > dancers when we recorded them compared to how tightly they performed > in rehearsal rooms. ?I knew the dancers quite well and noticed one day > that a couple of them were upset and they told me how Geoff had been > giving them a hard time about not being properly in sync when it > mattered. ?That?s when I realised that on stage, the foldback speakers > were about 50 feet away, or if doing dance routines outside on > location, the shots were such that the speakers often had to be 100 to > 150 feet away. More than enough for a very noticeable three to four > frame delay. > > At that time, the MSC ( Mobile Sound Control Truck ) had been fitted > as standard with a Harmoniser, a digital special effects unit which is > intended for pitch shifting, but can also be used to create small > delays. ?We simply worked out how far on average the speakers were > from the dancers and dialled in a suitable delay from the tape > playback to the TV sound desk. ?The feed to the foldback speakers was > then ahead of the sound onto tape. ?Problem solved. Geoff suddenly > happy. Dancers suddenly no longer getting yelled at for something > which wasn?t their fault. > > On another occasion part of the show was staged on a beach, above the > high tide point. ?A much bigger crowd than expected turned up and > although RG Jones had set up a pretty powerful PA system, the shape of > the beach and the stage being at right angles to the water meant that > the crowd was relatively narrow, but very deep indeed. ?The people > nearer the back could scarcely hear anything. ?That?s when we tried > doing what is now standard practice on large sound systems, hastily > rigging a speaker a long way from the stage and delaying its feed so > that it reproduces the sound at exactly the same moment that the sound > from the main speakers on the stage arrives there. > > One relatively small but powerful delayed speaker boosted the sound > from the main stage by an impressive amount and maintained the clarity > too. ?Robin Jones had never worked with delayed speakers prior to > that, but he was most impressed and ordered delay units to use as > standard on larger sound reinforcement jobs. > > Alan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sync miming.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 27624 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at davidtaylorsound.co.uk Tue Feb 7 15:07:22 2023 From: david at davidtaylorsound.co.uk (David Taylor) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2023 21:07:22 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors Message-ID: Hi all, I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you could help his query? "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." David T www.postfade.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Tue Feb 7 15:25:39 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2023 21:25:39 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14484FBC-1F75-45AA-97F8-0D7243066031@me.com> I know that a lot of BBC gear in the 1950s used EP series connectors for audio, notably EP3, but I don?t recall ever seeing any of them in use by the time I started in the late 60s. EP4 connectors continued to be used for mains power until well into the 1970s. Other EP Series connectors with more pins were used for other purposes. The shell of cable mounted EP series connectors was about 30mm in diameter and made of die cast metal. As far as I can recall, F&E connectors were quite bulky coax video connectors with a screw coupling. They were typically used to feed video into monitors until the BNC appeared. The F&E had an advantageous feature where a standard jack plug could bridge between the inner pin and the shell and make good contact, which meant that if you used bog standard headphones, you could instantly listen to the feed. If you hear the buzz of the syncs, you know there is a video feed coming down that cable. I don?t know what EP or F&E stood for. I don?t know if they are related and might be different terms for the same thing. Alan > On 7 Feb 2023, at 21:08, David Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > > ? > Hi all, > I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. > I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! > > I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you could help his query? > "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." > > David T > www.postfade.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikej at bmanor.co.uk Tue Feb 7 16:03:31 2023 From: mikej at bmanor.co.uk (Mike Jordan) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2023 22:03:31 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <089FA4B9486F47D0A55C5EA0DEDBE6AB@Gigabyte> F&E was of course ?Films and Equipment? EP connectors I think were actually Cannon connectors and existed as 3pin were a very old version in BBC for simple mics. 4Pin were for mains, 6 pin existed I seem to remember and were used on things like Comm boxes to feed in and out audio and also COOBE box cable. (COmmentators Outside Broadcast Equipment) The 4pin ones for mains were suddenly condemned as the earth was one of the pins and the case of the socket was only connected to earth by a tiny screw between the case and earth pin and was prone to fall out. Hence all had to have separate soldered to pin wire connected under the cable grips of the socket case to earth the case for protection. Actually F&E was the term used for video connectors (or PL259) Along came XLR L&E as the regular connector. BBC used them in the opposite way around to outside companies. BBC ones (as in the picture had a tiny live pin but shrouded so considered safe. One had to be careful taking a BBC mains lead to an outside place (like the VT pace off Tott Ct Road) as plugging the wrong type in resulted an a live 13A pinned plug. When they wanted a connector with a higher power capacity, they tried just making a bigger version but then the live pin was big enough to connect to a British Babies finger so was condemned and ends had to be changed around causing great confusion. Nuff said ? off to bed! Mike Jordan From: David Taylor via Tech1 Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2023 9:07 PM To: Tech-Ops-chit-chat Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors Hi all, I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you could help his query? "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." David T www.postfade.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EP4 and XLR_s.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 90703 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: COOBE test lead_s.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 121331 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alawrance1 at me.com Tue Feb 7 16:04:58 2023 From: alawrance1 at me.com (Alasdair Lawrance) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2023 22:04:58 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: <14484FBC-1F75-45AA-97F8-0D7243066031@me.com> References: <14484FBC-1F75-45AA-97F8-0D7243066031@me.com> Message-ID: <5E24D70A-1A8A-43AE-B076-3D965AF6C6D5@me.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Tue Feb 7 16:43:46 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2023 22:43:46 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: <5E24D70A-1A8A-43AE-B076-3D965AF6C6D5@me.com> References: <5E24D70A-1A8A-43AE-B076-3D965AF6C6D5@me.com> Message-ID: <96C3AC9D-146C-4592-BCB5-1FAEC3AF9B39@me.com> I?d put in a bid for EP series connectors being made by Amphenol ( the clue is in the name on the socket ), I?ve no idea if they were also made by Canon. These are examples of the EP3 type. The sockets look superficially like modern XLR sockets, but are considerably larger, about twice the diameter. I had forgotten that F&E connectors are also known as PL259. Here is a chassis mount socket and a plug as would typically be used for feeding video into a monitor. I might have a picture of some vintage audio gear using EP 3 connectors. I?ll have a look tomorrow and see if I can find it. Alan > On 7 Feb 2023, at 22:05, Alasdair Lawrance wrote: > > ?F&E was 'Film and Equipment', but I don't know what EP was. > > I always thought the EP type were made by Cannon, and that, a cannon, was their trademark. They're now part of ITT. > > Alasdair Lawrance > > Don?t blame me, I voted Remain. > > > >>> On 7 Feb 2023, at 21:26, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: >>> >> ? >> I know that a lot of BBC gear in the 1950s used EP series connectors for audio, notably EP3, but I don?t recall ever seeing any of them in use by the time I started in the late 60s. EP4 connectors continued to be used for mains power until well into the 1970s. Other EP Series connectors with more pins were used for other purposes. The shell of cable mounted EP series connectors was about 30mm in diameter and made of die cast metal. >> >> As far as I can recall, F&E connectors were quite bulky coax video connectors with a screw coupling. They were typically used to feed video into monitors until the BNC appeared. The F&E had an advantageous feature where a standard jack plug could bridge between the inner pin and the shell and make good contact, which meant that if you used bog standard headphones, you could instantly listen to the feed. If you hear the buzz of the syncs, you know there is a video feed coming down that cable. >> >> I don?t know what EP or F&E stood for. I don?t know if they are related and might be different terms for the same thing. >> >> Alan >> >> >>>> On 7 Feb 2023, at 21:08, David Taylor via Tech1 wrote: >>>> >>> ? >>> Hi all, >>> I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. >>> I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! >>> >>> I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you could help his query? >>> "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." >>> >>> David T >>> www.postfade.co.uk >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 32889 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39155 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12027 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image3.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23384 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Tue Feb 7 17:43:54 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2023 23:43:54 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again! Dave Newbitt. From: David Taylor via Tech1 Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM To: Tech-Ops-chit-chat Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors Hi all, I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you could help his query? "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." David T www.postfade.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 17:55:20 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2023 23:55:20 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Spot on, IMHO, Dave. And remember you had a specify a mic extension cable as either 30 or 300, as it was just a screened pair so had to match the connections in the wall box. The EP 4 mains connector was only matched for danger as a mains connector with those D&S - where you could remove the plug and the fuse remained sticking out of the socket and live. The natural reaction was to pull it out and screw it back in. But only once. On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, 5-Pin > for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The plugs > for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring to > accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again! > Dave Newbitt. > *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM > *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat > *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors > Hi all, > I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing with > old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia TV and > wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. > I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, > and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for > 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! > I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you > could help his query? > "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I am > doing some research and wondered if you had any information about F&E ? > Where was the company based, what products did they make and when did > they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." > > David T > www.postfade.co.uk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > From alanaudio at me.com Wed Feb 8 03:59:08 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 09:59:08 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4581C408-0AE6-4A57-B9AD-D94C1A50F883@me.com> Pictures of EP3 connectors used on audio gear. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41685 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 295839 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- People who worked on OBs before the 80s will see the similarity between the Pye 3051a and the more sophisticated Baron Box. Both were used as communications boxes for commentators. Both were passive, needing no power supply, just feeds to and from the scanner. The picture of the OB was originally labelled as a cricket OB, but I believe it might be a golf OB judging by the commentator, but I can?t remember his name. If anybody can add any more info, or name the assistant, it would be appreciated. I would guess it might have been taken around 1957. I can remember seeing dusty and unloved Pye 3051a commentator?s units kicking around in the nether regions of tech stores at Kendal Avenue. I also have vague recollections of seeing one in use at Wimbledon in the early 1970s, where almost every bit of gear from any era was cobbled together to be used somewhere on site. Alan > On 7 Feb 2023, at 23:55, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Spot on, IMHO, Dave. And remember you had a specify a mic extension cable as either 30 or 300, as it was just a screened pair so had to match the connections in the wall box. > > The EP 4 mains connector was only matched for danger as a mains connector with those D&S - where you could remove the plug and the fuse remained sticking out of the socket and live. The natural reaction was to pull it out and screw it back in. But only once. > >> On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >> As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again! >> Dave Newbitt. >> *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM >> *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat >> *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors >> Hi all, >> I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. >> I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! >> I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you could help his query? >> "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." >> David T >> www.postfade.co.uk >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From tonynuttall at me.com Wed Feb 8 04:25:36 2023 From: tonynuttall at me.com (William Nuttall) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 10:25:36 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?F=26E_Connectors?= In-Reply-To: <4581C408-0AE6-4A57-B9AD-D94C1A50F883@me.com> References: <4581C408-0AE6-4A57-B9AD-D94C1A50F883@me.com> Message-ID: <35a36caf-158f-419d-a46c-709fa97b65bc@me.com> Another good source for Tech Info on all Audio Equipment especially BBC is:-Roger Beckwith at ?http://www.orbem.co.ukTony NuttallOn 8 Feb 2023, at 9:59, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:Pictures of EP3 connectors used on audio gear.People who worked on OBs before the 80s will see the similarity between the Pye 3051a and the more sophisticated Baron Box. Both were used as communications boxes for commentators. Both were passive, needing no power supply, just feeds to and from the scanner.The picture of the OB was originally labelled as a cricket OB, but I believe it might be a golf OB judging by the commentator, but I can?t remember his name. If anybody can add any more info, or name the assistant, it would be appreciated. I would guess it might have been taken around 1957.I can remember seeing dusty and unloved Pye 3051a commentator?s units kicking around in the nether regions of tech stores at Kendal Avenue. I also have vague recollections of seeing one in use at Wimbledon in the early 1970s, where almost every bit of gear from any era was cobbled together to be used somewhere on site.Alan On 7 Feb 2023, at 23:55, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:?Spot on, IMHO, Dave. And remember you had a specify a mic extension cable as either 30 or 300, as it was just a screened pair so had to match the connections in the wall box.The EP 4 mains connector was only matched for danger as a mains connector with those D&S - where you could remove the plug and the fuse remained sticking out of the socket and live. The natural reaction was to pull it out and screw it back in. But only once.On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again!Dave Newbitt.*From:* David Taylor via Tech1*Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM*To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat*Subject:* [Tech1] F&E ConnectorsHi all,I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors.I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors!I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you could help his query?"You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful."David Twww.postfade.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk-- Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk-- Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Wed Feb 8 06:54:45 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:54:45 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well remembered, Dave Newbitt. My memory is hazy, but I do recall that 4038's were 30ohm, and the wall boxes had different pin connections for the terminating transformers? The 38's were lovely mics, mainly used for slung audience pick up, the dead side presented to the Pamphonic audience PA speakers. Also much used on trombones. They were stored in nice wooden boxes, with a felt lined metal sleeve into which the mic fitted. A directive was that microphones should only be put down on a clean sheet of white paper to avoid the magnets attracting tiny metallic particles which could jam up the ribbon. They had their own plug type, different to any other mic, and floor stands were available with that plug integral. As far as boom mics were concerned, the standard 4033 could be switched, with a screwdriver, to deliver either the ribbon element or the moving coil omni unit, or both for the cardioid response. Whilst OK on a Mole Richardson booms in LG, they were too heavy for the slimmer Fishers in TVC, so they were abandoned in favour of the much lighter AKG D25, whichhelpfully had a coloured reverse, to avoid being mounted backwards! Much used by the Film Unit, as there was a globe shaped windshield for exterior use. My recollection of the tech supply mains plugs is also the same. The blasted live pin was also the fuse - if it came loose and remained stuck in the wall socket, what did we do? Maybe wait for the studio TA to come with some insulated pliers? Don't think the wall outlet had a dedicated on/off switch. Why different? - think it was a stabilised power supply for tech equipment. While as a Gram Op, leaning on two TR90's, one hand on each, I received a 240v belt across my chest, which was powerful enough to fling me back across the room. The TVC nurse was worried, forbidding me to drive myself home, so I think I was sent off by taxi, picking my car up next day. There had been an earth fault in_both_ of the mains cables to the machines. Guess I know what Frankenstein's creation experienced, but I lack the bolt through my neck! (Don't defibrillators deliver a jump shock to re-start the heart? Mine did not stop, so maybe just a top-up charge, then!) I'm surprised that more damage wasn't inflicted on the poor tape machines. I was outside LG one day and witnessed a TR90 being unloaded from a lorry, by yanking it off the tailboard with a 4 foot drop to the ground. Probably destined for me in LG 'D' - ordered for Dr. Who. I'm sure you've seen this pic before. (Radio Times publicity shot) Bish, me, with Verity Lambert) Regards Pat On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, > 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The > plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring > to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again > Dave Newbitt. > *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM > *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat > *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors > Hi all, > I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing > with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia > TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. > I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, > and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for > 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! > I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you > could help his query? > "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I > am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about > F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and > when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." > > David T > www.postfade.co.uk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Dr.Who LG D Control.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 534171 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave.mdv at btinternet.com Wed Feb 8 07:31:32 2023 From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 13:31:32 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Tape machines Message-ID: <03f3baa6-4ef9-b824-325b-b25419d71317@btinternet.com> The nylon carpets in the control rooms at TVC gave rise to a lot of static electricity in the human body, so a gram op. leaning against his earthed tape machine could get an interesting tingle u-know-where! Cheers, Dave From dave.thompson.mail at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 10:04:03 2023 From: dave.thompson.mail at gmail.com (David Thompson) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 16:04:03 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] 4038 adaptor Message-ID: <4A8F036D-325F-4D50-B22E-9F1F05D7EF24@gmail.com> Apropos the chat about 4038s I recall that in the mid sixties it was decided to convert TVC from F &E connectors to XLR. The impedance mis-match was ignored. Some time later I did a test (with Mark holland ) and out of 52 X 4038s all but three were, by then, 300 ohm. Since 4038s were mainly used for audiences the drop arms retained the ST&C connectors. However, 4038s were often used for Band mics so this meant that suitable cables had to be retained. I was at that time working with a number of LE Sound Supervisors so with a bit of suitable steel tubing I made up a small inline adaptor and then offered it as a technical suggestion. (Eventually Coles produced its own, more sophisticated version). Interestingly a number of the DIN plug 451s went back to the AKG office on Uxbridge Rd and were replaced with the XLR version. I remember this because I was able to buy some of the old DIN version from them very cheaply. John Howcroft managed to persuade, as only he could, someone to convert the audience drop arms! There was some resistance to XLRs from one Sound Manager - John EE, who was concerned that the latch on the XLR was not secure enough for hand held vocal mics, so we had to retain suitable mic cables with the Tuchel 3 pin DIN plug which had a sleeve locking device. AKG and Beyer both had these connectors (451 and M100). After a time commonsense prevailed! From doug at puddifoot.me Wed Feb 8 11:30:57 2023 From: doug at puddifoot.me (Doug Puddifoot) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 17:30:57 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors Message-ID: Many years ago there was a TM watching a scene on the studio floor. He rested one hand on a floor light and reached across and touched a boom. He got a mighty shock. Dr Jonathan Miller was on the floor directing at the time and I believe saved his life. I'm sorry I can't rember the name, but I'm sure someone will know the details. Doug On 8 February 2023, at 12:54, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: Well remembered, Dave Newbitt. My memory is hazy, but I do recall that 4038's were 30ohm, and the wall boxes had different pin connections for the terminating transformers? The 38's were lovely mics, mainly used for slung audience pick up, the dead side presented to the Pamphonic audience PA speakers. Also much used on trombones. They were stored in nice wooden boxes, with a felt lined metal sleeve into which the mic fitted. A directive was that microphones should only be put down on a clean sheet of white paper to avoid the magnets attracting tiny metallic particles which could jam up the ribbon. They had their own plug type, different to any other mic, and floor stands were available with that plug integral. As far as boom mics were concerned, the standard 4033 could be switched, with a screwdriver, to deliver either the ribbon element or the moving coil omni unit, or both for the cardioid response. Whilst OK on a Mole Richardson booms in LG, they were too heavy for the slimmer Fishers in TVC, so they were abandoned in favour of the much lighter AKG D25, whichhelpfully had a coloured reverse, to avoid being mounted backwards! Much used by the Film Unit, as there was a globe shaped windshield for exterior use. My recollection of the tech supply mains plugs is also the same. The blasted live pin was also the fuse - if it came loose and remained stuck in the wall socket, what did we do? Maybe wait for the studio TA to come with some insulated pliers? Don't think the wall outlet had a dedicated on/off switch. Why different? - think it was a stabilised power supply for tech equipment. While as a Gram Op, leaning on two TR90's, one hand on each, I received a 240v belt across my chest, which was powerful enough to fling me back across the room. The TVC nurse was worried, forbidding me to drive myself home, so I think I was sent off by taxi, picking my car up next day. There had been an earth fault in_both_ of the mains cables to the machines. Guess I know what Frankenstein's creation experienced, but I lack the bolt through my neck! (Don't defibrillators deliver a jump shock to re-start the heart? Mine did not stop, so maybe just a top-up charge, then!) I'm surprised that more damage wasn't inflicted on the poor tape machines. I was outside LG one day and witnessed a TR90 being unloaded from a lorry, by yanking it off the tailboard with a 4 foot drop to the ground. Probably destined for me in LG 'D' - ordered for Dr. Who. I'm sure you've seen this pic before. (Radio Times publicity shot) Bish, me, with Verity Lambert) Regards Pat On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, > 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The > plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring > to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again > Dave Newbitt. > *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM > *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat > *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors > Hi all, > I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing > with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia > TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. > I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, > and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for > 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! > I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you > could help his query? > "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I > am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about > F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and > when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." > > David T > www.postfade.co.uk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 14:30:36 2023 From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 20:30:36 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Doug and all, I seem to remember that story though not the finer points about Jonathan Miller?s involvement which was good hear. I?m sure it would?ve been spoken about at one of Gavin Burket?s Safety lectures and I bet Dudley Darby will know more. Dudley, if you do, tell us all, Geoff Hawkes > On 8 Feb 2023, at 17:31, Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Many years ago there was a TM watching a scene on the studio floor. He rested one hand on a floor light and reached across and touched a boom. He got a mighty shock. Dr Jonathan Miller was on the floor directing at the time and I believe saved his life. I'm sorry I can't rember the name, but I'm sure someone will know the details. > > Doug > > On 8 February 2023, at 12:54, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > Well remembered, Dave Newbitt. My memory is hazy, but I do recall that > 4038's were 30ohm, and the wall boxes had different pin connections for > the terminating transformers? > The 38's were lovely mics, mainly used for slung audience pick up, the > dead side presented to the Pamphonic audience PA speakers. Also much > used on trombones. > They were stored in nice wooden boxes, with a felt lined metal sleeve > into which the mic fitted. A directive was that microphones should only > be put down on a clean sheet of white > paper to avoid the magnets attracting tiny metallic particles which > could jam up the ribbon. They had their own plug type, different to any > other mic, and floor stands > were available with that plug integral. > As far as boom mics were concerned, the standard 4033 could be switched, > with a screwdriver, to deliver either the ribbon element or the moving > coil omni unit, or both > for the cardioid response. Whilst OK on a Mole Richardson booms in LG, > they were too heavy for the slimmer Fishers in TVC, so they were > abandoned in favour of the much lighter AKG D25, > whichhelpfully had a coloured reverse, to avoid being mounted backwards! > Much used by the Film Unit, as there was a globe shaped windshield for > exterior use. > > My recollection of the tech supply mains plugs is also the same. The > blasted live pin was also the fuse - if it came loose and remained stuck > in the wall socket, what did we do? > Maybe wait for the studio TA to come with some insulated pliers? Don't > think the wall outlet had a dedicated on/off switch. Why different? - > think it was a stabilised power > supply for tech equipment. > While as a Gram Op, leaning on two TR90's, one hand on each, I received > a 240v belt across my chest, which was powerful enough to fling me back > across the room. > The TVC nurse was worried, forbidding me to drive myself home, so I > think I was sent off by taxi, picking my car up next day. > There had been an earth fault in_both_ of the mains cables to the machines. > Guess I know what Frankenstein's creation experienced, but I lack the > bolt through my neck! > > (Don't defibrillators deliver a jump shock to re-start the heart? Mine > did not stop, so maybe just a top-up charge, then!) > > I'm surprised that more damage wasn't inflicted on the poor tape > machines. I was outside LG one day and witnessed a TR90 being unloaded > from a lorry, > by yanking it off the tailboard with a 4 foot drop to the ground. > Probably destined for me in LG 'D' - ordered for Dr. Who. > I'm sure you've seen this pic before. (Radio Times publicity shot) Bish, > me, with Verity Lambert) > > Regards > > Pat > > >> On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >> >> As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, >> 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The >> plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring >> to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again >> Dave Newbitt. >> *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM >> *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat >> *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors >> Hi all, >> I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing >> with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia >> TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. >> I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, >> and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for >> 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! >> I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you >> could help his query? >> "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I >> am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about >> F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and >> when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." >> >> David T >> www.postfade.co.uk >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From ian.norman at armoor.co.uk Wed Feb 8 14:51:05 2023 From: ian.norman at armoor.co.uk (Ian Norman) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 20:51:05 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Doug, Hello. The TM1 was John Treays, I think it was one of the Shakespeare productions. Stay safe Ian Norman Email: mailto:ian.norman at armoor.co.uk Telephone: 01643 888181 On 08/02/2023 17:30, Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 wrote: > Many years ago there was a TM watching a scene on the studio floor. He rested one hand on a floor light and reached across and touched a boom. He got a mighty shock. Dr Jonathan Miller was on the floor directing at the time and I believe saved his life. I'm sorry I can't rember the name, but I'm sure someone will know the details. > > Doug > > On 8 February 2023, at 12:54, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > Well remembered, Dave Newbitt. My memory is hazy, but I do recall that > 4038's were 30ohm, and the wall boxes had different pin connections for > the terminating transformers? > The 38's were lovely mics, mainly used for slung audience pick up, the > dead side presented to the Pamphonic audience PA speakers. Also much > used on trombones. > They were stored in nice wooden boxes, with a felt lined metal sleeve > into which the mic fitted. A directive was that microphones should only > be put down on a clean sheet of white > paper to avoid the magnets attracting tiny metallic particles which > could jam up the ribbon. They had their own plug type, different to any > other mic, and floor stands > were available with that plug integral. > As far as boom mics were concerned, the standard 4033 could be switched, > with a screwdriver, to deliver either the ribbon element or the moving > coil omni unit, or both > for the cardioid response. Whilst OK on a Mole Richardson booms in LG, > they were too heavy for the slimmer Fishers in TVC, so they were > abandoned in favour of the much lighter AKG D25, > whichhelpfully had a coloured reverse, to avoid being mounted backwards! > Much used by the Film Unit, as there was a globe shaped windshield for > exterior use. > > My recollection of the tech supply mains plugs is also the same. The > blasted live pin was also the fuse - if it came loose and remained stuck > in the wall socket, what did we do? > Maybe wait for the studio TA to come with some insulated pliers? Don't > think the wall outlet had a dedicated on/off switch. Why different? - > think it was a stabilised power > supply for tech equipment. > While as a Gram Op, leaning on two TR90's, one hand on each, I received > a 240v belt across my chest, which was powerful enough to fling me back > across the room. > The TVC nurse was worried, forbidding me to drive myself home, so I > think I was sent off by taxi, picking my car up next day. > There had been an earth fault in_both_ of the mains cables to the machines. > Guess I know what Frankenstein's creation experienced, but I lack the > bolt through my neck! > > (Don't defibrillators deliver a jump shock to re-start the heart? Mine > did not stop, so maybe just a top-up charge, then!) > > I'm surprised that more damage wasn't inflicted on the poor tape > machines. I was outside LG one day and witnessed a TR90 being unloaded > from a lorry, > by yanking it off the tailboard with a 4 foot drop to the ground. > Probably destined for me in LG 'D' - ordered for Dr. Who. > I'm sure you've seen this pic before. (Radio Times publicity shot) Bish, > me, with Verity Lambert) > > Regards > > Pat > > > On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > >> As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, >> 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The >> plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring >> to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again >> Dave Newbitt. >> *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM >> *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat >> *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors >> Hi all, >> I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing >> with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia >> TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. >> I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, >> and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for >> 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! >> I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you >> could help his query? >> "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I >> am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about >> F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and >> when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." >> >> David T >> www.postfade.co.uk >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> From david at davidtaylorsound.co.uk Wed Feb 8 15:00:43 2023 From: david at davidtaylorsound.co.uk (David Taylor) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 21:00:43 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, Thanks for what you've written so far. I should be able to give Martin Mitchell some more info on the F&E/EP connectors now. Doug, I'm glad to hear that John Treays was OK after Dr. Miller's intervention. John was such a delight to work with in my years at Limehouse Studios on Canary Wharf. Dave T On Wed, 8 Feb 2023 at 20:51, Ian Norman via Tech1 wrote: > Dear Doug, > > Hello. > > The TM1 was John Treays, I think it was one of the Shakespeare productions. > > > Stay safe > > Ian Norman > > Email: mailto:ian.norman at armoor.co.uk > Telephone: 01643 888181 > > On 08/02/2023 17:30, Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 wrote: > > Many years ago there was a TM watching a scene on the studio floor. He > rested one hand on a floor light and reached across and touched a boom. He > got a mighty shock. Dr Jonathan Miller was on the floor directing at the > time and I believe saved his life. I'm sorry I can't rember the name, but > I'm sure someone will know the details. > > > > Doug > > > > On 8 February 2023, at 12:54, Pat Heigham via Tech1 < > tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote: > > > > Well remembered, Dave Newbitt. My memory is hazy, but I do recall that > > 4038's were 30ohm, and the wall boxes had different pin connections for > > the terminating transformers? > > The 38's were lovely mics, mainly used for slung audience pick up, the > > dead side presented to the Pamphonic audience PA speakers. Also much > > used on trombones. > > They were stored in nice wooden boxes, with a felt lined metal sleeve > > into which the mic fitted. A directive was that microphones should only > > be put down on a clean sheet of white > > paper to avoid the magnets attracting tiny metallic particles which > > could jam up the ribbon. They had their own plug type, different to any > > other mic, and floor stands > > were available with that plug integral. > > As far as boom mics were concerned, the standard 4033 could be switched, > > with a screwdriver, to deliver either the ribbon element or the moving > > coil omni unit, or both > > for the cardioid response. Whilst OK on a Mole Richardson booms in LG, > > they were too heavy for the slimmer Fishers in TVC, so they were > > abandoned in favour of the much lighter AKG D25, > > whichhelpfully had a coloured reverse, to avoid being mounted backwards! > > Much used by the Film Unit, as there was a globe shaped windshield for > > exterior use. > > > > My recollection of the tech supply mains plugs is also the same. The > > blasted live pin was also the fuse - if it came loose and remained stuck > > in the wall socket, what did we do? > > Maybe wait for the studio TA to come with some insulated pliers? Don't > > think the wall outlet had a dedicated on/off switch. Why different? - > > think it was a stabilised power > > supply for tech equipment. > > While as a Gram Op, leaning on two TR90's, one hand on each, I received > > a 240v belt across my chest, which was powerful enough to fling me back > > across the room. > > The TVC nurse was worried, forbidding me to drive myself home, so I > > think I was sent off by taxi, picking my car up next day. > > There had been an earth fault in_both_ of the mains cables to the > machines. > > Guess I know what Frankenstein's creation experienced, but I lack the > > bolt through my neck! > > > > (Don't defibrillators deliver a jump shock to re-start the heart? Mine > > did not stop, so maybe just a top-up charge, then!) > > > > I'm surprised that more damage wasn't inflicted on the poor tape > > machines. I was outside LG one day and witnessed a TR90 being unloaded > > from a lorry, > > by yanking it off the tailboard with a 4 foot drop to the ground. > > Probably destined for me in LG 'D' - ordered for Dr. Who. > > I'm sure you've seen this pic before. (Radio Times publicity shot) Bish, > > me, with Verity Lambert) > > > > Regards > > > > Pat > > > > > > On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > > > >> As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, > >> 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The > >> plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring > >> to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet > again > >> Dave Newbitt. > >> *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM > >> *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat > >> *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors > >> Hi all, > >> I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing > >> with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia > >> TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. > >> I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, > >> and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for > >> 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! > >> I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you > >> could help his query? > >> "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I > >> am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about > >> F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and > >> when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." > >> > >> David T > >> www.postfade.co.uk > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> -- > >> Tech1 mailing list > >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > >> > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hughsnape at talktalk.net Wed Feb 8 16:34:51 2023 From: hughsnape at talktalk.net (Hugh Snape) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 22:34:51 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Tape machines In-Reply-To: <03f3baa6-4ef9-b824-325b-b25419d71317@btinternet.com> References: <03f3baa6-4ef9-b824-325b-b25419d71317@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> It was the same in the basement studios at BH during the winter months, we used to work without our shoes on to avoid static shocks, the latter would upset the B62 tape machines which would occasionally drop in to play as a consequence of a splat. NB, the BBC issued anti-static aerosols to spray onto the carpet; they made no difference as I recall . . . Hugh Snape > On 8 Feb 2023, at 13:31, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote: > > The nylon carpets in the control rooms at TVC gave rise to a lot of static electricity in the human body, so a gram op. leaning against his earthed tape machine could get an interesting tingle u-know-where! Cheers, Dave > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From hughsnape at talktalk.net Wed Feb 8 16:48:35 2023 From: hughsnape at talktalk.net (Hugh Snape) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 22:48:35 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] 4038 adaptor In-Reply-To: <4A8F036D-325F-4D50-B22E-9F1F05D7EF24@gmail.com> References: <4A8F036D-325F-4D50-B22E-9F1F05D7EF24@gmail.com> Message-ID: <115D1389-41B8-4660-81CA-E7B81FBF53F5@talktalk.net> Despite later experience which convinced me XLR latches were secure enough I once had reason to doubt it. When I was a trainee SM at BH in 1978 I hung a 451 out of one of the 5th edit channels to record a bit of ?city skyline? from Portland Place. The result was perfectly good but when I drew the mic back inside the latch must have caught on the metal windowsill and to my horror the cable and XLR came back in minus the mic. I shot down to the ground floor and out into the street below where, lying sadly on the pavement, was a rather badly bent 451. Thank goodness the mic.hadn't hit anyone and the incident hadn?t been noticed (it was around 17:00 so the street was fairly busy.) I skulked back up the the channel, filled in a fault report and anticipated a grilling about what had happened, not least because 451?s were rather rare at that time. But, I never heard anything more about it . . . Hugh Snape > On 8 Feb 2023, at 16:04, David Thompson via Tech1 wrote: > > Apropos the chat about 4038s I recall that in the mid sixties it was decided to convert TVC from F &E connectors to XLR. > The impedance mis-match was ignored. > Some time later I did a test (with Mark holland ) and out of 52 X 4038s all but three were, by then, 300 ohm. > Since 4038s were mainly used for audiences the drop arms retained the ST&C connectors. > However, 4038s were often used for Band mics so this meant that suitable cables had to be retained. > I was at that time working with a number of LE Sound Supervisors so with a bit of suitable steel tubing I made up a small inline adaptor and then offered it as a technical suggestion. (Eventually Coles produced its own, more sophisticated version). > Interestingly a number of the DIN plug 451s went back to the AKG office on Uxbridge Rd and were replaced with the XLR version. I remember this because I was able to buy some of the old DIN version from them very cheaply. > John Howcroft managed to persuade, as only he could, someone to convert the audience drop arms! > > There was some resistance to XLRs from one Sound Manager - John EE, who was concerned that the latch on the XLR was not secure enough for hand held vocal mics, so we had to retain suitable mic cables with the Tuchel 3 pin DIN plug which had a sleeve locking device. AKG and Beyer both had these connectors (451 and M100). > After a time commonsense prevailed! > > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From philiptyler at me.com Wed Feb 8 16:55:11 2023 From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 22:55:11 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F3FD8EA-0245-42CD-A598-8AD772DBC007@me.com> I think it was more ironic than that, the Lighting Director climb onto the boom to adjust a light himself. Thankfully the replacement LD, very nice guy name escapes me, was much better at lighting than the Prince of Darkness was. Philip > On 8 Feb 2023, at 20:31, Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Doug and all, > I seem to remember that story though not the finer points about Jonathan Miller?s involvement which was good hear. I?m sure it would?ve been spoken about at one of Gavin Burket?s Safety lectures and I bet Dudley Darby will know more. Dudley, if you do, tell us all, > Geoff Hawkes > >> On 8 Feb 2023, at 17:31, Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ?Many years ago there was a TM watching a scene on the studio floor. He rested one hand on a floor light and reached across and touched a boom. He got a mighty shock. Dr Jonathan Miller was on the floor directing at the time and I believe saved his life. I'm sorry I can't rember the name, but I'm sure someone will know the details. >> >> Doug >> >> On 8 February 2023, at 12:54, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >> >> Well remembered, Dave Newbitt. My memory is hazy, but I do recall that >> 4038's were 30ohm, and the wall boxes had different pin connections for >> the terminating transformers? >> The 38's were lovely mics, mainly used for slung audience pick up, the >> dead side presented to the Pamphonic audience PA speakers. Also much >> used on trombones. >> They were stored in nice wooden boxes, with a felt lined metal sleeve >> into which the mic fitted. A directive was that microphones should only >> be put down on a clean sheet of white >> paper to avoid the magnets attracting tiny metallic particles which >> could jam up the ribbon. They had their own plug type, different to any >> other mic, and floor stands >> were available with that plug integral. >> As far as boom mics were concerned, the standard 4033 could be switched, >> with a screwdriver, to deliver either the ribbon element or the moving >> coil omni unit, or both >> for the cardioid response. Whilst OK on a Mole Richardson booms in LG, >> they were too heavy for the slimmer Fishers in TVC, so they were >> abandoned in favour of the much lighter AKG D25, >> whichhelpfully had a coloured reverse, to avoid being mounted backwards! >> Much used by the Film Unit, as there was a globe shaped windshield for >> exterior use. >> >> My recollection of the tech supply mains plugs is also the same. The >> blasted live pin was also the fuse - if it came loose and remained stuck >> in the wall socket, what did we do? >> Maybe wait for the studio TA to come with some insulated pliers? Don't >> think the wall outlet had a dedicated on/off switch. Why different? - >> think it was a stabilised power >> supply for tech equipment. >> While as a Gram Op, leaning on two TR90's, one hand on each, I received >> a 240v belt across my chest, which was powerful enough to fling me back >> across the room. >> The TVC nurse was worried, forbidding me to drive myself home, so I >> think I was sent off by taxi, picking my car up next day. >> There had been an earth fault in_both_ of the mains cables to the machines. >> Guess I know what Frankenstein's creation experienced, but I lack the >> bolt through my neck! >> >> (Don't defibrillators deliver a jump shock to re-start the heart? Mine >> did not stop, so maybe just a top-up charge, then!) >> >> I'm surprised that more damage wasn't inflicted on the poor tape >> machines. I was outside LG one day and witnessed a TR90 being unloaded >> from a lorry, >> by yanking it off the tailboard with a 4 foot drop to the ground. >> Probably destined for me in LG 'D' - ordered for Dr. Who. >> I'm sure you've seen this pic before. (Radio Times publicity shot) Bish, >> me, with Verity Lambert) >> >> Regards >> >> Pat >> >> >>>> On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, >>> 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The >>> plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring >>> to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again >>> Dave Newbitt. >>> *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM >>> *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat >>> *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors >>> Hi all, >>> I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing >>> with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia >>> TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. >>> I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, >>> and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for >>> 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! >>> I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you >>> could help his query? >>> "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I >>> am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about >>> F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and >>> when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." >>> >>> David T >>> www.postfade.co.uk >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From hughsnape at talktalk.net Wed Feb 8 16:56:35 2023 From: hughsnape at talktalk.net (Hugh Snape) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 22:56:35 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting to see the TD7s lined up behind the TR90s in your photo Pat, and what a collection of mixers in the background. NB the 4038s used Thistle plugs . . . Hugh Snape > On 8 Feb 2023, at 17:30, Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 wrote: > > Many years ago there was a TM watching a scene on the studio floor. He rested one hand on a floor light and reached across and touched a boom. He got a mighty shock. Dr Jonathan Miller was on the floor directing at the time and I believe saved his life. I'm sorry I can't rember the name, but I'm sure someone will know the details. > > Doug > > On 8 February 2023, at 12:54, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > Well remembered, Dave Newbitt. My memory is hazy, but I do recall that > 4038's were 30ohm, and the wall boxes had different pin connections for > the terminating transformers? > The 38's were lovely mics, mainly used for slung audience pick up, the > dead side presented to the Pamphonic audience PA speakers. Also much > used on trombones. > They were stored in nice wooden boxes, with a felt lined metal sleeve > into which the mic fitted. A directive was that microphones should only > be put down on a clean sheet of white > paper to avoid the magnets attracting tiny metallic particles which > could jam up the ribbon. They had their own plug type, different to any > other mic, and floor stands > were available with that plug integral. > As far as boom mics were concerned, the standard 4033 could be switched, > with a screwdriver, to deliver either the ribbon element or the moving > coil omni unit, or both > for the cardioid response. Whilst OK on a Mole Richardson booms in LG, > they were too heavy for the slimmer Fishers in TVC, so they were > abandoned in favour of the much lighter AKG D25, > whichhelpfully had a coloured reverse, to avoid being mounted backwards! > Much used by the Film Unit, as there was a globe shaped windshield for > exterior use. > > My recollection of the tech supply mains plugs is also the same. The > blasted live pin was also the fuse - if it came loose and remained stuck > in the wall socket, what did we do? > Maybe wait for the studio TA to come with some insulated pliers? Don't > think the wall outlet had a dedicated on/off switch. Why different? - > think it was a stabilised power > supply for tech equipment. > While as a Gram Op, leaning on two TR90's, one hand on each, I received > a 240v belt across my chest, which was powerful enough to fling me back > across the room. > The TVC nurse was worried, forbidding me to drive myself home, so I > think I was sent off by taxi, picking my car up next day. > There had been an earth fault in_both_ of the mains cables to the machines. > Guess I know what Frankenstein's creation experienced, but I lack the > bolt through my neck! > > (Don't defibrillators deliver a jump shock to re-start the heart? Mine > did not stop, so maybe just a top-up charge, then!) > > I'm surprised that more damage wasn't inflicted on the poor tape > machines. I was outside LG one day and witnessed a TR90 being unloaded > from a lorry, > by yanking it off the tailboard with a 4 foot drop to the ground. > Probably destined for me in LG 'D' - ordered for Dr. Who. > I'm sure you've seen this pic before. (Radio Times publicity shot) Bish, > me, with Verity Lambert) > > Regards > > Pat > > > On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > >> As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, >> 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The >> plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring >> to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again >> Dave Newbitt. >> *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM >> *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat >> *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors >> Hi all, >> I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing >> with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia >> TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. >> I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, >> and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for >> 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! >> I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you >> could help his query? >> "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I >> am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about >> F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and >> when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." >> >> David T >> www.postfade.co.uk >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From philiptyler at me.com Wed Feb 8 16:56:49 2023 From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 22:56:49 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mibridge at mac.com Wed Feb 8 17:20:34 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 23:20:34 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] 4038 adaptor In-Reply-To: <115D1389-41B8-4660-81CA-E7B81FBF53F5@talktalk.net> References: <115D1389-41B8-4660-81CA-E7B81FBF53F5@talktalk.net> Message-ID: I suppose it could be said that XLRs had the belt, but not the braces, Hugh. Mike G > On 8 Feb 2023, at 22:49, Hugh Snape via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Despite later experience which convinced me XLR latches were secure enough I once had reason to doubt it. When I was a trainee SM at BH in 1978 I hung a 451 out of one of the 5th edit channels to record a bit of ?city skyline? from Portland Place. The result was perfectly good but when I drew the mic back inside the latch must have caught on the metal windowsill and to my horror the cable and XLR came back in minus the mic. > > I shot down to the ground floor and out into the street below where, lying sadly on the pavement, was a rather badly bent 451. Thank goodness the mic.hadn't hit anyone and the incident hadn?t been noticed (it was around 17:00 so the street was fairly busy.) > > I skulked back up the the channel, filled in a fault report and anticipated a grilling about what had happened, not least because 451?s were rather rare at that time. But, I never heard anything more about it . . . > > Hugh Snape > > >> On 8 Feb 2023, at 16:04, David Thompson via Tech1 wrote: >> >> Apropos the chat about 4038s I recall that in the mid sixties it was decided to convert TVC from F &E connectors to XLR. >> The impedance mis-match was ignored. >> Some time later I did a test (with Mark holland ) and out of 52 X 4038s all but three were, by then, 300 ohm. >> Since 4038s were mainly used for audiences the drop arms retained the ST&C connectors. >> However, 4038s were often used for Band mics so this meant that suitable cables had to be retained. >> I was at that time working with a number of LE Sound Supervisors so with a bit of suitable steel tubing I made up a small inline adaptor and then offered it as a technical suggestion. (Eventually Coles produced its own, more sophisticated version). >> Interestingly a number of the DIN plug 451s went back to the AKG office on Uxbridge Rd and were replaced with the XLR version. I remember this because I was able to buy some of the old DIN version from them very cheaply. >> John Howcroft managed to persuade, as only he could, someone to convert the audience drop arms! >> >> There was some resistance to XLRs from one Sound Manager - John EE, who was concerned that the latch on the XLR was not secure enough for hand held vocal mics, so we had to retain suitable mic cables with the Tuchel 3 pin DIN plug which had a sleeve locking device. AKG and Beyer both had these connectors (451 and M100). >> After a time commonsense prevailed! >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From mibridge at mac.com Wed Feb 8 17:23:24 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 23:23:24 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Tape machines In-Reply-To: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> References: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> Message-ID: I fancy I recall people deliberately scuffing across nylon carpets, then pointing a carefully aimed digit at someone?s ear-lobe, to great effect! Mike G > On 8 Feb 2023, at 22:35, Hugh Snape via Tech1 wrote: > > ?It was the same in the basement studios at BH during the winter months, we used to work without our shoes on to avoid static shocks, the latter would upset the B62 tape machines which would occasionally drop in to play as a consequence of a splat. > > NB, the BBC issued anti-static aerosols to spray onto the carpet; they made no difference as I recall . . . > > Hugh Snape > >> On 8 Feb 2023, at 13:31, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote: >> >> The nylon carpets in the control rooms at TVC gave rise to a lot of static electricity in the human body, so a gram op. leaning against his earthed tape machine could get an interesting tingle u-know-where! Cheers, Dave >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From mibridge at mac.com Wed Feb 8 17:26:33 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 23:26:33 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Thu Feb 9 06:34:14 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 12:34:14 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines In-Reply-To: References: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> Message-ID: <7d4eff1b-5243-820f-02bf-b6e152f4907f@amps.net> Tut, tut, Mike. Schoolboy pranks! But on a serious note, static is a problem. Aircraft must be earthed before re-fuelling, or people touching the fuselage. (witnessed that when light aircraft re-fuelled at Hamburg - just taxied up to the pumps! But had to be careful of the wingspan). On 'Some Mothers', Crawford was dangling from a helicopter. The assistant director rushed forward to assist his landing, and got a large belt from the static build up. (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v - surely the current involved is far more lethal? Pat On 08/02/2023 23:23, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: > I fancy I recall people deliberately scuffing across nylon carpets, then pointing a carefully aimed digit at someone?s ear-lobe, to great effect! > > Mike G From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 06:56:45 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 12:56:45 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines In-Reply-To: <7d4eff1b-5243-820f-02bf-b6e152f4907f@amps.net> References: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> <7d4eff1b-5243-820f-02bf-b6e152f4907f@amps.net> Message-ID: <3b39910c-210f-af04-cd0f-d87af4d57678@gmail.com> I=V/R, Pat. If the resistance of your body is constant, the higher voltage produces more current flow through it. On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > Tut, tut, Mike. Schoolboy pranks! > > But on a serious note, static is a problem. > > Aircraft must be earthed before re-fuelling, or people touching the > fuselage. > (witnessed that when light aircraft re-fuelled at Hamburg - just taxied > up to > the pumps! But had to be careful of the wingspan). > On 'Some Mothers', Crawford was dangling from a helicopter. The assistant > director rushed forward to assist his landing, and got a large belt from > the static build up. > > (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be > very high, > but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for > 110/115v > - surely the current involved is far more lethal? > > Pat > > > On 08/02/2023 23:23, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: > >> I fancy I recall people deliberately scuffing across nylon carpets, >> then pointing a carefully aimed digit at someone?s ear-lobe, to great >> effect! >> >> Mike G > From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Thu Feb 9 07:05:34 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 13:05:34 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines In-Reply-To: <7d4eff1b-5243-820f-02bf-b6e152f4907f@amps.net> References: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> <7d4eff1b-5243-820f-02bf-b6e152f4907f@amps.net> Message-ID: On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > ..... > (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be > very high, > but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for > 110/115v > - surely the current involved is far more lethal? > > Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. Caution is always necessary! Chris Woolf From pat.heigham at amps.net Thu Feb 9 09:16:53 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 15:16:53 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines In-Reply-To: References: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> <7d4eff1b-5243-820f-02bf-b6e152f4907f@amps.net> Message-ID: Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as JohnEden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) However, I was accepted into the Television Service. Pat On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: > > On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >> ..... >> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can >> be very high, >> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for >> 110/115v >> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >> >> > Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same > thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms > (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to > 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of > resistances to push the damaging current through you. > > A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if > flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you > would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by > 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe > enough to not need most safety regulations. > > Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static > dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually > accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need > grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low > enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person > touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for > long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. > > A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. > > Caution is always necessary! > > Chris Woolf > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jccglass at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 10:33:17 2023 From: jccglass at gmail.com (Chris on GMail) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 16:33:17 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines/ ohms law In-Reply-To: References: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> <7d4eff1b-5243-820f-02bf-b6e152f4907f@amps.net> Message-ID: <78534dfe-0faf-cfc4-de9a-7fbdcfcaa931@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ohms law2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68393 bytes Desc: not available URL: From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 12:33:14 2023 From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 18:33:14 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5189CDB2-ADE6-4CD7-86DB-2DCCD06B620F@gmail.com> John, John was on my recruitment board too. On my application form I?d given tape-recording as one of my hobby interests he quizzed me as to what deck I had and how it worked. Fortunately I?d read Percy Guy?s book ?How to get the best from your tape recorder? so was able to acquit myself quite adequately, along with answers on microphone response patterns, omni and figure of eight, though I forgot about cardiod. I was also asked to quote Ohm?s Law and thankfully managed to dredge that up, albeit hesitantly from my brief dalliance with Physics ?O? Level in the previous year. I think the chairman was called Adam Gordon but I can?t remember for sure as it could?ve been recruitment officer Whicher and who the third man was, I don?t know. One of them quizzed me about photography, f-numbers and the relationship with shutter speed to determine the correct exposure, as well as basic Portrait Lighting using four lights. I got three out of four, ie a key light (and yes, I actually knew the name) a fill light and a background light, but not the rim light. I?m sure some of you would?ve scored full marks on that from what?s bee said on here recently. However well or poorly we may have felt we did as we crept from the interview room at The Langham at that time, the fact that we are here testifies to our sufficient success in becoming Aunties trusted servants, for which we are truly grateful, Geoff > On 9 Feb 2023, at 15:17, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > ? > Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. > > My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: > > At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. > Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. > I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! > Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. > Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) > However, I was accepted into the Television Service. > Pat > On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >>> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> ..... >>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, >>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v >>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>> >>> >> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. >> >> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. >> >> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >> >> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >> >> Caution is always necessary! >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Thu Feb 9 12:56:13 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 18:56:13 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines/ ohms law In-Reply-To: <78534dfe-0faf-cfc4-de9a-7fbdcfcaa931@gmail.com> References: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net><7d4eff1b-5243-820f-02bf-b6e152f4907f@amps.net> <78534dfe-0faf-cfc4-de9a-7fbdcfcaa931@gmail.com> Message-ID: <61985D7ADE1748C499ADC91B4D75799B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Brilliant ? love it! Dave Newbitt From: Chris on GMail via Tech1 Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 4:33 PM To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines/ ohms law -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ohms law2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68393 bytes Desc: not available URL: From j at howell61.f9.co.uk Thu Feb 9 17:18:54 2023 From: j at howell61.f9.co.uk (John Howell) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 23:18:54 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Tape machines In-Reply-To: References: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> Message-ID: <3cb0baf7-7432-bc43-c45e-f7f92c2397de@howell61.f9.co.uk> If you included neon screwdriver in the circuit and touched the input of a speaker amplifier you would get a burst of clicks and the neon would flash in sync, you've got yourself a Relaxation Oscillator. Off-topic? Naah, these circuits were used in the frame timebases of old TV sets, look for the violet glow of a Mazda 6P25! (& that's not a car). Hibou. On 08/02/2023 23:23, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: > I fancy I recall people deliberately scuffing across nylon carpets, then pointing a carefully aimed digit at someone?s ear-lobe, to great effect! > > Mike G -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoffletch at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 17:31:54 2023 From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 23:31:54 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines In-Reply-To: <5189CDB2-ADE6-4CD7-86DB-2DCCD06B620F@gmail.com> References: <5189CDB2-ADE6-4CD7-86DB-2DCCD06B620F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I too fell foul of Ohms Law at my interview board in the summer of 1963. I was working in the R&D labs at GEC in Birmingham at the time and had just concluded a long and boring project regarding redistribute in wires. We went through all the usual stuff and I was OK on the photography and optics bits when I was given an electrical problem to solve. I went straight to my resistivity in wires calculations at GEC and covered two pages of A4 paper using calculus and God knows now what else, but came up with the correct answer. The engineering guy on the board asked to see my calculations. He perused my scribble for what seemed ages, looked at me over his half moon specs, sniffed, and said ?Very impressive, but have you never heard of Ohms Law?? I could have solved it 30 seconds. I left convinced I had ploughed it, but was offered a place as a trainee Tech Op. Geoff F On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 18:34, Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 wrote: > John, John was on my recruitment board too. On my application form I?d > given tape-recording as one of my hobby interests he quizzed me as to what > deck I had and how it worked. Fortunately I?d read Percy Guy?s book ?How to > get the best from your tape recorder? so was able to acquit myself quite > adequately, along with answers on microphone response patterns, omni and > figure of eight, though I forgot about cardiod. I was also asked to quote > Ohm?s Law and thankfully managed to dredge that up, albeit hesitantly from > my brief dalliance with Physics ?O? Level in the previous year. > I think the chairman was called Adam Gordon but I can?t remember for sure > as it could?ve been recruitment officer Whicher and who the third man was, > I don?t know. One of them quizzed me about photography, f-numbers and the > relationship with shutter speed to determine the correct exposure, as well > as basic Portrait Lighting using four lights. I got three out of four, ie a > key light (and yes, I actually knew the name) a fill light and a background > light, but not the rim light. I?m sure some of you would?ve scored full > marks on that from what?s bee said on here recently. However well or poorly > we may have felt we did as we crept from the interview room at The Langham > at that time, the fact that we are here testifies to our sufficient success > in becoming Aunties trusted servants, for which we are truly grateful, > > Geoff > > On 9 Feb 2023, at 15:17, Pat Heigham via Tech1 > wrote: > > ? > > Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. > > My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: > > At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I > didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, > I felt that that was g?bye. > > Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the > Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap > from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and > YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. > > I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the > TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate > some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were > partially right! > > Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. > > Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, > again!) > > However, I was accepted into the Television Service. > > Pat > > On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: > > > On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > ..... > (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be > very high, > but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for > 110/115v > - surely the current involved is far more lethal? > > > Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same > thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). > But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So > the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push > the damaging current through you. > > A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if > flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would > have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And > explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need > most safety regulations. > > Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static > dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to > get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before > refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although > very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded > aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - > but it could produce a burn. > > A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. > > Caution is always necessary! > > Chris Woolf > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoffletch at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 17:33:01 2023 From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 23:33:01 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines In-Reply-To: References: <5189CDB2-ADE6-4CD7-86DB-2DCCD06B620F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Resistivity - not redistribute! On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 23:31, Geoff Fletcher wrote: > I too fell foul of Ohms Law at my interview board in the summer of 1963. I > was working in the R&D labs at GEC in Birmingham at the time and had just > concluded a long and boring project regarding redistribute in wires. We > went through all the usual stuff and I was OK on the photography and optics > bits when I was given an electrical problem to solve. I went straight to my > resistivity in wires calculations at GEC and covered two pages of A4 paper > using calculus and God knows now what else, but came up with the correct > answer. The engineering guy on the board asked to see my calculations. He > perused my scribble for what seemed ages, looked at me over his half moon > specs, sniffed, and said ?Very impressive, but have you never heard of Ohms > Law?? I could have solved it 30 seconds. I left convinced I had ploughed > it, but was offered a place as a trainee Tech Op. > Geoff F > > On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 18:34, Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 < > tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote: > >> John, John was on my recruitment board too. On my application form I?d >> given tape-recording as one of my hobby interests he quizzed me as to what >> deck I had and how it worked. Fortunately I?d read Percy Guy?s book ?How to >> get the best from your tape recorder? so was able to acquit myself quite >> adequately, along with answers on microphone response patterns, omni and >> figure of eight, though I forgot about cardiod. I was also asked to quote >> Ohm?s Law and thankfully managed to dredge that up, albeit hesitantly from >> my brief dalliance with Physics ?O? Level in the previous year. >> I think the chairman was called Adam Gordon but I can?t remember for sure >> as it could?ve been recruitment officer Whicher and who the third man was, >> I don?t know. One of them quizzed me about photography, f-numbers and the >> relationship with shutter speed to determine the correct exposure, as well >> as basic Portrait Lighting using four lights. I got three out of four, ie a >> key light (and yes, I actually knew the name) a fill light and a background >> light, but not the rim light. I?m sure some of you would?ve scored full >> marks on that from what?s bee said on here recently. However well or poorly >> we may have felt we did as we crept from the interview room at The Langham >> at that time, the fact that we are here testifies to our sufficient success >> in becoming Aunties trusted servants, for which we are truly grateful, >> >> Geoff >> >> On 9 Feb 2023, at 15:17, Pat Heigham via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> ? >> >> Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. >> >> My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: >> >> At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I >> didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, >> I felt that that was g?bye. >> >> Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in >> the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap >> from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and >> YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. >> >> I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the >> TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate >> some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were >> partially right! >> >> Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. >> >> Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, >> again!) >> >> However, I was accepted into the Television Service. >> >> Pat >> >> On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >> >> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ..... >> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be >> very high, >> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for >> 110/115v >> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >> >> >> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same >> thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). >> But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So >> the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push >> the damaging current through you. >> >> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if >> flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would >> have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And >> explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need >> most safety regulations. >> >> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static >> dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to >> get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before >> refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although >> very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded >> aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - >> but it could produce a burn. >> >> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >> >> Caution is always necessary! >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 17:50:09 2023 From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 23:50:09 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] F&E Connectors In-Reply-To: <1F3FD8EA-0245-42CD-A598-8AD772DBC007@me.com> References: <1F3FD8EA-0245-42CD-A598-8AD772DBC007@me.com> Message-ID: If the shock happened after he?d climbed onto the boom platform to reach the hanging lamp, presumably he would?ve been thrown off, so more damage to himself could?ve resulted from that? Geoff > On 8 Feb 2023, at 22:55, Philip Tyler wrote: > > ?I think it was more ironic than that, the Lighting Director climb onto the boom to adjust a light himself. > Thankfully the replacement LD, very nice guy name escapes me, was much better at lighting than the Prince of Darkness was. > > Philip > >> On 8 Feb 2023, at 20:31, Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ?Doug and all, >> I seem to remember that story though not the finer points about Jonathan Miller?s involvement which was good hear. I?m sure it would?ve been spoken about at one of Gavin Burket?s Safety lectures and I bet Dudley Darby will know more. Dudley, if you do, tell us all, >> Geoff Hawkes >> >>>> On 8 Feb 2023, at 17:31, Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> ?Many years ago there was a TM watching a scene on the studio floor. He rested one hand on a floor light and reached across and touched a boom. He got a mighty shock. Dr Jonathan Miller was on the floor directing at the time and I believe saved his life. I'm sorry I can't rember the name, but I'm sure someone will know the details. >>> >>> Doug >>> >>>> On 8 February 2023, at 12:54, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> Well remembered, Dave Newbitt. My memory is hazy, but I do recall that >>> 4038's were 30ohm, and the wall boxes had different pin connections for >>> the terminating transformers? >>> The 38's were lovely mics, mainly used for slung audience pick up, the >>> dead side presented to the Pamphonic audience PA speakers. Also much >>> used on trombones. >>> They were stored in nice wooden boxes, with a felt lined metal sleeve >>> into which the mic fitted. A directive was that microphones should only >>> be put down on a clean sheet of white >>> paper to avoid the magnets attracting tiny metallic particles which >>> could jam up the ribbon. They had their own plug type, different to any >>> other mic, and floor stands >>> were available with that plug integral. >>> As far as boom mics were concerned, the standard 4033 could be switched, >>> with a screwdriver, to deliver either the ribbon element or the moving >>> coil omni unit, or both >>> for the cardioid response. Whilst OK on a Mole Richardson booms in LG, >>> they were too heavy for the slimmer Fishers in TVC, so they were >>> abandoned in favour of the much lighter AKG D25, >>> whichhelpfully had a coloured reverse, to avoid being mounted backwards! >>> Much used by the Film Unit, as there was a globe shaped windshield for >>> exterior use. >>> >>> My recollection of the tech supply mains plugs is also the same. The >>> blasted live pin was also the fuse - if it came loose and remained stuck >>> in the wall socket, what did we do? >>> Maybe wait for the studio TA to come with some insulated pliers? Don't >>> think the wall outlet had a dedicated on/off switch. Why different? - >>> think it was a stabilised power >>> supply for tech equipment. >>> While as a Gram Op, leaning on two TR90's, one hand on each, I received >>> a 240v belt across my chest, which was powerful enough to fling me back >>> across the room. >>> The TVC nurse was worried, forbidding me to drive myself home, so I >>> think I was sent off by taxi, picking my car up next day. >>> There had been an earth fault in_both_ of the mains cables to the machines. >>> Guess I know what Frankenstein's creation experienced, but I lack the >>> bolt through my neck! >>> >>> (Don't defibrillators deliver a jump shock to re-start the heart? Mine >>> did not stop, so maybe just a top-up charge, then!) >>> >>> I'm surprised that more damage wasn't inflicted on the poor tape >>> machines. I was outside LG one day and witnessed a TR90 being unloaded >>> from a lorry, >>> by yanking it off the tailboard with a 4 foot drop to the ground. >>> Probably destined for me in LG 'D' - ordered for Dr. Who. >>> I'm sure you've seen this pic before. (Radio Times publicity shot) Bish, >>> me, with Verity Lambert) >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Pat >>> >>> >>>>> On 07/02/2023 23:43, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >>>> >>>> As a sound crew man my recollection is of 3-Pin F&E for Foldback, >>>> 5-Pin for PA (Pamphonics etc.) and 7-Pin for boom and other mics. The >>>> plugs for the mic connection to the wall box had different pin wiring >>>> to accommodate either 30 or 300 ohm mics. Or is my brain failing yet again >>>> Dave Newbitt. >>>> *From:* David Taylor via Tech1 >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:07 PM >>>> *To:* Tech-Ops-chit-chat >>>> *Subject:* [Tech1] F&E Connectors >>>> Hi all, >>>> I've had a request from Martin Mitchell, who runs a website dealing >>>> with old microphones. He read one of my articles on my days at Anglia >>>> TV and wants to know about 'F&E' audio connectors. >>>> I witnessed the changeover from F&E 3-pin connectors to XLR's in 1966, >>>> and of course there were the F&E 4-pins that were used both for >>>> 'Mains'.....and as PA connectors! >>>> I've seen a mention of F&E's in an old Tech-Ops post and wonder if you >>>> could help his query? >>>> "You mention the changeover from large F&E audio connectors to XLR. I >>>> am doing some research and wondered if you had any information about >>>> F&E ? Where was the company based, what products did they make and >>>> when did they cease trading ? Anything would be helpful." >>>> >>>> David T >>>> www.postfade.co.uk >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> -- >>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>>> >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From phider at gmx.com Fri Feb 10 01:25:33 2023 From: phider at gmx.com (phider) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 07:25:33 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it ran off 110 volts DC.In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt that? cooked me like a lobster? My temperature was about 105 F when I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent me home.I could have sued for millions.On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum?Is anybody out there other than Bernie?Peter HiderSent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as John? Eden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) However, I was accepted into the Television Service. Pat On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: ..... (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v - surely the current involved is far more lethal? Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. Caution is always necessary! Chris Woolf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Fri Feb 10 01:33:40 2023 From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 07:33:40 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> References: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> Message-ID: Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) Best regards Alec Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, wrote: > A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion > Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV > Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it > ran off 110 volts DC. > > In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and > plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the wall > box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt that > cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got to the > surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was that > my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career and > possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent me home. > I could have sued for millions. > > On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? > > Is anybody out there other than Bernie? > > Peter Hider > > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 > Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) > To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines > > Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. > > My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: > > At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I > didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, > I felt that that was g?bye. > > Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the > Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap > from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and > YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. > > I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the > TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate > some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were > partially right! > > Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. > > Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, > again!) > > However, I was accepted into the Television Service. > > Pat > > On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: > > > On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > ..... > (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be > very high, > but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for > 110/115v > - surely the current involved is far more lethal? > > > Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same > thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). > But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So > the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push > the damaging current through you. > > A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if > flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would > have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And > explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need > most safety regulations. > > Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static > dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to > get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before > refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although > very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded > aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - > but it could produce a burn. > > A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. > > Caution is always necessary! > > Chris Woolf > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From graeme.wall at icloud.com Fri Feb 10 02:08:37 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 08:08:37 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: References: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> Message-ID: <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> I?m still here! Re Ohms Law, I don?t recall any technical questions on my board, though there must have been some. The only question I remember was Lawrie Duley asking me why televisions were 4:3 aspect ratio! > On 10 Feb 2023, at 07:33, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: > > Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) > Best regards Alec > > Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... > > On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, wrote: > A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it ran off 110 volts DC. > > In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt that cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent me home. > I could have sued for millions. > > On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? > > Is anybody out there other than Bernie? > > Peter Hider > > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 > Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) > To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines > > Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. > My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: > > At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. > Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. > I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! > Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. > Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) > However, I was accepted into the Television Service. > Pat > > On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> ..... >>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, >>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v >>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>> >>> >> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. >> >> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. >> >> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >> >> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >> >> Caution is always necessary! >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From mibridge at mac.com Fri Feb 10 02:31:24 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 08:31:24 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> References: <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> Message-ID: My initial interview board was in Bristol and Whicher (spelling?) was chair. I only remember vaguely about speaking of maths and physics. The fact that I had built my own canoe features more prominently in my memory of the event, which didn?t seem to take very long. I came away with no clue as to what they thought of me! Mike G > On 10 Feb 2023, at 08:09, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: > > ?I?m still here! Re Ohms Law, I don?t recall any technical questions on my board, though there must have been some. The only question I remember was Lawrie Duley asking me why televisions were 4:3 aspect ratio! > > >> On 10 Feb 2023, at 07:33, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: >> >> Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) >> Best regards Alec >> >> Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... >> >> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, wrote: >> A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it ran off 110 volts DC. >> >> In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt that cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent me home. >> I could have sued for millions. >> >> On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? >> >> Is anybody out there other than Bernie? >> >> Peter Hider >> >> >> >> Sent from my Galaxy >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 >> Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) >> To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines >> >> Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. >> My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: >> >> At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. >> Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. >> I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! >> Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. >> Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) >> However, I was accepted into the Television Service. >> Pat >> >>> On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>>> ..... >>>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, >>>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v >>>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>>> >>>> >>> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. >>> >>> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. >>> >>> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >>> >>> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >>> >>> Caution is always necessary! >>> >>> Chris Woolf >>> >>> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > ? > Graeme Wall > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From alanaudio at me.com Fri Feb 10 03:06:29 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 09:06:29 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Job interviews. Was Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> References: <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> Message-ID: When I was looking for a career, one job interview ( aeronautical engineering, not BBC ) involved me being given a drawing, a piece of stiff wire and various pliers and wire cutters. Just prior to the interview I was given ten minutes to make a wire version of the drawing, which had a 1? circle at the top, then a ?? twisted section leading to a 1? square, another twisted section below, but this time with one wire straight and the other twisted around it, leading to a 1? equilateral triangle shape. At the time I had no idea quite what they were looking for and to this day I?m still none the wiser. I assumed that they were looking for attention to detail, so I made sure that the dimensions were as similar as I could get them, that the wires were twisted in the same way as on the drawing and the cut ends of the wire were dead centre at the bottom, as in their picture. The people on that board had quite sharp minds because when they asked about my interests, they came up with impressively imaginative technical questions relating to the science behind various interests which I spoke about, but had not previously put on paper. I passed that interview, but shortly afterwards got the acceptance from the BBC which I until then I had assumed wasn?t successful because I received no reply for a few months after the interview. By one of those horrible coincidences, the day before that BBC job offer arrived, I had posted a letter to the BBC effectively saying that at a time when I am supposed to be deciding on a career path, it would be nice if they had the courtesy of telling me one way or the other about the result of my BBC interview. The postmark on their offer letter was the day before I sent mine, the two letters crossed in the post. My somewhat bolshy letter most likely ended up carefully preserved in my personal file. Some people start as they mean to carry on, but I started even earlier than most because my first pop at BBC management was roughly three months before I even got onto the payroll. They can?t say they weren?t warned. Alan > On 10 Feb 2023, at 08:09, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: > > ?I?m still here! Re Ohms Law, I don?t recall any technical questions on my board, though there must have been some. The only question I remember was Lawrie Duley asking me why televisions were 4:3 aspect ratio! > > >> On 10 Feb 2023, at 07:33, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: >> >> Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) >> Best regards Alec >> >> Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... >> >> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, wrote: >> A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it ran off 110 volts DC. >> >> In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt that cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent me home. >> I could have sued for millions. >> >> On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? >> >> Is anybody out there other than Bernie? >> >> Peter Hider >> >> >> >> Sent from my Galaxy >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 >> Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) >> To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines >> >> Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. >> My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: >> >> At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. >> Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. >> I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! >> Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. >> Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) >> However, I was accepted into the Television Service. >> Pat >> >>> On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>>> ..... >>>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, >>>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v >>>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>>> >>>> >>> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. >>> >>> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. >>> >>> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >>> >>> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >>> >>> Caution is always necessary! >>> >>> Chris Woolf >>> >>> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > ? > Graeme Wall > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From simoncmorris at mac.com Fri Feb 10 03:33:57 2023 From: simoncmorris at mac.com (Simon Morris) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 09:33:57 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: References: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> Message-ID: <27da6e96-700c-4922-ba2d-a12860e01ce8@mac.com> Another one here ... It's been a while however ... Samsung EE iCloud On 10 Feb 2023, 07:34, at 07:34, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: >Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) >Best regards Alec > >Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... > >On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, >wrote: > >> A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the >Motion >> Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV >> Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being >American it >> ran off 110 volts DC. >> >> In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and >> plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on >the wall >> box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt >that >> cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got >to the >> surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was >that >> my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career >and >> possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent >me home. >> I could have sued for millions. >> >> On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this >forum? >> >> Is anybody out there other than Bernie? >> >> Peter Hider >> >> >> >> Sent from my Galaxy >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 >> Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) >> To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines >> >> Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's >Law. >> >> My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: >> >> At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I >> didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking >out, >> I felt that that was g?bye. >> >> Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back >in the >> Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a >chap >> from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, >and >> YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart >sank. >> >> I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with >the >> TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to >formulate >> some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were >> partially right! >> >> Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions >to me. >> >> Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, >> again!) >> >> However, I was accepted into the Television Service. >> >> Pat >> >> On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >> >> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ..... >> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can >be >> very high, >> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for >> 110/115v >> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >> >> >> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the >same >> thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms >(ish). >> But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to >100kOhms. So >> the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to >push >> the damaging current through you. >> >> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if >> flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you >would >> have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by >120V. And >> explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to >not need >> most safety regulations. >> >> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have >static >> dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually >accumulates) to >> get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before >> refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, >although >> very painful, the current flow through a person touching an >ungrounded >> aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be >lethal - >> but it could produce a burn. >> >> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >> >> Caution is always necessary! >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Tech1 mailing list >Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hughsheppard at btinternet.com Fri Feb 10 03:36:32 2023 From: hughsheppard at btinternet.com (Hugh Sheppard) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 09:36:32 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> References: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> Message-ID: 'Scuse me, Mr. Hider...? I know that 7 years in Tech. Ops. may not count for much, but I did work on 120 Z-Cars from no. 1 - as cable-basher and cameraman, and had Lord Reith in my viewfinder for his Face to Face with John Freeman, so a scrap of my record will be in the archive forever. Ouch! to your Mole story, I'd not heard that before.? I'm just one of the dozens of us with a ricked back 'tho. In my case when on a ped. as 'Barlow' rose from a chair just as I blinked. Happy days Hugh On 10/02/2023 07:25, phider via Tech1 wrote: > A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion > Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV > Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American > it ran off 110 volts DC. > > In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and > plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the > wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a > belt that? cooked me like a lobster? My temperature was about 105 F > when I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said > how lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have > ended both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of > tea and Mike Bond sent me home. > I could have sued for millions. > > On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? > > Is anybody out there other than Bernie? > > Peter Hider > > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 > Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) > To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines > > Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. > > My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: > > At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I > didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking > out, I felt that that was g?bye. > > Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in > the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a > chap from the Television Service (later identified as JohnEden-Eadon, > and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my > heart sank. > > I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with > the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to > formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. > These were partially right! > > Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. > > Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, > again!) > > However, I was accepted into the Television Service. > > Pat > > On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> ..... >>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can >>> be very high, >>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went >>> for 110/115v >>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>> >>> >> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the >> same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 >> Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm >> to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort >> of resistances to push the damaging current through you. >> >> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if >> flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you >> would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you >> by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe >> enough to not need most safety regulations. >> >> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have >> static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually >> accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need >> grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low >> enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person >> touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for >> long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >> >> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >> >> Caution is always necessary! >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Fri Feb 10 03:52:47 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 09:52:47 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Job interviews. Was Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: References: <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> Message-ID: That's hilarious Alan. Taking a pop at the bosses probably figures somewhere in most people's life story. I think I began during a divinity (religious education if you prefer) class taken by the school chaplain who was actually a thoroughly nice guy. Seated at the back and definitely guilty of not paying attention but instead being up to something else, I heard my name called. "Master Newbitt, I know what you're up to - I'm not as stupid as I look". I was unable to supress my response - "you couldn't be!" My father may have been right in saying my mouth would be the death of me. I think I may have made a pigs ear generally in my dealing with the authorities. In the late 60's, one of a number of ill thought out ventures on my part was a decision to emigrate to Australia. Went successfully through all the preliminaries, all that remained was to pay the mandatory ?10 to the Australians. My cheque bounced. Dave Newbitt. -----Original Message----- From: Alan Taylor via Tech1 Sent: Friday, February 10, 2023 9:06 AM To: tech1 Subject: Re: [Tech1] Job interviews. Was Static versus Mains When I was looking for a career, one job interview ( aeronautical engineering, not BBC ) involved me being given a drawing, a piece of stiff wire and various pliers and wire cutters. Just prior to the interview I was given ten minutes to make a wire version of the drawing, which had a 1? circle at the top, then a ?? twisted section leading to a 1? square, another twisted section below, but this time with one wire straight and the other twisted around it, leading to a 1? equilateral triangle shape. At the time I had no idea quite what they were looking for and to this day I?m still none the wiser. I assumed that they were looking for attention to detail, so I made sure that the dimensions were as similar as I could get them, that the wires were twisted in the same way as on the drawing and the cut ends of the wire were dead centre at the bottom, as in their picture. The people on that board had quite sharp minds because when they asked about my interests, they came up with impressively imaginative technical questions relating to the science behind various interests which I spoke about, but had not previously put on paper. I passed that interview, but shortly afterwards got the acceptance from the BBC which I until then I had assumed wasn?t successful because I received no reply for a few months after the interview. By one of those horrible coincidences, the day before that BBC job offer arrived, I had posted a letter to the BBC effectively saying that at a time when I am supposed to be deciding on a career path, it would be nice if they had the courtesy of telling me one way or the other about the result of my BBC interview. The postmark on their offer letter was the day before I sent mine, the two letters crossed in the post. My somewhat bolshy letter most likely ended up carefully preserved in my personal file. Some people start as they mean to carry on, but I started even earlier than most because my first pop at BBC management was roughly three months before I even got onto the payroll. They can?t say they weren?t warned. Alan > On 10 Feb 2023, at 08:09, Graeme Wall via Tech1 > wrote: > > ?I?m still here! Re Ohms Law, I don?t recall any technical questions on my > board, though there must have been some. The only question I remember was > Lawrie Duley asking me why televisions were 4:3 aspect ratio! > > >> On 10 Feb 2023, at 07:33, Alec Bray via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) >> Best regards Alec >> >> Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... >> >> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, >> wrote: >> A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion >> Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV >> Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it >> ran off 110 volts DC. >> >> In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and >> plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the >> wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt >> that cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got >> to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I >> was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my >> career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond >> sent me home. >> I could have sued for millions. >> >> On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? >> >> Is anybody out there other than Bernie? >> >> Peter Hider >> >> >> >> Sent from my Galaxy >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 >> Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) >> To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] >> Static was Tape machines >> >> Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. >> My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: >> >> At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I >> didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking >> out, I felt that that was g?bye. >> Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in >> the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a >> chap from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, >> and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart >> sank. >> I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the >> TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to >> formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These >> were partially right! >> Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to >> me. >> Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, >> again!) >> However, I was accepted into the Television Service. >> Pat >> >>> On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>>> ..... >>>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be >>>> very high, >>>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for >>>> 110/115v >>>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>>> >>>> >>> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same >>> thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms >>> (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to >>> 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of >>> resistances to push the damaging current through you. >>> >>> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if >>> flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would >>> have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. >>> And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to >>> not need most safety regulations. >>> >>> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static >>> dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) >>> to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before >>> refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, >>> although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an >>> ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to >>> be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >>> >>> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >>> >>> Caution is always necessary! >>> >>> Chris Woolf >>> >>> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > ? > Graeme Wall > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk Fri Feb 10 04:02:29 2023 From: peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk (Peter Fox) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 10:02:29 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <27da6e96-700c-4922-ba2d-a12860e01ce8@mac.com> References: <27da6e96-700c-4922-ba2d-a12860e01ce8@mac.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk Fri Feb 10 04:32:08 2023 From: peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk (Peter Fox) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 10:32:08 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C633A4C-9374-497C-94DB-380EE3034EB1@zero51.force9.co.uk> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hughsnape at talktalk.net Fri Feb 10 04:43:33 2023 From: hughsnape at talktalk.net (Hugh Snape) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 10:43:33 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <7C633A4C-9374-497C-94DB-380EE3034EB1@zero51.force9.co.uk> References: <7C633A4C-9374-497C-94DB-380EE3034EB1@zero51.force9.co.uk> Message-ID: <14DE5B95-619A-4B7E-8173-341685326033@talktalk.net> Alas, that habit persisted in another place . . . Hugh Snape > On 10 Feb 2023, at 10:32, Peter Fox via Tech1 wrote: > > Way back in the early seventies the dry humoured Tony Abbey had not long been made up to Camera Manager but still had a close relationship with Pete Ware and other stalwarts of crew 13. In one of those informal pop-in chats he said something on the lines of "That young Chris Woolf has plugged himself into the mains again rigging a monitor. That's twice this week. I am going to sack him if he does it again." > So you see, those skin resistance parameters were learnt from experience. > > > Peter Fox > > On 10 Feb 2023, at 10:03, Peter Fox wrote: > > ?Me too. Letting Alan Taylor do the heavy lifting. > > Peter Fox > > On 10 Feb 2023, at 09:34, Simon Morris via Tech1 wrote: > > ? > Another one here ... It's been a while however ... > > > > Samsung EE iCloud > On 10 Feb 2023, at 07:34, Alec Bray via Tech1 > wrote: > Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) > Best regards Alec > > Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... > > On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, < tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > wrote: > A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it ran off 110 volts DC. > > In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt that cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent me home. > I could have sued for millions. > > On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? > > Is anybody out there other than Bernie? > > Peter Hider > > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 < tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > > Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) > To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk , tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines > > Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. > > My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: > > > At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. > > Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. > > I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! > > Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. > > Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) > > However, I was accepted into the Television Service. > > Pat > > > On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> ..... >>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, >>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v >>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>> >>> >> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. >> >> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. >> >> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >> >> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >> >> Caution is always necessary! >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Fri Feb 10 05:07:11 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:07:11 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <7C633A4C-9374-497C-94DB-380EE3034EB1@zero51.force9.co.uk> References: <7C633A4C-9374-497C-94DB-380EE3034EB1@zero51.force9.co.uk> Message-ID: <00b263fb-317f-179f-dfaa-30af8a6b5b21@chriswoolf.co.uk> On 10/02/2023 10:32, Peter Fox via Tech1 wrote: > .... In one of those informal pop-in chats he said something on the > lines of "That young Chris Woolf has plugged himself into the mains > again rigging a monitor. That's twice this week. I am going to sack > him if he does it again." > So you see, those skin resistance parameters were learnt from experience. Too bl**dy true! Chris W From alawrance1 at me.com Fri Feb 10 05:27:20 2023 From: alawrance1 at me.com (Alasdair Lawrance) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:27:20 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: References: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> Message-ID: <10F0C9EB-A181-43CA-B318-A4224A220609@me.com> And another one here, Alec. As usual, camera operators being ignored.... Claim to Fame - A shot of mine changed FA rules about taking a free kick, although that was in TVR days, not Beeb. Alasdair Lawrance alawrance1 at me.com Don?t blame me, I voted Remain. > On 10 Feb 2023, at 07:33, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: > > Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) > Best regards Alec > > Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... > > On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, > wrote: > A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it ran off 110 volts DC. > > In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt that cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent me home. > I could have sued for millions. > > On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? > > Is anybody out there other than Bernie? > > Peter Hider > > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 > > Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) > To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk , tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines > > Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. > > My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: > > > At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. > > Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. > > I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! > > Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. > > Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) > > However, I was accepted into the Television Service. > > Pat > > > On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> ..... >>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, >>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v >>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>> >>> >> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. >> >> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. >> >> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >> >> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >> >> Caution is always necessary! >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jesherlock at btinternet.com Fri Feb 10 06:08:01 2023 From: jesherlock at btinternet.com (John Sherlock) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 12:08:01 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: References: <27da6e96-700c-4922-ba2d-a12860e01ce8@mac.com> Message-ID: <004d01d93d48$52ad0270$f8070750$@com> I am here, but I think that my memories of Mole tracking and swinging at TVT would not be appropriate on this forum. John Sherlock From: Tech1 [mailto:tech1-bounces at tech-ops.co.uk] On Behalf Of Peter Fox via Tech1 Sent: 10 February 2023 10:02 To: Simon Morris Cc: Tech Ops Group Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static versus Mains Me too. Letting Alan Taylor do the heavy lifting. Peter Fox On 10 Feb 2023, at 09:34, Simon Morris via Tech1 wrote: ? Another one here .. It's been a while however ... Samsung EE iCloud On 10 Feb 2023, at 07:34, Alec Bray via Tech1 > wrote: Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) Best regards Alec Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, < tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote: A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it ran off 110 volts DC. In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt that cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent me home. I could have sued for millions. On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? Is anybody out there other than Bernie? Peter Hider Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message -------- From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 < tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) However, I was accepted into the Television Service. Pat On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: ..... (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v - surely the current involved is far more lethal? Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. Caution is always necessary! Chris Woolf -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com Fri Feb 10 06:10:21 2023 From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 12:10:21 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phider at gmx.com Fri Feb 10 06:39:35 2023 From: phider at gmx.com (Peter Hider) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 13:39:35 +0100 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Fri Feb 10 08:00:35 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 14:00:35 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> References: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> Message-ID: <65da7964-2c69-3f8b-cc1b-d8cf02008329@amps.net> Seeing this comment, made me think. I didn't know the answer, but wondered if it was a throwback to the 35mm cinema film format. This following link explains things, but I think there is a misprint - to accommodate an optical sound track, the frame size would surely need to be narrower, not wider. 'Squeezed' Panavision uses cylindrical lenses to horizontally compress the wider field of view to fit the 4:3 frame of the picture negative. My 16mm film library has a couple of anamorphic prints of films I worked on, so a projection lens to unsqueeze was obtained for the projectors. (although I now use video projection - the audio is much better off BluRay!) https://www.nfi.edu/43-aspect-ratio/ It's an USA site! (Nashville Film Insitute) Cheers Pat On 10/02/2023 08:08, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: > I?m still here! Re Ohms Law, I don?t recall any technical questions on my board, though there must have been some. The only question I remember was Lawrie Duley asking me why televisions were 4:3 aspect ratio! > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Fri Feb 10 08:11:38 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 14:11:38 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines/ ohms law In-Reply-To: <78534dfe-0faf-cfc4-de9a-7fbdcfcaa931@gmail.com> References: <675A30B4-D6CE-488F-ADD7-7972C62BCB6D@talktalk.net> <7d4eff1b-5243-820f-02bf-b6e152f4907f@amps.net> <78534dfe-0faf-cfc4-de9a-7fbdcfcaa931@gmail.com> Message-ID: <839d64e8-109a-d941-a2cb-83c335da3605@amps.net> Nice one, Chris! The mnemonic I was taught, was to write V I R in a triangle (V at the top point, I & R along the base) Covering up one displays the mathematical relationship of the other two. Perhaps your encounters with mains voltages enhanced the 'capacitance' of your brain to absorb all the knowledge you have, to provide answers for this forum! Pat On 09/02/2023 16:33, Chris on GMail via Tech1 wrote: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ohms law2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68393 bytes Desc: not available URL: From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Fri Feb 10 08:30:09 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 14:30:09 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> References: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> Message-ID: <610103a9-ff7a-9340-e427-870446729b40@gmail.com> Got me wondering. With all this 'one man' crewing these days, is it always the cameraman who takes on sound, or sometimes the other way round? On 10/02/2023 07:25, phider via Tech1 wrote: > A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion > Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV > Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American > it ran off 110 volts DC. > > In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and > plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the > wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a > belt that? cooked me like a lobster? My temperature was about 105 F when > I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how > lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended > both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and > Mike Bond sent me home. > I could have sued for millions. > > On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? > > Is anybody out there other than Bernie? > > Peter Hider > > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 > Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) > To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines > > Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. > > My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: > > At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I > didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking > out, I felt that that was g?bye. > > Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in > the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a > chap from the Television Service (later identified as JohnEden-Eadon, > and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart > sank. > > I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the > TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to > formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These > were partially right! > > Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. > > Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) > > However, I was accepted into the Television Service. > > Pat > > On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> ..... >>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can >>> be very high, >>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for >>> 110/115v >>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>> >>> >> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same >> thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms >> (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to >> 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of >> resistances to push the damaging current through you. >> >> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if >> flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you >> would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by >> 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe >> enough to not need most safety regulations. >> >> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static >> dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually >> accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need >> grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low >> enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person >> touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for >> long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >> >> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >> >> Caution is always necessary! >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> > From pat.heigham at amps.net Fri Feb 10 09:01:25 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 15:01:25 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines In-Reply-To: <5189CDB2-ADE6-4CD7-86DB-2DCCD06B620F@gmail.com> References: <5189CDB2-ADE6-4CD7-86DB-2DCCD06B620F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Two stories.... Percy Guy was trying to teach us tape editing. One chap on my course couldn't be arsed, and just cut the tape, sticking the same two halves together. Percy peered at the join going through and murmured: "Yes, very good, very good indeed!" In my freelance career, I had the pleasure of working with the great Freddie Young, on a commercial. It was the first Nescafe Gold Blend of the subsequent series. He paused by the sound table and enquired who was the boom operator. Me! Asked me my name and said: ?I?m Freddie, and you won?t have any problems?. Standing in the artistes? position, I took a look ? perfectly textbook standard 3-point lighting ? key, fill, backlight. At Wood Norton, learning portrait lighting, my subject was Nigerian, I came to appreciate that the contrast ratios were different between white and colour skin. We asked him from where he came. He worked for the Nigerian Broadcasting Company. What as? "I'm the Head of it!" They were about to launch a television service, so thought to come to the BBC to find out how to do it. We booked our places with him, in case we failed in the Tech Ops dept. I suspect that the BBC preferred to engage people with enough technical interest and malleable to be trained in 'their' way - with not too many preconceived notions. My father was Army and always said there were three ways of doing something: the right way, the wrong way and the military way. This could be applied to the Corporation. Pat On 09/02/2023 18:33, Geoffrey Hawkes wrote: > John, John was on my recruitment board too. On my application form I?d > given tape-recording as one of my hobby interests he quizzed me as to > what deck I had and how it worked. Fortunately I?d read Percy Guy?s > book ?How to get the best from your tape recorder? so was able to > acquit myself quite adequately,Portrait Lighting using four lights. I > got three out of four, ie a key light (and yes, I actually knew the > name) a fill light and a background light, but not the rim light. I?m > sure some of you would?ve scored full marks on that from what?s bee > said on here recently. However well or poorly we may have felt we did > as we crept from the interview room at The Langham at that time, the > fact that we are here testifies to our sufficient success in becoming > Aunties trusted servants, for which we are truly grateful, > > Geoff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vernon.dyer at btinternet.com Fri Feb 10 10:09:31 2023 From: vernon.dyer at btinternet.com (vernon.dyer) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 16:09:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains In-Reply-To: <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> References: <1MWici-1p6TJU3u2q-00X18t@mail.gmx.net> <9D7B1869-2E08-4A7E-86F4-AEE3FAA37D7A@icloud.com> Message-ID: <4cdbf57f.23df.1863c16c860.Webtop.122@btinternet.com> I'm here too, and also remember getting in a tangle with Ohm's Law at my board. Got taken on all the same, perhaps they never got enough people who could get it right! As a side issue to Mole power, I recall driving a Vinten Heron (415v 3-phase AC) over its power cable, which was quite spectacular - and I think it was fireworks night! On the subject of static from control room carpet, wasn't it Richard Pigg (VM extraordinaire) who held a fluorescent tube by one end, walked around for a bit and touched the other end against a monitor screen? The tube lit up quite nicely! Best wishes ..... Vern ------ Original Message ------ From: "Graeme Wall via Tech1" To: "Alec Bray" Cc: "Tech ops" Sent: Friday, 10 Feb, 23 At 08:08 Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static versus Mains I?m still here! Re Ohms Law, I don?t recall any technical questions on my board, though there must have been some. The only question I remember was Lawrie Duley asking me why televisions were 4:3 aspect ratio! On 10 Feb 2023, at 07:33, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: Where have all the cameramen gone - one here (although not very long) Best regards Alec Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, 07:26 phider via Tech1, wrote: A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American it ran off 110 volts DC. In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a belt that cooked me like a lobster My temperature was about 105 F when I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and Mike Bond sent me home. I could have sued for millions. On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? Is anybody out there other than Bernie? Peter Hider Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message -------- From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking out, I felt that that was g?bye. Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a chap from the Television Service (later identified as John Eden-Eadon, and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart sank. I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These were partially right! Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) However, I was accepted into the Television Service. Pat On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: ..... (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can be very high, but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for 110/115v - surely the current involved is far more lethal? Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of resistances to push the damaging current through you. A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe enough to not need most safety regulations. Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. Caution is always necessary! Chris Woolf -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From doug at puddifoot.me Sat Feb 11 04:00:01 2023 From: doug at puddifoot.me (Doug Puddifoot) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 10:00:01 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Static versus Mains Message-ID: Sill here also. When I was in news two of my sound men became cameramen, and there were quite a few others transferred. Doug On 10 February 2023, at 14:30, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: Got me wondering. With all this 'one man' crewing these days, is it always the cameraman who takes on sound, or sometimes the other way round? On 10/02/2023 07:25, phider via Tech1 wrote: > A bit more than static. The Mole camera crane, developed by the Motion > Picture Research Council in the US, was the mainstay of all TVC, TV > Theatre, Riverside and Lime Grove studios drama and LE. Being American > it ran off 110 volts DC. > > In the '60s I was rigging for a drama in Studio E at Lime Grove and > plugged the Mole power cable into the very large 110v DC outlet on the > wall box. Little did I know that the whole box was live and I took a > belt that? cooked me like a lobster? My temperature was about 105 F when > I got to the surgery on the ground floor. The Sister on duty said how > lucky I was that my heart was on the downbeat or it would have ended > both my career and possibly my life. I had a lay down, a cup of tea and > Mike Bond sent me home. > I could have sued for millions. > > On a different tack, where have all the cameramen gone from this forum? > > Is anybody out there other than Bernie? > > Peter Hider > > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 > Date: 09/02/2023 15:17 (GMT+00:00) > To: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk, tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > Subject: Re: [Tech1] Static was Tape machines > > Chris - thanks to you & Dave. I always got in a pickle with Ohm's Law. > > My intial interviews with the BBC were not covered with glory: > > At the Langham, I came across a BBC Engineer, who proved to me that I > didn?t know Ohm?s Law (Yes, I did ? but he tied me in knots). Walking > out, I felt that that was g?bye. > > Six weeks later, I was invited for a selection board. Blow me! Back in > the Langham. The Board consisted of three people ? a daddy chairman, a > chap from the Television Service (later identified as JohnEden-Eadon, > and YES! Esler! who was my b?te noir at the earlier interview ? my heart > sank. > > I was asked several questions about the sync pulses transmitted with the > TV signal, and not actually knowing the answer, used my Latin to > formulate some sort of reply that I thought might be intelligent. These > were partially right! > > Esler was then asked by the Chairman if he wished to pose questions to me. > > Esler: ? I think that Mr. Heigham and I know where we stand? (G'bye, again!) > > However, I was accepted into the Television Service. > > Pat > > On 09/02/2023 13:05, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >> On 09/02/2023 12:34, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> ..... >>> (need Chris Woolf, here) I believe that measured static voltage can >>> be very high, >>> but it's the current that kills you. Never understood why US went for >>> 110/115v >>> - surely the current involved is far more lethal? >>> >>> >> Well you can't divorce voltage and current - they are part of the same >> thing. The human body has a resistance in the range of 300-1000 Ohms >> (ish). But dry skin can have a resistance of anything from 1kOhm to >> 100kOhms. So the voltage of the shock has to overcome these sort of >> resistances to push the damaging current through you. >> >> A painful current is >10mA - a lethal one is >100mA (particularly if >> flowing for more than 10s of mS). Ohms Law will tell you that you >> would have to be unlucky to get a lethal current pushed through you by >> 120V. And explains why the EU reckons that <50V is considered safe >> enough to not need most safety regulations. >> >> Aircraft can charge up to 100-200kV quite easily, but also have static >> dischargers on wing and tail tips (where the charge usually >> accumulates) to get rid of as much as possible. However they do need >> grounding before refuelling. With luck the charge density will be low >> enough that, although very painful, the current flow through a person >> touching an ungrounded aircraft is unlikely to get a high current for >> long enough to be lethal - but it could produce a burn. >> >> A Taser can deliver 50kV, but should control the current to <10mA. >> >> Caution is always necessary! >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> > -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From tuckergarth at me.com Sat Feb 11 06:15:34 2023 From: tuckergarth at me.com (Garth Tucker) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 12:15:34 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Cameramen Message-ID: Just to say I am still about and corresponding with Geoff Dudley and Tony Poole. Garth From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Sat Feb 11 06:58:05 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 12:58:05 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Chatbots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's a lot of interest in chatbots currently, with the hope that they will somehow use AI to answer questions and fill in areas of knowledge. Nice idea but... I tried the Microsoft version this morning on a few subjects, and it is pretty flaky. You can tell that it takes the sort-of average of all the info it can easily glean on a subject and regurgitates it. The trouble with that is that you get a bit of a lowest common denominator response. With easy stuff it isn't too far off the mark, but never gives you any useful insights because it never "touches the margins". With difficult subjects it seems to be plain wrong much of the time, since it doesn't have a way of filtering out general misunderstandings. A bit like self-driving cars - you might think it could be quite close, but in actual fact it is a country mile away. Chris Woolf From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 07:22:57 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 13:22:57 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Chatbots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I expect it will do as Google etc does. Give the answers it is paid the most to give. On 11/02/2023 12:58, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: > There's a lot of interest in chatbots currently, with the hope that they > will somehow use AI to answer questions and fill in areas of knowledge. > > Nice idea but... > > I tried the Microsoft version this morning on a few subjects, and it is > pretty flaky. You can tell that it takes the sort-of average of all the > info it can easily glean on a subject and regurgitates it. The trouble > with that is that you get a bit of a lowest common denominator response. > With easy stuff it isn't too far off the mark, but never gives you any > useful insights because it never "touches the margins". With difficult > subjects it seems to be plain wrong much of the time, since it doesn't > have a way of filtering out general misunderstandings. > > A bit like self-driving cars - you might think it could be quite close, > but in actual fact it is a country mile away. > > Chris Woolf > > From mikej at bmanor.co.uk Sat Feb 11 07:47:52 2023 From: mikej at bmanor.co.uk (Mike Jordan) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 13:47:52 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Chatbots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't understand anything about catbox but Dave' comment about the money made ties in with this in Guardian today. Presumably some people actually follow the links to adverts which is why advertisers spend money - I certainly dont! On a par with recording commercial TV channels and watching about 10minutes in so one can fast-forward through the ad breaks to get down to the about 43mins of actual material per hour - with of course "stealing" a few minutes of ads from the next hour so they apear in amore popular programme with hopefully more viewers. Mike -------------------------------------------- Google?s $160bn black hole The telescope gaffe that threw AI search race wide open ?Everything it says is essentially a rehash of something that has been said before, by a human? Dr Andrew Rogoyski The James Webb space telescope cost $10bn (?8bn) to build, but it left Google nursing losses of more than $160bn after the search engine?s new chatbot answered a question about it incorrectly. Google and Microsoft announced plans for AI-enhanced search this week, taking the artificial intelligence space race into a new phase. However, the launch of the former?s new chatbot, Bard, misfired badly when the error appeared in a demo. The competitor to the Microsoftbacked ChatGPT was asked about the telescope and one of the answers displayed said it ?took the very first pictures of a planet outside of our own solar system?. It didn?t, and experts were quick to note the inaccuracy ? as were investors. Shares in Alphabet, Google?s parent, lost $163bn in value over Wednesday and Thursday. The company remains a $1tn-plus behemoth, in large part because of its dominance in search. But for how long? Snapping at its heels is Microsoft, which announced on Tuesday that it was using the technology behind ChatGPT, developed by the San Francisco-based company OpenAI, to enhance its Bing search engine and Edge web browser. The company, which announced a multibillion-dollar investment in OpenAI last month, said the technology, based on a more powerful version of ChatGPT, would help users refine queries more easily, give more relevant, up-to-date results and make shopping easier. It said the newlook Bing would be publicly available in several weeks? time, and users can also join a waiting list for early access. Google knew it had to respond following the OpenAI deal and the runaway success of ChatGPT. It said on Monday that Bard was undergoing specialist testing and would be made more widely available to the public in the coming weeks. Sundar Pichai, Google?s CEO, said the technology behind Bard would soon be integrated into its search engine. But it was the telescope response that got the most attention, combined with an underwhelming presentation on Google?s latest AI-powered search plans in Paris on Wednesday. Dan Ives, an analyst at US financial services firm Wedbush Securities, said the week had been a ?massive success story? for Microsoft?s CEO, Satya Nadella, but that Google?s Paris event and Bard stumble had left the company with ?more questions than answers?. However, he added: ?While initially it feels like Google rushed Bard to market with the Microsoft ChatGPT deal and event overshadowing the company, this race will be a long one.? Microsoft is also unlikely to emerge unscathed from James Webb-type mistakes, experts said. Indeed, ChatGPT users have encountered inaccuracies while using the chatbot. Experts have warned that large language models, which are the basis for Bard and ChatGPT, are prone to errors because of the way they are built. These models are fed datasets comprising billions of words that train the AI to generate plausible-sounding responses to queries. Operating in a way akin to predictive text, they build a statistical model to predict the likeliest word or sentence to come after the user?s prompt. ?ChatGPT is a phrase predictor,? said Dr Andrew Rogoyski of the Institute for People-Centred AI at the University of Surrey. ?It?s a system that has memorised a billion books so that it can guess what comes after the question you ask it. Everything it says is essentially a rehash of something that has been said before, by a human. It?s not remotely intelligent. There are much smarter, and more useful, AI systems operating robots, diagnosing disease, steering a car.? However, the phenomenal interest in ChatGPT, which signed up more than 100 million users in two months, shows considerable public appetite for an AI-enhanced search experience. Fans of the chatbot have praised its ability to summarise documents, tidy up prose and write code. If public interest in chatbotenhanced search, as shown by the success of ChatGPT, is maintained then Microsoft has a big target to aim at. Google dominates the global search market with a share of 91%, according to the internet data firm SimilarWeb, with Bing at 3%. According to Microsoft, every percentage point gained in market share ? presumably from Google ? represents an extra $2bn in advertising revenue for the company. There is a big gap to bridge between Google and Microsoft: in its most recent quarterly results Microsoft posted revenues of $3.2bn from search and news advertising while Google generated $42.6bn in search revenues. Chatbots also require a lot of processing power, so there are cost implications for any AI-powered market grab too. Mark Riedl, a professor at the Georgia Institute of Technology, said: ?I do not believe the new version of Bing leveraging large language model technology will turn out to be a serious threat to Google?s search business.? -----Original Message----- From: Dave Plowman via Tech1 Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2023 1:22 PM To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Chatbots I expect it will do as Google etc does. Give the answers it is paid the most to give. From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Sat Feb 11 11:00:48 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 17:00:48 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Chatbots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sadly, the AI chatbot approach doesn't seem to be as basic as that - it is a lot more complicated and venal. The aim is probably to give (theoretically) improved FAQ replies for companies that don't want to employ people. And, as has already happened, to provide students and employees with ready-made essays, reports and other text matter, that doesn't require them to understand anything. Some of this could be directly chargeable but a lot is simply to put the companies in a position of enormous power. It could become very difficult to challenge something that the chatbot tells the world is right, even when it is patently wrong for those that know the truth. We've seen the sort of power someone like Elon Musk aims to hold - Google, Microsoft /et a//l/ want to do the same. As an example, one can ask about something like balanced lines - a subject that was even incorrectly defined by the BBC at Wood Norton. Asking the question three times with helpful prompts in the right direction never elicits the correct answer - just something that uses good buzz words, and echoes the sort of techno-drivel that /could/ feel right. You can do the same with 405 line TV, which should give a large credit to Alan Blumlein, but incorrectly hands it to Baird, who could only manage 240 lines. The answer conflates several part-truths, but sounds plausible enough to mislead the unquestioning masses. Chris Woolf On 11/02/2023 13:47, Mike Jordan via Tech1 wrote: > I don't understand anything about catbox but Dave' comment about the > money made ties in with this in Guardian today. Presumably some people > actually follow the links to adverts which is why advertisers spend > money - I certainly dont! > On a par with recording commercial TV channels and watching about > 10minutes in so one can fast-forward through the ad breaks to get down > to the about 43mins of actual material per hour - with of course > "stealing" a few minutes of ads from the next hour so they apear in > amore popular programme with hopefully more viewers. > > Mike > > -------------------------------------------- > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 07nCnYtfw2z7XJIg.png Type: image/png Size: 80236 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alanaudio at me.com Sat Feb 11 13:23:09 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 19:23:09 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] E4 Wicker Man channel ident Message-ID: <28488CB5-24FD-42D5-8A58-4A04FCEA24EE@me.com> I noticed something odd with one of the channel Idents on E4 and it happens every time that ident is screened. It appears to have been cropped top and bottom to a wider aspect ratio than a normal TV screen. All the other idents fill the screen in the usual way and besides, it wouldn?t make sense to shoot an Ident in a different aspect ratio to your transmission standard. I?ve attached a still frame from a web site of channel idents so that you can see which one it is. There is part of a sort of rainbow striped slug/caterpillar shape at the bottom right of frame. The best theory I can come up with is that there was some sort of problem visible in the bottom of the frame and they have crudely obscured it, hoping that nobody would notice. Does anybody know what really happened and why they did this? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 772821 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Alan From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 07:46:26 2023 From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 13:46:26 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life Message-ID: Hi, Sunday morning. 07:30. Local ATM. Tries to insert my card. Blocked entry. Then I started to hear voices. "Can't do it...no...no". Then more voices - " It?s so dark in here, I can't see what I'm doing..." ATMs have never spoken to me like that before... I turned and left. Entered the shop on whose wall the ATM mounted. There in the corner, in a dark cupboard, an engineer was talking to control on the phone. He then announced to the shop assistant that the ATM was kaput (his words). Monday evening. 19:00. Premier Hotel Southport (visiting grandsons). Leaving hotel. Engineer has the door open control in pieces on the floor (and a van outsids). Across the car park to the Vue cinema: "Avatar the Way if Water" showing in screen 5 at 19:10. Sit down. 19:10 blank screen. 19:15 still blank screen. 19:20 still blank screen. Then a girl from the front desk appears IN PERSON and apologises for the delay saying that the projectionist or the projector had gone AWOL and that the manager was trying to sort it. As a result , so that there wouldn't be too late a finish, the show would go straight to the main feature and there would be no adverts or trailers. "RESULT" said Jane - she hates the cinema because of the adverts and trailers... Around 19:30 there was a flash on the screen and what looked a bit like a mangled colour bar across about 1/8th of screen then blank. Suddenly at 19:35 appeared the certificate from the British Board of Film Censors (or ??) And we were away for a three thrilling hours on Pandora.... Well, James Cameron knows how to sink a ship.... Best regards Alec sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Tue Feb 14 08:52:08 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 14:52:08 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, Dear! Alec, I run film shows for some good friends, as their extended dining room is ideal. Off Video (Bluray) and try to make a good presentation. Maybe a Tom & Jerry off a second machine. When I worked with 16mm, would splice the cartoon onto the first spool of the feature. Staying with friends near Tavistock, went to a film at the Quarry. It was poorly set up. The projector wasn't even properly aimed at the screen! (and they charge money for it!) A show at the Arts Centre was a bit better, run off a pancake feed, so one had the ability to see the credits, except for the audience getting in the way and interrupting the projection beam. I ran evening film shows at my Tech College, there was a dedicated projection room with twin 16mm projectors, I was allowed to take one home to show films to my friends - some foreign features had subtitles but as the hall seating wasn't raked, made it hard for the back row to read them. So, persuaded the college principal to let me remount the screen higher up in front of the proscenium arch. He must have been a bit impressed with me, as a testimonial got me accepted into the BBC, before they saw my (dire) 'A' level results! Attached are a couple of pics of an outdoor set up and my friend's dining room. The latter shows the 6 ft screen, but for Fiddler on the Roof and a Cinerama release, I managed to squeeze in the 9ft one. Cheers Pat 14/02/2023 13:46, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: > > Across the car park to the Vue cinema: "Avatar the Way if Water" > showing in screen 5 at 19:10.? Sit down. 19:10 blank screen.? 19:15 > still blank screen. 19:20 still blank screen.? Then a girl from the > front desk appears IN PERSON? and apologises for the delay saying that > the projectionist or the projector had gone AWOL? and that the manager > was trying to sort it.? As a result , so that there wouldn't be too > late a finish, the show would go straight to the main feature and > there would be no adverts or trailers. "RESULT" said Jane - she hates > the cinema because of the adverts and trailers... > > Around 19:30 there was a flash on the screen and what looked a bit > like a mangled colour bar across about 1/8th of screen then blank. > Suddenly at 19:35 appeared the certificate from the British? Board of > Film Censors (or ??) And we were away for a three thrilling hours on > Pandora.... > > Well, James Cameron knows how to sink a ship.... > > Best regards Alec > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Oak Lea Odeon 2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1793656 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Field House Cinema 2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 923539 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Field House Cinema 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 869666 bytes Desc: not available URL: From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 08:58:25 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 14:58:25 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Help lines. Message-ID: About a month ago, my phone decided to stop making contactless payments. A pain, as I now need to carry my card too. On checking the setup of the Barclays App, on going to contactless payments I get the message "unfortunately you can't make contactless mobile payments with this device" Thinking it might be a problem with the sensor or whatever, I try the old phone - only to get the same message. So decided it must be a problem with the Barclay App. Look thought 'help' and of course no mention of this fault, so phone the number they say to use on the error message. And after three tries, hanging on for ages, give up. So decide to try chat. And of course all the advice given there is the same as the help pages. So eventually, they decide to pass it on to an 'expert' and give me a reference number. And say it will take 5 working days. Which took us to last Friday. Go back to chat today and ask for the results. And am told it's only just more than 5 working days, so to try again later. From pat.heigham at amps.net Tue Feb 14 09:09:44 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 15:09:44 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Help lines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, and isn't it irritating that your one category of query is never listed! Perhaps there is a team of 'experts' who think up what possible answers we are NOT going to give! Pat (currently pissed off with Thunderbird which has a habit of 'losing' a message which has had time spent on composing. Where's it effing gorn?) From peter.neill at icloud.com Tue Feb 14 09:18:35 2023 From: peter.neill at icloud.com (Peter Neill) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 15:18:35 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Help lines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65D521D5-9720-4077-B89C-53D1B49BA90E@icloud.com> Not a helpline problem but when in France last Autumn the battery on my Apple Watch died in that it started bulging and forced the screen off the body of the watch. Had battery replaced but touch element of the screen didn?t work so could not enter password. It?s an old watch but, reluctantly had screen replaced. Now contactless payments don?t work. Mr Google suggests that this sometimes happens and the answer is to remove a chip from the screen and replace it with equivalent chip from old one. I think the tip of my soldering iron is bigger than said chip. So I thought I?d find a second hand watch on eBay. Found a suitable one at a reasonable price and was just about to click ?Buy now? when I spotted ?This is an old watch so the battery will probably need to be replaced soon?. So I?m now saving for a new watch and paying with my phone. Until that stops working! Peter Neill Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for typos and autocorruptions. > On 14 Feb 2023, at 14:58, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: > > ?About a month ago, my phone decided to stop making contactless payments. A pain, as I now need to carry my card too. > > On checking the setup of the Barclays App, on going to contactless payments I get the message "unfortunately you can't make contactless mobile payments with this device" > > Thinking it might be a problem with the sensor or whatever, I try the old phone - only to get the same message. > > So decided it must be a problem with the Barclay App. > > Look thought 'help' and of course no mention of this fault, so phone the number they say to use on the error message. And after three tries, hanging on for ages, give up. > > So decide to try chat. And of course all the advice given there is the same as the help pages. So eventually, they decide to pass it on to an 'expert' and give me a reference number. And say it will take 5 working days. Which took us to last Friday. > > Go back to chat today and ask for the results. And am told it's only just more than 5 working days, so to try again later. > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From pat.heigham at amps.net Tue Feb 14 09:20:10 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 15:20:10 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Help lines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14d9d7d2-100c-1309-d63d-2fdbb6637404@amps.net> Maybe we should revert to? the message in a cleft stick, delivered by runner! Or Pony Express: (Office clerk): "Howdy, Mister, got a letter for you - looks like it was sent one month ago. Hope you littl lady still waitin' for you" And who is not pissed off with endless menu choices? If you don't have limitless calls, it's a system to boost revenue for the phone companies. Pat On 14/02/2023 14:58, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote: > About a month ago, my phone decided to stop making contactless > payments. A pain, as I now need to carry my card too. > > On checking the setup of the Barclays App, on going to contactless > payments I get the message? "unfortunately you can't make contactless > mobile payments with this device" > > Thinking it might be a problem with the sensor or whatever, I try the > old phone - only to get the same message. > > So decided it must be a problem with the Barclay App. > > Look thought 'help' and of course no mention of this fault, so phone > the number they say to use on the error message. And after three > tries, hanging on for ages, give up. > > So decide to try chat. And of course all the advice given there is the > same as the help pages. So eventually, they decide to pass it on to an > 'expert' and give me a reference number. And say it will take 5 > working days. Which took us to last Friday. > > Go back to chat today and ask for the results. And am told it's only > just more than 5 working days, so to try again later. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waresound at msn.com Tue Feb 14 11:39:34 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 17:39:34 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Help lines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Last October 19th we got online with Box Broadband fibre to the house with 100MBps up and down. For only a little more we could have had 1Gbps symmetrical. Our long-standing TalkTalk account was via ancient copper, with a pathetic best of 13Mbps down and 2Mbps upload. TalkTalk could not offer fibre despite the account being sold as ?Faster fibre?. I went to their website on 19/10/22 and found plenty of chatBOT options to upgrade, or to move my account if moving house, etc., but nothing about leaving them. After deliberately typing in garbage responses, I got dumped out to an ?agent? who would call back on my mobile. A barely intelligible voice, who when asked admitted to being in Mumbai, did call and was obviously a customer retention agent. That call lasted 43 excruciatingly frustrating minutes, and ended with the agent saying that the account would be closed on November 14th and that there would be nothing more to pay because my Oct 17th direct debit was for the following month in advance. And no termination penalty as they had failed to renew my contract after the year ending November 7th 2020. I put the phone down thinking that would be the end of it, and (fortunately) cancelled any further direct debit payments and disconnected the landline phone and modem. But that was just the beginning! Since then there have so far been 36 emails, numerous demands for ?missed? payments, and various letters via the post. All of the emails come from ?no-reply at ..? addresses, and all of them contain ?contact us on..? phone numbers. Those numbers are different on each occasion, and all of them go to chatBOTs that take you round and round in circles. My request for a transcript of the original 43 minute call, which was recorded ?for training purposes?, has been repeatedly ignored. I?m now getting demands for missed December, January, February and (in a couple of days) March payments of ?34 each, plus mounting monthly ?12.50 late payment penalties. And all because the ONE thing you can?t do with TalkTalk is ?.TALK to them! Apparently their business is based somewhere in Africa. I?m very much looking forward to them taking me to Court over it all as they?re threatening! Box Broadband, on the other hand, have been as good as Gold, and I can pop into their local offices here in Cranleigh and talk face-to-face if I need to. When II told them about the TalkTalk saga, they just laughed and said: ?oh, well good luck with that. Just ignore the (my new favourite word) twunts!? There, I feel better already!: Cheers, Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > On 14 Feb 2023, at 15:10, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Yes, and isn't it irritating that your one category of query is never listed! > > Perhaps there is a team of 'experts' who think up what possible answers we are NOT going to give! > > Pat > > (currently pissed off with Thunderbird which has a habit of 'losing' a message which has had time > spent on composing. Where's it effing gorn?) > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From mibridge at mac.com Tue Feb 14 11:52:57 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 17:52:57 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In response to Alec?s cinema story sans ads, we once went to Dorking Halls to see The Woman in Black. The usherettes waiting outside the door were delighted to see us, because no-one else had turned up and in the event of a no-show, they would be sent home without being paid for the full evening as they were on zero-hours contracts. Having settled ourselves, we were offered coffee, in proper mugs as one of the girls was going to make a cup for herself! We were still the only ones in the auditorium as the nominal performance time arrived, so I jokingly said to the lady with the coffee that they might as well skip the adverts as they wouldn?t influence us, but she immediately said that she would speak to the projectionist and, sure enough, the first thing we got were the trailers, followed immediately by the feature. And to match Pat?s qualification tale, I was told at my initial BBC interview that it was only necessary to have completed a maths or physics A level course ~ a pass was not required! I wasn't doing maths, but I did get my physics. Mike G > On 14 Feb 2023, at 14:52, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > Oh, Dear! Alec, > > I run film shows for some good friends, as their extended dining room is ideal. > > Off Video (Bluray) and try to make a good presentation. Maybe a Tom & Jerry off a second machine. > When I worked with 16mm, would splice the cartoon onto the first spool of the feature. > > Staying with friends near Tavistock, went to a film at the Quarry. It was poorly set up. > The projector wasn't even properly aimed at the screen! (and they charge money for it!) > > A show at the Arts Centre was a bit better, run off a pancake feed, so one had the ability > to see the credits, except for the audience getting in the way and interrupting the projection beam. > > I ran evening film shows at my Tech College, there was a dedicated projection room with > twin 16mm projectors, I was allowed to take one home to show films to my friends > - some foreign features had subtitles but as the hall seating wasn't raked, > made it hard for the back row to read them. So, persuaded the college > principal to let me remount the screen higher up in front of the proscenium arch. > > He must have been a bit impressed with me, as a testimonial got me accepted into the > BBC, before they saw my (dire) 'A' level results! > > Attached are a couple of pics of an outdoor set up and my friend's dining room. > The latter shows the 6 ft screen, but for Fiddler on the Roof and a Cinerama release, > I managed to squeeze in the 9ft one. > > Cheers > > Pat > > > > 14/02/2023 13:46, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: > >> >> Across the car park to the Vue cinema: "Avatar the Way if Water" showing in screen 5 at 19:10. Sit down. 19:10 blank screen. 19:15 still blank screen. 19:20 still blank screen. Then a girl from the front desk appears IN PERSON and apologises for the delay saying that the projectionist or the projector had gone AWOL and that the manager was trying to sort it. As a result , so that there wouldn't be too late a finish, the show would go straight to the main feature and there would be no adverts or trailers. "RESULT" said Jane - she hates the cinema because of the adverts and trailers... >> >> Around 19:30 there was a flash on the screen and what looked a bit like a mangled colour bar across about 1/8th of screen then blank. Suddenly at 19:35 appeared the certificate from the British Board of Film Censors (or ??) And we were away for a three thrilling hours on Pandora.... >> >> Well, James Cameron knows how to sink a ship.... >> >> Best regards Alec >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hughsnape at talktalk.net Tue Feb 14 11:54:09 2023 From: hughsnape at talktalk.net (Hugh Snape) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 17:54:09 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Help lines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A82A415-BC5D-4564-9365-92D06D941FA7@talktalk.net> These days if I get into a sticky patch like yours with TalkTalk I?m inclined to contact the organisation?s press office or post on Twitter making sure the Tweet includes @TalkTalk or whatever. The latter certainly worked with the unreachable Openreach the other day; a very quick response. NB, I?m also a TalkTalk customer, they can be very frustrating to deal with if there?s a problem but I dread having to change my email address as I?ve been with them for such a long time. Asking to ?raise a complaint? however will get you a call from one of the managers at the call centre and things then to get resolved more quickly. Best, Hugh Snape > On 14 Feb 2023, at 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: > > Last October 19th we got online with Box Broadband fibre to the house with 100MBps up and down. For only a little more we could have had 1Gbps symmetrical. Our long-standing TalkTalk account was via ancient copper, with a pathetic best of 13Mbps down and 2Mbps upload. TalkTalk could not offer fibre despite the account being sold as ?Faster fibre?. > I went to their website on 19/10/22 and found plenty of chatBOT options to upgrade, or to move my account if moving house, etc., but nothing about leaving them. After deliberately typing in garbage responses, I got dumped out to an ?agent? who would call back on my mobile. A barely intelligible voice, who when asked admitted to being in Mumbai, did call and was obviously a customer retention agent. That call lasted 43 excruciatingly frustrating minutes, and ended with the agent saying that the account would be closed on November 14th and that there would be nothing more to pay because my Oct 17th direct debit was for the following month in advance. And no termination penalty as they had failed to renew my contract after the year ending November 7th 2020. > I put the phone down thinking that would be the end of it, and (fortunately) cancelled any further direct debit payments and disconnected the landline phone and modem. > > But that was just the beginning! Since then there have so far been 36 emails, numerous demands for ?missed? payments, and various letters via the post. All of the emails come from ?no-reply at ..? addresses, and all of them contain ?contact us on..? phone numbers. Those numbers are different on each occasion, and all of them go to chatBOTs that take you round and round in circles. My request for a transcript of the original 43 minute call, which was recorded ?for training purposes?, has been repeatedly ignored. > I?m now getting demands for missed December, January, February and (in a couple of days) March payments of ?34 each, plus mounting monthly ?12.50 late payment penalties. > And all because the ONE thing you can?t do with TalkTalk is ?.TALK to them! Apparently their business is based somewhere in Africa. > I?m very much looking forward to them taking me to Court over it all as they?re threatening! > > Box Broadband, on the other hand, have been as good as Gold, and I can pop into their local offices here in Cranleigh and talk face-to-face if I need to. When II told them about the TalkTalk saga, they just laughed and said: ?oh, well good luck with that. Just ignore the (my new favourite word) twunts!? > > There, I feel better already!: > Cheers, > Nick. > > Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > >> On 14 Feb 2023, at 15:10, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ?Yes, and isn't it irritating that your one category of query is never listed! >> >> Perhaps there is a team of 'experts' who think up what possible answers we are NOT going to give! >> >> Pat >> >> (currently pissed off with Thunderbird which has a habit of 'losing' a message which has had time >> spent on composing. Where's it effing gorn?) >> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From pat.heigham at amps.net Tue Feb 14 13:12:09 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 19:12:09 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brilliant, Mike. The only time I saw a film at Dorking Halls, I was appalled at the audio reproduction. The audtorium? was not acoustically treated, and was very reverberant. Never gorn back! Pat Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: > In response to Alec?s cinema story sans ads, we once went to Dorking > Halls to see The Woman in Black. The usherettes waiting outside the > door were delighted to see us, because no-one else had turned up and > in the event of a no-show, they would be sent home without being paid > for the full evening as they were on zero-hours contracts. Having > settled ourselves, we were offered coffee, in proper mugs as one of > the girls was going to make a cup for herself! We were still the only > ones in the auditorium as the nominal performance time arrived, so I > jokingly said to the lady with the coffee that they might as well skip > the adverts as they wouldn?t influence us, but she immediately said > that she would speak to the projectionist and, sure enough, the first > thing we got were the trailers, followed immediately by the feature. > > > And to match Pat?s qualification tale, I was told at my initial BBC > interview that it was only necessary to have /completed/?a maths or > physics A level course ~ a pass was not required! I?wasn't doing > maths, but I did get my physics. > > Mike G -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mibridge at mac.com Tue Feb 14 13:23:17 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 19:23:17 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can?t say we normally have an issue, except that it?s sometimes louder than necessary, but apparently they are not allowed to tweak after it?s been set up. Mike G > On 14 Feb 2023, at 19:12, Pat Heigham wrote: > > Brilliant, Mike. > > The only time I saw a film at Dorking Halls, I was appalled at the audio reproduction. > The audtorium was not acoustically treated, and was very reverberant. > > Never gorn back! > > Pat > > Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: > >> In response to Alec?s cinema story sans ads, we once went to Dorking Halls to see The Woman in Black. The usherettes waiting outside the door were delighted to see us, because no-one else had turned up and in the event of a no-show, they would be sent home without being paid for the full evening as they were on zero-hours contracts. Having settled ourselves, we were offered coffee, in proper mugs as one of the girls was going to make a cup for herself! We were still the only ones in the auditorium as the nominal performance time arrived, so I jokingly said to the lady with the coffee that they might as well skip the adverts as they wouldn?t influence us, but she immediately said that she would speak to the projectionist and, sure enough, the first thing we got were the trailers, followed immediately by the feature. >> >> >> And to match Pat?s qualification tale, I was told at my initial BBC interview that it was only necessary to have completed a maths or physics A level course ~ a pass was not required! I wasn't doing maths, but I did get my physics. >> >> Mike G -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk Tue Feb 14 13:34:07 2023 From: peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk (Peter Fox) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 19:34:07 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Help lines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Handily, the corollary of your new favourite word could be used anywhere. And indeed it is. Peter Fox On 14 Feb 2023, at 17:40, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: ?Last October 19th we got online with Box Broadband fibre to the house with 100MBps up and down. For only a little more we could have had 1Gbps symmetrical. Our long-standing TalkTalk account was via ancient copper, with a pathetic best of 13Mbps down and 2Mbps upload. TalkTalk could not offer fibre despite the account being sold as ?Faster fibre?. I went to their website on 19/10/22 and found plenty of chatBOT options to upgrade, or to move my account if moving house, etc., but nothing about leaving them. After deliberately typing in garbage responses, I got dumped out to an ?agent? who would call back on my mobile. A barely intelligible voice, who when asked admitted to being in Mumbai, did call and was obviously a customer retention agent. That call lasted 43 excruciatingly frustrating minutes, and ended with the agent saying that the account would be closed on November 14th and that there would be nothing more to pay because my Oct 17th direct debit was for the following month in advance. And no termination penalty as they had failed to renew my contract after the year ending November 7th 2020. I put the phone down thinking that would be the end of it, and (fortunately) cancelled any further direct debit payments and disconnected the landline phone and modem. But that was just the beginning! Since then there have so far been 36 emails, numerous demands for ?missed? payments, and various letters via the post. All of the emails come from ?no-reply at ..? addresses, and all of them contain ?contact us on..? phone numbers. Those numbers are different on each occasion, and all of them go to chatBOTs that take you round and round in circles. My request for a transcript of the original 43 minute call, which was recorded ?for training purposes?, has been repeatedly ignored. I?m now getting demands for missed December, January, February and (in a couple of days) March payments of ?34 each, plus mounting monthly ?12.50 late payment penalties. And all because the ONE thing you can?t do with TalkTalk is ?TALK to them! Apparently their business is based somewhere in Africa. I?m very much looking forward to them taking me to Court over it all as they?re threatening! Box Broadband, on the other hand, have been as good as Gold, and I can pop into their local offices here in Cranleigh and talk face-to-face if I need to When II told them about the TalkTalk saga, they just laughed and said: ?oh, well good luck with that. Just ignore the (my new favourite word) twunts!? There, I feel better already!: Cheers, Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > On 14 Feb 2023, at 15:10, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Yes, and isn't it irritating that your one category of query is never listed! > > Perhaps there is a team of 'experts' who think up what possible answers we are NOT going to give! > > Pat > > (currently pissed off with Thunderbird which has a habit of 'losing' a message which has had time > spent on composing. Where's it effing gorn?) > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From alanaudio at me.com Tue Feb 14 13:41:23 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 19:41:23 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F5A09F4-706A-4546-961D-CF124DD98C82@me.com> Part of the Dolby certification for film dubbing suites covers the sound level used while mixing. The idea is that the sound is mixed and reproduced at a certain level, which should make for more consistent sound quality in theatres. Personally I find that level somewhat excessive and I think many others do too. In dubbing suites I used to mix at a rather lower level than most and I felt that it made judging the mix more critical. If a mix worked at low levels, it would still work well, if not better, when played back at higher levels. On the other hand, if mixing at high levels, you can pick out every element, but can?t necessarily judge the balance so effectively. It?s not uncommon for music to sound great when mixed at very high monitoring levels, but to sound not so good when reproduced at lower levels. I would prefer that the standard Dolby listening level was somewhat quieter, but I do agree with the idea that the level used while mixing should be similar to the level it?s replayed in the cinema. Alan > On 14 Feb 2023, at 19:23, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Can?t say we normally have an issue, except that it?s sometimes louder than necessary, but apparently they are not allowed to tweak after it?s been set up. > > Mike G > >>> On 14 Feb 2023, at 19:12, Pat Heigham wrote: >>> >>> Brilliant, Mike. >>> >>> The only time I saw a film at Dorking Halls, I was appalled at the audio reproduction. >>> The audtorium was not acoustically treated, and was very reverberant. >>> >>> Never gorn back! >>> >>> Pat >>> >>> Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> In response to Alec?s cinema story sans ads, we once went to Dorking Halls to see The Woman in Black. The usherettes waiting outside the door were delighted to see us, because no-one else had turned up and in the event of a no-show, they would be sent home without being paid for the full evening as they were on zero-hours contracts. Having settled ourselves, we were offered coffee, in proper mugs as one of the girls was going to make a cup for herself! We were still the only ones in the auditorium as the nominal performance time arrived, so I jokingly said to the lady with the coffee that they might as well skip the adverts as they wouldn?t influence us, but she immediately said that she would speak to the projectionist and, sure enough, the first thing we got were the trailers, followed immediately by the feature. >>> >>> >>> And to match Pat?s qualification tale, I was told at my initial BBC interview that it was only necessary to have completed a maths or physics A level course ~ a pass was not required! I wasn't doing maths, but I did get my physics. >>> >>> Mike G > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Waresound at msn.com Tue Feb 14 13:44:11 2023 From: Waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 19:44:11 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Help lines. In-Reply-To: <6A82A415-BC5D-4564-9365-92D06D941FA7@talktalk.net> References: <6A82A415-BC5D-4564-9365-92D06D941FA7@talktalk.net> Message-ID: I did raise a complaint, and got a reply claiming that my original 43 minute call had ended before the point where closure was agreed. Further complaint got the following reply, but it didn?t make any difference. Won?t say any more, lest I get accused of libel - not that it?s libel if it?s true. I?m sure I haven?t heard the end of them even now. If they do try to sue for non-payment, they?ll get a massive counter-claim for distress, harrassment and damage to mental health! [image0.jpeg] Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 14 Feb 2023, at 17:54, Hugh Snape wrote: ?These days if I get into a sticky patch like yours with TalkTalk I?m inclined to contact the organisation?s press office or post on Twitter making sure the Tweet includes @TalkTalk or whatever. The latter certainly worked with the unreachable Openreach the other day; a very quick response. NB, I?m also a TalkTalk customer, they can be very frustrating to deal with if there?s a problem but I dread having to change my email address as I?ve been with them for such a long time. Asking to ?raise a complaint? however will get you a call from one of the managers at the call centre and things then to get resolved more quickly. Best, Hugh Snape On 14 Feb 2023, at 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: Last October 19th we got online with Box Broadband fibre to the house with 100MBps up and down. For only a little more we could have had 1Gbps symmetrical. Our long-standing TalkTalk account was via ancient copper, with a pathetic best of 13Mbps down and 2Mbps upload. TalkTalk could not offer fibre despite the account being sold as ?Faster fibre?. I went to their website on 19/10/22 and found plenty of chatBOT options to upgrade, or to move my account if moving house, etc., but nothing about leaving them. After deliberately typing in garbage responses, I got dumped out to an ?agent? who would call back on my mobile. A barely intelligible voice, who when asked admitted to being in Mumbai, did call and was obviously a customer retention agent. That call lasted 43 excruciatingly frustrating minutes, and ended with the agent saying that the account would be closed on November 14th and that there would be nothing more to pay because my Oct 17th direct debit was for the following month in advance. And no termination penalty as they had failed to renew my contract after the year ending November 7th 2020. I put the phone down thinking that would be the end of it, and (fortunately) cancelled any further direct debit payments and disconnected the landline phone and modem. But that was just the beginning! Since then there have so far been 36 emails, numerous demands for ?missed? payments, and various letters via the post. All of the emails come from ?no-reply at ..? addresses, and all of them contain ?contact us on..? phone numbers. Those numbers are different on each occasion, and all of them go to chatBOTs that take you round and round in circles. My request for a transcript of the original 43 minute call, which was recorded ?for training purposes?, has been repeatedly ignored. I?m now getting demands for missed December, January, February and (in a couple of days) March payments of ?34 each, plus mounting monthly ?12.50 late payment penalties. And all because the ONE thing you can?t do with TalkTalk is ?.TALK to them! Apparently their business is based somewhere in Africa. I?m very much looking forward to them taking me to Court over it all as they?re threatening! Box Broadband, on the other hand, have been as good as Gold, and I can pop into their local offices here in Cranleigh and talk face-to-face if I need to. When II told them about the TalkTalk saga, they just laughed and said: ?oh, well good luck with that. Just ignore the (my new favourite word) twunts!? There, I feel better already!: Cheers, Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 14 Feb 2023, at 15:10, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: ?Yes, and isn't it irritating that your one category of query is never listed! Perhaps there is a team of 'experts' who think up what possible answers we are NOT going to give! Pat (currently pissed off with Thunderbird which has a habit of 'losing' a message which has had time spent on composing. Where's it effing gorn?) -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 781885 bytes Desc: image0.jpeg URL: From waresound at msn.com Tue Feb 14 16:36:56 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 22:36:56 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It?s a concert hall, the home of the Leigh Hill Music Festival, R.V. Williams, etc., not a cinema - unless you are talking about a hall I don?t know about. N. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 14 Feb 2023, at 19:12, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: ? Brilliant, Mike. The only time I saw a film at Dorking Halls, I was appalled at the audio reproduction. The audtorium was not acoustically treated, and was very reverberant. Never gorn back! Pat Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: In response to Alec?s cinema story sans ads, we once went to Dorking Halls to see The Woman in Black. The usherettes waiting outside the door were delighted to see us, because no-one else had turned up and in the event of a no-show, they would be sent home without being paid for the full evening as they were on zero-hours contracts. Having settled ourselves, we were offered coffee, in proper mugs as one of the girls was going to make a cup for herself! We were still the only ones in the auditorium as the nominal performance time arrived, so I jokingly said to the lady with the coffee that they might as well skip the adverts as they wouldn?t influence us, but she immediately said that she would speak to the projectionist and, sure enough, the first thing we got were the trailers, followed immediately by the feature. And to match Pat?s qualification tale, I was told at my initial BBC interview that it was only necessary to have completed a maths or physics A level course ~ a pass was not required! I wasn't doing maths, but I did get my physics. Mike G -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waresound at msn.com Tue Feb 14 16:42:53 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 22:42:53 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I actually did type Leith Hill, but auto correct doesn?t seem to think so. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 14 Feb 2023, at 22:36, Nick Ware wrote: ? It?s a concert hall, the home of the Leigh Hill Music Festival, R.V. Williams, etc., not a cinema - unless you are talking about a hall I don?t know about. N. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 14 Feb 2023, at 19:12, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: ? Brilliant, Mike. The only time I saw a film at Dorking Halls, I was appalled at the audio reproduction. The audtorium was not acoustically treated, and was very reverberant. Never gorn back! Pat Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: In response to Alec?s cinema story sans ads, we once went to Dorking Halls to see The Woman in Black. The usherettes waiting outside the door were delighted to see us, because no-one else had turned up and in the event of a no-show, they would be sent home without being paid for the full evening as they were on zero-hours contracts. Having settled ourselves, we were offered coffee, in proper mugs as one of the girls was going to make a cup for herself! We were still the only ones in the auditorium as the nominal performance time arrived, so I jokingly said to the lady with the coffee that they might as well skip the adverts as they wouldn?t influence us, but she immediately said that she would speak to the projectionist and, sure enough, the first thing we got were the trailers, followed immediately by the feature. And to match Pat?s qualification tale, I was told at my initial BBC interview that it was only necessary to have completed a maths or physics A level course ~ a pass was not required! I wasn't doing maths, but I did get my physics. Mike G -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mibridge at mac.com Wed Feb 15 01:29:41 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 07:29:41 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70D387A3-3BCA-482A-A865-776A3EACCF52@mac.com> Multi-purpose, Nick. All three areas are used to show films, normally only two at the same time. Mike G > On 14 Feb 2023, at 22:43, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: > > ? I actually did type Leith Hill, but auto correct doesn?t seem to think so. > > Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > >>> On 14 Feb 2023, at 22:36, Nick Ware wrote: >>> >> ? It?s a concert hall, the home of the Leigh Hill Music Festival, R.V. Williams, etc., not a cinema - unless you are talking about a hall I don?t know about. >> N. >> >> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 14 Feb 2023, at 19:12, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> Brilliant, Mike. >>> >>> The only time I saw a film at Dorking Halls, I was appalled at the audio reproduction. >>> The audtorium was not acoustically treated, and was very reverberant. >>> >>> Never gorn back! >>> >>> Pat >>> >>> Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>>> In response to Alec?s cinema story sans ads, we once went to Dorking Halls to see The Woman in Black. The usherettes waiting outside the door were delighted to see us, because no-one else had turned up and in the event of a no-show, they would be sent home without being paid for the full evening as they were on zero-hours contracts. Having settled ourselves, we were offered coffee, in proper mugs as one of the girls was going to make a cup for herself! We were still the only ones in the auditorium as the nominal performance time arrived, so I jokingly said to the lady with the coffee that they might as well skip the adverts as they wouldn?t influence us, but she immediately said that she would speak to the projectionist and, sure enough, the first thing we got were the trailers, followed immediately by the feature. >>>> >>>> >>>> And to match Pat?s qualification tale, I was told at my initial BBC interview that it was only necessary to have completed a maths or physics A level course ~ a pass was not required! I wasn't doing maths, but I did get my physics. >>>> >>>> Mike G >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waresound at msn.com Wed Feb 15 02:49:46 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 08:49:46 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] The trials of life Message-ID: ??Ah, OK. I have to admit that the last time I was there was when Ralph Vaughan-Williams was alive, and he died in 1958! Cheers, Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 15 Feb 2023, at 07:30, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: ? Multi-purpose, Nick. All three areas are used to show films, normally only two at the same time. Mike G On 14 Feb 2023, at 22:43, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: ? I actually did type Leith Hill, but auto correct doesn?t seem to think so. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 14 Feb 2023, at 22:36, Nick Ware wrote: ? It?s a concert hall, the home of the Leigh Hill Music Festival, R.V. Williams, etc., not a cinema - unless you are talking about a hall I don?t know about. N. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 14 Feb 2023, at 19:12, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: ? Brilliant, Mike. The only time I saw a film at Dorking Halls, I was appalled at the audio reproduction. The audtorium was not acoustically treated, and was very reverberant. Never gorn back! Pat Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: In response to Alec?s cinema story sans ads, we once went to Dorking Halls to see The Woman in Black. The usherettes waiting outside the door were delighted to see us, because no-one else had turned up and in the event of a no-show, they would be sent home without being paid for the full evening as they were on zero-hours contracts. Having settled ourselves, we were offered coffee, in proper mugs as one of the girls was going to make a cup for herself! We were still the only ones in the auditorium as the nominal performance time arrived, so I jokingly said to the lady with the coffee that they might as well skip the adverts as they wouldn?t influence us, but she immediately said that she would speak to the projectionist and, sure enough, the first thing we got were the trailers, followed immediately by the feature. And to match Pat?s qualification tale, I was told at my initial BBC interview that it was only necessary to have completed a maths or physics A level course ~ a pass was not required! I wasn't doing maths, but I did get my physics. Mike G -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 10:19:41 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 16:19:41 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Help lines. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been on Barclay's 'Chat' help since about 1330, so well over 2 hours. And after going though the entire thing yet again (they can find no details of the query they raised with tech support despite me having the reference number) they finally go though to an expert themselves who re-enabled the contactless payment there and then. So I no longer get the error message. My guess is I've wasted 24 hours or so in total trying to get something that simple fixed. I've no idea why thy disabled it. Only ever use it a couple of times a week.And at reputable places like Tesco. On 14/02/2023 14:58, Dave Plowman wrote: > About a month ago, my phone decided to stop making contactless payments. > A pain, as I now need to carry my card too. > > On checking the setup of the Barclays App, on going to contactless > payments I get the message? "unfortunately you can't make contactless > mobile payments with this device" > > Thinking it might be a problem with the sensor or whatever, I try the > old phone - only to get the same message. > > So decided it must be a problem with the Barclay App. > > Look thought 'help' and of course no mention of this fault, so phone the > number they say to use on the error message. And after three tries, > hanging on for ages, give up. > > So decide to try chat. And of course all the advice given there is the > same as the help pages. So eventually, they decide to pass it on to an > 'expert' and give me a reference number. And say it will take 5 working > days. Which took us to last Friday. > > Go back to chat today and ask for the results. And am told it's only > just more than 5 working days, so to try again later. From rerb2 at cam.ac.uk Fri Feb 17 07:45:06 2023 From: rerb2 at cam.ac.uk (R.E.R. Bunce) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98People_Make_Television=E2=80=99?= Message-ID: <20B9CE16-83F9-4197-B234-64205A9E65F6@cam.ac.uk> Hello all, There?s an excellent show of archival BBC television at Raven Row gallery in Spitalfields. ?People Make Television? Is a show of episodes of Open Door, from the 70s through to the 80s. It?s all very political, but the quality is excellent. The material is being shown on traditional cathode ray television sets, and looks great. There?s also some great discussions shot in (what looks like) undressed studios at BBC Television Centre. There?s a link to the exhibition here: https://www.newexhibitions.com/e/60575 Best wishes, Robin Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.neill at icloud.com Fri Feb 17 07:50:08 2023 From: peter.neill at icloud.com (Peter Neill) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:50:08 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98People_Make_Television=E2=80=99?= In-Reply-To: <20B9CE16-83F9-4197-B234-64205A9E65F6@cam.ac.uk> References: <20B9CE16-83F9-4197-B234-64205A9E65F6@cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17DF92E7-8EB8-4D3D-B4A1-99C64DA5E31A@icloud.com> IIRC Open Door had a lot of location filming but the studio segments were done in Pres B which was often used without any set. As the programmes were mostly made by pressure groups who felt they didn?t have a voice they could be regarded as political with a small p. Peter Neill Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for typos and autocorruptions. > On 17 Feb 2023, at 13:45, R.E.R. Bunce via Tech1 wrote: > > ? Hello all, > > There?s an excellent show of archival BBC television at Raven Row gallery in Spitalfields. ?People Make Television? Is a show of episodes of Open Door, from the 70s through to the 80s. It?s all very political, but the quality is excellent. The material is being shown on traditional cathode ray television sets, and looks great. There?s also some great discussions shot in (what looks like) undressed studios at BBC Television Centre. > > There?s a link to the exhibition here: > > https://www.newexhibitions.com/e/60575 > > Best wishes, > > Robin > > > > Sent from my iPhone > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philiptyler at me.com Sat Feb 18 14:31:54 2023 From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 20:31:54 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= Message-ID: <829D55DB-E7C0-4072-AF79-4C51158CD5E3@me.com> The other day I posted a picture of an Indian Roller on Facebook and captioned it as that. Very shortly afterwards my FB account was suspended, for not abiding by the FB guidelines. And if I wanted to contest it I had 24 hours to do so. There was no mention of what in their guidelines I had transgressed. So I did contest it and a day later my account was reinstated, with no explanation. I have to assume as the only post I had made in a while was the picture of an Indian Roller that caused the problem. Which leads me to assume that AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching. If they did they would have known about the Indian Roller. But being non birders they saw Indian and then roller and assumed it was some derogatory term. When the human being had a look they realised it was in fact a picture of an Indian Roller and reinstated my account. Philip and Bee https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6005874 bytes Desc: not available URL: From graeme.wall at icloud.com Sat Feb 18 16:01:52 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 22:01:52 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <829D55DB-E7C0-4072-AF79-4C51158CD5E3@me.com> References: <829D55DB-E7C0-4072-AF79-4C51158CD5E3@me.com> Message-ID: <29CDA61C-41C8-4909-988E-AEFA221F4E70@icloud.com> Many years ago, before facebook and the like, I was banned by an internet forum for mentioning blue tits! > On 18 Feb 2023, at 20:31, Philip Tyler via Tech1 wrote: > > The other day I posted a picture of an Indian Roller on Facebook and captioned it as that. > > Very shortly afterwards my FB account was suspended, for not abiding by the FB guidelines. And if I wanted to contest it I had 24 hours to do so. There was no mention of what in their guidelines I had transgressed. > > So I did contest it and a day later my account was reinstated, with no explanation. > > I have to assume as the only post I had made in a while was the picture of an Indian Roller that caused the problem. Which leads me to assume that AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching. If they did they would have known about the Indian Roller. But being non birders they saw Indian and then roller and assumed it was some derogatory term. When the human being had a look they realised it was in fact a picture of an Indian Roller and reinstated my account. > > > > Philip and Bee > > https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/ > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From alawrance1 at me.com Sat Feb 18 16:10:31 2023 From: alawrance1 at me.com (Alasdair Lawrance) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 22:10:31 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <29CDA61C-41C8-4909-988E-AEFA221F4E70@icloud.com> References: <29CDA61C-41C8-4909-988E-AEFA221F4E70@icloud.com> Message-ID: <18CC1B24-B960-4E75-AABA-3152358579A6@me.com> I've heard of the same thing happening with breast- feeding and robin redbreast. There's some good ones going with ChatGPT, although I haven't tried it myself. Alasdair Lawrance Don?t blame me, I voted Remain. > On 18 Feb 2023, at 22:02, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Many years ago, before facebook and the like, I was banned by an internet forum for mentioning blue tits! > > >> On 18 Feb 2023, at 20:31, Philip Tyler via Tech1 wrote: >> >> The other day I posted a picture of an Indian Roller on Facebook and captioned it as that. >> >> Very shortly afterwards my FB account was suspended, for not abiding by the FB guidelines. And if I wanted to contest it I had 24 hours to do so. There was no mention of what in their guidelines I had transgressed. >> >> So I did contest it and a day later my account was reinstated, with no explanation. >> >> I have to assume as the only post I had made in a while was the picture of an Indian Roller that caused the problem. Which leads me to assume that AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching. If they did they would have known about the Indian Roller. But being non birders they saw Indian and then roller and assumed it was some derogatory term. When the human being had a look they realised it was in fact a picture of an Indian Roller and reinstated my account. >> >> >> >> Philip and Bee >> >> https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/ >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > ? > Graeme Wall > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Sat Feb 18 17:16:17 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:16:17 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <829D55DB-E7C0-4072-AF79-4C51158CD5E3@me.com> References: <829D55DB-E7C0-4072-AF79-4C51158CD5E3@me.com> Message-ID: Off topic but I thought maybe one of us could digress into mentioning what a beautiful photograph it was that caused all the trouble.! Vaguely connected is the topic of sub-title howlers on BBC News. I?ve seen so many and always think I?ll remember them but almost invariably don?t. This morning?s however did stick a little longer ? US shooting down of a Russian violin. Dave Newbitt. From: Philip Tyler via Tech1 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 8:31 PM To: BBC Tech-ops Subject: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! The other day I posted a picture of an Indian Roller on Facebook and captioned it as that. Very shortly afterwards my FB account was suspended, for not abiding by the FB guidelines. And if I wanted to contest it I had 24 hours to do so. There was no mention of what in their guidelines I had transgressed. So I did contest it and a day later my account was reinstated, with no explanation. I have to assume as the only post I had made in a while was the picture of an Indian Roller that caused the problem. Which leads me to assume that AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching. If they did they would have known about the Indian Roller. But being non birders they saw Indian and then roller and assumed it was some derogatory term. When the human being had a look they realised it was in fact a picture of an Indian Roller and reinstated my account. Philip and Bee https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mibridge at mac.com Sun Feb 19 01:18:41 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 07:18:41 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Sun Feb 19 02:19:43 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 08:19:43 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9649771923B04642975F20B51DAFE622@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Good morning Mike. Of course I did mean Chinese! Instead of drawing attention to misrepresentation I end up being a perpetrator. I?m a week off my 80th and fully intend sharpening up for the next decade. Thank you for the gentleness of your correction! Dave N. From: Mike Giles via Tech1 Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 7:18 AM To: Tech Ops Subject: Re: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! Do you mean Russian, Dave? I thought it was Chinese. Mike G On 18 Feb 2023, at 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: ? Off topic but I thought maybe one of us could digress into mentioning what a beautiful photograph it was that caused all the trouble.! Vaguely connected is the topic of sub-title howlers on BBC News. I?ve seen so many and always think I?ll remember them but almost invariably don?t. This morning?s however did stick a little longer ? US shooting down of a Russian violin. Dave Newbitt. From: Philip Tyler via Tech1 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 8:31 PM To: BBC Tech-ops Subject: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! The other day I posted a picture of an Indian Roller on Facebook and captioned it as that. Very shortly afterwards my FB account was suspended, for not abiding by the FB guidelines. And if I wanted to contest it I had 24 hours to do so. There was no mention of what in their guidelines I had transgressed. So I did contest it and a day later my account was reinstated, with no explanation. I have to assume as the only post I had made in a while was the picture of an Indian Roller that caused the problem. Which leads me to assume that AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching. If they did they would have known about the Indian Roller. But being non birders they saw Indian and then roller and assumed it was some derogatory term. When the human being had a look they realised it was in fact a picture of an Indian Roller and reinstated my account. Philip and Bee https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From graeme.wall at icloud.com Sun Feb 19 02:57:59 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 08:57:59 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <9649771923B04642975F20B51DAFE622@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> References: <9649771923B04642975F20B51DAFE622@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Message-ID: <4B1FE7E8-155E-442F-B18D-EA0508891799@icloud.com> And there was I thinking that Prokfiev was causing trouble again. > On 19 Feb 2023, at 08:19, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > > Good morning Mike. Of course I did mean Chinese! > Instead of drawing attention to misrepresentation I end up being a perpetrator. > I?m a week off my 80th and fully intend sharpening up for the next decade. > Thank you for the gentleness of your correction! > Dave N. > From: Mike Giles via Tech1 Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 7:18 AM > To: Tech Ops Subject: Re: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! > Do you mean Russian, Dave? I thought it was Chinese. > Mike G > >> On 18 Feb 2023, at 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ? Off topic but I thought maybe one of us could digress into mentioning what a beautiful photograph it was that caused all the trouble.! >> Vaguely connected is the topic of sub-title howlers on BBC News. I?ve seen so many and always think I?ll remember them but almost invariably don?t. This morning?s however did stick a little longer ? US shooting down of a Russian violin. >> Dave Newbitt. >> From: Philip Tyler via Tech1 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 8:31 PM >> To: BBC Tech-ops Subject: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! >> The other day I posted a picture of an Indian Roller on Facebook and captioned it as that. >> Very shortly afterwards my FB account was suspended, for not abiding by the FB guidelines. And if I wanted to contest it I had 24 hours to do so. There was no mention of what in their guidelines I had transgressed. >> So I did contest it and a day later my account was reinstated, with no explanation. >> I have to assume as the only post I had made in a while was the picture of an Indian Roller that caused the problem. Which leads me to assume that AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching. If they did they would have known about the Indian Roller. But being non birders they saw Indian and then roller and assumed it was some derogatory term. When the human being had a look they realised it was in fact a picture of an Indian Roller and reinstated my account. >> >> >> Philip and Bee >> https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/ >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Sun Feb 19 03:21:08 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 09:21:08 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <4B1FE7E8-155E-442F-B18D-EA0508891799@icloud.com> References: <9649771923B04642975F20B51DAFE622@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> <4B1FE7E8-155E-442F-B18D-EA0508891799@icloud.com> Message-ID: <05F913F47CB14255A0E45607B2BC6CD6@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Nice one Graeme! Dave N. -----Original Message----- From: Graeme Wall Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 8:57 AM To: David Newbitt Cc: Mike Giles ; Tech ops Subject: Re: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! And there was I thinking that Prokfiev was causing trouble again. > On 19 Feb 2023, at 08:19, David Newbitt via Tech1 > wrote: > > Good morning Mike. Of course I did mean Chinese! > Instead of drawing attention to misrepresentation I end up being a > perpetrator. > I?m a week off my 80th and fully intend sharpening up for the next decade. > Thank you for the gentleness of your correction! > Dave N. > From: Mike Giles via Tech1 Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 7:18 AM > To: Tech Ops Subject: Re: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go > birdwatching! > Do you mean Russian, Dave? I thought it was Chinese. > Mike G > >> On 18 Feb 2023, at 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> ? Off topic but I thought maybe one of us could digress into mentioning >> what a beautiful photograph it was that caused all the trouble.! >> Vaguely connected is the topic of sub-title howlers on BBC News. I?ve >> seen so many and always think I?ll remember them but almost invariably >> don?t. This morning?s however did stick a little longer ? US shooting >> down of a Russian violin. >> Dave Newbitt. >> From: Philip Tyler via Tech1 Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2023 8:31 PM >> To: BBC Tech-ops Subject: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go >> birdwatching! >> The other day I posted a picture of an Indian Roller on Facebook and >> captioned it as that. >> Very shortly afterwards my FB account was suspended, for not abiding by >> the FB guidelines. And if I wanted to contest it I had 24 hours to do so. >> There was no mention of what in their guidelines I had transgressed. >> So I did contest it and a day later my account was reinstated, with no >> explanation. >> I have to assume as the only post I had made in a while was the picture >> of an Indian Roller that caused the problem. Which leads me to assume >> that AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching. If they did they would >> have known about the Indian Roller. But being non birders they saw Indian >> and then roller and assumed it was some derogatory term. When the human >> being had a look they realised it was in fact a picture of an Indian >> Roller and reinstated my account. >> >> >> Philip and Bee >> https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/ >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From pat.heigham at amps.net Mon Feb 20 01:38:39 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 07:38:39 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76df437c-9290-6e13-7dd4-e22909164a9d@amps.net> So what was the word that ended up as 'violin'? Speaking of subtitles, last night, Sun 19th, watched an interesting historical prog about the Dambusters raid. This was on PBS America channel. The subtitles were nearly one minute out of sync, (delayed). Didn't stay on that channel to see if following programmes were similarly affected. Pat >> Vaguely connected is the topic of sub-title howlers on BBC News. I?ve >> seen so many and always think I?ll remember them but almost >> invariably don?t. This morning?s however did stick a little longer ? >> US shooting down of a Russian violin. >> Dave Newbitt. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Mon Feb 20 01:50:35 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 07:50:35 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <829D55DB-E7C0-4072-AF79-4C51158CD5E3@me.com> References: <829D55DB-E7C0-4072-AF79-4C51158CD5E3@me.com> Message-ID: This reminds me of my attempt to post a message, praising the work of Sound Supervisor Richard Chamberlain on Top of the Pops. He could, with only a half hour band call, reproduce the sound of whichever current recording was in the top ten. I had used his nickname by which we all knew him as Dickie Chamberlain. The message got censored, as it was deemed that Dickie was 'a rude word'! Pat On 18/02/2023 20:31, Philip Tyler via Tech1 wrote: > The other day I posted a picture of an Indian Roller on Facebook and > captioned it as that. > > Very shortly afterwards my FB account was suspended, for not abiding > by the FB guidelines. And if I wanted to contest it I had 24 hours to > do so. There was no mention of what in their guidelines I had > transgressed. > > So I did contest it and a day later my account was reinstated, with no > explanation. > > I have to assume as the only post I had made in a while was the > picture of an Indian Roller that caused the problem. Which leads me to > assume that AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching. If they did > they would have known about the Indian Roller. But being non birders > they saw Indian and then roller and assumed it was some derogatory > term. When the human being had a look they realised it was in fact a > picture of an Indian Roller and reinstated my account. > > > > Philip and Bee > From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Mon Feb 20 02:24:15 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 08:24:15 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <76df437c-9290-6e13-7dd4-e22909164a9d@amps.net> References: <76df437c-9290-6e13-7dd4-e22909164a9d@amps.net> Message-ID: Balloon, Pat. Dave N From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:38 AM To: Mike Giles ; Tech Ops Subject: Re: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! So what was the word that ended up as 'violin'? Speaking of subtitles, last night, Sun 19th, watched an interesting historical prog about the Dambusters raid. This was on PBS America channel. The subtitles were nearly one minute out of sync, (delayed). Didn't stay on that channel to see if following programmes were similarly affected. Pat Vaguely connected is the topic of sub-title howlers on BBC News. I?ve seen so many and always think I?ll remember them but almost invariably don?t. This morning?s however did stick a little longer ? US shooting down of a Russian violin. Dave Newbitt. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Mon Feb 20 02:58:41 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 08:58:41 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: References: <76df437c-9290-6e13-7dd4-e22909164a9d@amps.net> Message-ID: <1655964d-0913-6a35-cf50-1363edd280b4@amps.net> Thanks, Dave, I was wondering about the subtitling method: 'speech-to-text' app, or a fast fingered stenographer? I suspect the former as recently, an error (amongst many!) replaced 'barque' (sailing ship) as bark' (as in dog). The system is patently imperfect - perhaps context detection needs to be an add-on? Correctly detecting homophones would need a huge processor? THe English language is rich in idiom - you must know the story of a translation programme which was fed with "Out of sight, out of mind" Out came the words in another language. Switch flipped and characters fed back. Out result: "Blind idiot"! Literal, but not idiomatic! Best regards Pat On 20/02/2023 08:24, David Newbitt wrote: > Balloon, Pat. > Dave N > *From:* Pat Heigham via Tech1 > *Sent:* Monday, February 20, 2023 7:38 AM > *To:* Mike Giles ; Tech Ops > *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! > > So what was the word that ended up as 'violin'? > > Speaking of subtitles, last night, Sun 19th, watched an interesting > historical prog about the Dambusters raid. > This was on PBS America channel. The subtitles were nearly one minute > out of sync, (delayed). > > Didn't stay on that channel to see if following programmes were > similarly affected. > > Pat > > >>> Vaguely connected is the topic of sub-title howlers on BBC News. >>> I?ve seen so many and always think I?ll remember them but almost >>> invariably don?t. This morning?s however did stick a little longer ? >>> US shooting down of a Russian violin. >>> Dave Newbitt. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waresound at msn.com Mon Feb 20 03:04:08 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:04:08 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Auto-generated captioning by speech recognition only works accurately if the speech is clear, which it seldom is on BBC News presenters (and is why people have the captions on in the first place). I was with a couple of old fogies at the weekend, who complained to me that the stupid wide shots mean that they can?t lipread anymore. Because I once worked at the BBC they have the strange idea that I must be to blame for everything! N. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 20 Feb 2023, at 08:24, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: ? Balloon, Pat. Dave N From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:38 AM To: Mike Giles ; Tech Ops Subject: Re: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! So what was the word that ended up as 'violin'? Speaking of subtitles, last night, Sun 19th, watched an interesting historical prog about the Dambusters raid. This was on PBS America channel. The subtitles were nearly one minute out of sync, (delayed). Didn't stay on that channel to see if following programmes were similarly affected. Pat Vaguely connected is the topic of sub-title howlers on BBC News. I?ve seen so many and always think I?ll remember them but almost invariably don?t. This morning?s however did stick a little longer ? US shooting down of a Russian violin. Dave Newbitt. ________________________________ -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.neill at icloud.com Mon Feb 20 03:13:42 2023 From: peter.neill at icloud.com (Peter Neill) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:13:42 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <804A1225-FD88-4B3B-A7B0-2E030CE4DBBA@icloud.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rerb2 at cam.ac.uk Mon Feb 20 03:26:34 2023 From: rerb2 at cam.ac.uk (R.E.R. Bunce) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:26:34 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98People_Make_Television=E2=80=99?= In-Reply-To: <17DF92E7-8EB8-4D3D-B4A1-99C64DA5E31A@icloud.com> References: <20B9CE16-83F9-4197-B234-64205A9E65F6@cam.ac.uk> <17DF92E7-8EB8-4D3D-B4A1-99C64DA5E31A@icloud.com> Message-ID: Dear Peter, Thank you for letting me know. I remember my Dad talking about Pres B, and I know I visited at least on of the Pres studios on a trip to TVC. That's also really interesting about the way the BBC viewed the 'politics' in the shows. Wishing you well, Robin ________________________________ From: Peter Neill Sent: 17 February 2023 13:50 To: R.E.R. Bunce Cc: TechOps Forum Subject: Re: [Tech1] ?People Make Television? IIRC Open Door had a lot of location filming but the studio segments were done in Pres B which was often used without any set. As the programmes were mostly made by pressure groups who felt they didn?t have a voice they could be regarded as political with a small p. Peter Neill Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for typos and autocorruptions. On 17 Feb 2023, at 13:45, R.E.R. Bunce via Tech1 wrote: ? Hello all, There?s an excellent show of archival BBC television at Raven Row gallery in Spitalfields. ?People Make Television? Is a show of episodes of Open Door, from the 70s through to the 80s. It?s all very political, but the quality is excellent. The material is being shown on traditional cathode ray television sets, and looks great. There?s also some great discussions shot in (what looks like) undressed studios at BBC Television Centre. There?s a link to the exhibition here: https://www.newexhibitions.com/e/60575 Best wishes, Robin Sent from my iPhone -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Mon Feb 20 04:08:47 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 10:08:47 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <804A1225-FD88-4B3B-A7B0-2E030CE4DBBA@icloud.com> References: <804A1225-FD88-4B3B-A7B0-2E030CE4DBBA@icloud.com> Message-ID: <412398c0-bcd0-7d18-7a34-74285a36a4ea@amps.net> Presumably, the control keyboard has buttons labelled with Huw, Fiona, Reeta, Clive etc. Maybe there are others: Yoda, Darth Vader, Chewbacca.... Does the software have a direct feed of the presenter's mic I wonder. Or maybe of the new rectal mic. which must always be used with an efficient wind gag for guest politicians. Pat On 20/02/2023 09:13, Peter Neill via Tech1 wrote: > As I under it, Live subtitles are indeed produced by speech > recognition BUT the software recognises the voice of a person who > revoices the live speech. The software is trained to recognise > specific voices which gives a better result. If the subtitler spots an > error they are able to retype it but that leads to delays. I think all > in all they do a reasonable job. What annoys me is mistakes, > particularly in unscripted documentaries, which don?t appear to be > proofread. I don?t know if it?s still the case but there was a time > when news subtitles were done in Australia overnight as it was cheaper > than paying night rates here. > > Best > > Peter Neill From peter.neill at icloud.com Mon Feb 20 04:11:24 2023 From: peter.neill at icloud.com (Peter Neill) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 10:11:24 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <412398c0-bcd0-7d18-7a34-74285a36a4ea@amps.net> References: <412398c0-bcd0-7d18-7a34-74285a36a4ea@amps.net> Message-ID: <7D799F6C-EA91-464F-B667-F2DA2E1780AF@icloud.com> No - the software doesn?t hear the presenter?s voice - only the revoicer?s. Pre scripted links etc can be loaded into the system, though. Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for typos and autocorruptions. > On 20 Feb 2023, at 10:08, Pat Heigham wrote: > > ?Presumably, the control keyboard has buttons labelled with Huw, Fiona, Reeta, Clive etc. > Maybe there are others: Yoda, Darth Vader, Chewbacca.... > > Does the software have a direct feed of the presenter's mic I wonder. > > Or maybe of the new rectal mic. which must always be used with an efficient wind gag > for guest politicians. > > Pat > > >> On 20/02/2023 09:13, Peter Neill via Tech1 wrote: >> As I under it, Live subtitles are indeed produced by speech recognition BUT the software recognises the voice of a person who revoices the live speech. The software is trained to recognise specific voices which gives a better result. If the subtitler spots an error they are able to retype it but that leads to delays. I think all in all they do a reasonable job. What annoys me is mistakes, particularly in unscripted documentaries, which don?t appear to be proofread. I don?t know if it?s still the case but there was a time when news subtitles were done in Australia overnight as it was cheaper than paying night rates here. >> >> Best >> >> Peter Neill From graeme.wall at icloud.com Mon Feb 20 04:12:54 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 10:12:54 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <412398c0-bcd0-7d18-7a34-74285a36a4ea@amps.net> References: <804A1225-FD88-4B3B-A7B0-2E030CE4DBBA@icloud.com> <412398c0-bcd0-7d18-7a34-74285a36a4ea@amps.net> Message-ID: <36BD5FDA-BCE7-44B3-A3C7-E4F74D2034E9@icloud.com> Love it, Pat. > On 20 Feb 2023, at 10:08, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > Or maybe of the new rectal mic. which must always be used with an efficient wind gag > for guest politicians. ? Graeme Wall From pat.heigham at amps.net Mon Feb 20 04:26:16 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 10:26:16 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <7D799F6C-EA91-464F-B667-F2DA2E1780AF@icloud.com> References: <412398c0-bcd0-7d18-7a34-74285a36a4ea@amps.net> <7D799F6C-EA91-464F-B667-F2DA2E1780AF@icloud.com> Message-ID: <97f484a9-8a25-d9ce-f424-b80a2bd29062@amps.net> Ah! Not knowing the procedure, it appears that a revoicer is effectively overdubbing the presenters? Bit like an audio version of signing? But from your earlier message, surely the software could be trained to recognise the on-camera readers. Maybe that would be a better result. But obviously the pieces to camera are scripted and autocued. Obviously the interviewees are a different entity. Pat On 20/02/2023 10:11, Peter Neill wrote: > No - the software doesn?t hear the presenter?s voice - only the revoicer?s. Pre scripted links etc can be loaded into the system, though. > > On 20 Feb 2023, at 10:08, Pat Heigham wrote: > > ?Presumably, the control keyboard has buttons labelled with Huw, Fiona, Reeta, Clive etc. > Maybe there are others: Yoda, Darth Vader, Chewbacca.... > > Does the software have a direct feed of the presenter's mic I wonder. > > Or maybe of the new rectal mic. which must always be used with an efficient wind gag > for guest politicians. > > Pat > > >>> On 20/02/2023 09:13, Peter Neill via Tech1 wrote: >>> As I under it, Live subtitles are indeed produced by speech recognition BUT the software recognises the voice of a person who revoices the live speech. The software is trained to recognise specific voices which gives a better result. If the subtitler spots an error they are able to retype it but that leads to delays. I think all in all they do a reasonable job. What annoys me is mistakes, particularly in unscripted documentaries, which don?t appear to be proofread. I don?t know if it?s still the case but there was a time when news subtitles were done in Australia overnight as it was cheaper than paying night rates here. >>> >>> Best >>> >>> Peter Neill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Mon Feb 20 04:32:59 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 10:32:59 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <804A1225-FD88-4B3B-A7B0-2E030CE4DBBA@icloud.com> References: <804A1225-FD88-4B3B-A7B0-2E030CE4DBBA@icloud.com> Message-ID: <56C6531C-6327-493A-B79E-1D79F1BBF21B@me.com> I always like combining two themes in one reply. Smartphones use AI for a number of purposes. Apple in particular tries to respect the privacy of users and many of the AI tasks are performed entirely within an iPhone, ensuring maximum privacy. One example of that is voice to text, or dictation. There?s a microphone symbol at the bottom on the keyboard and if you press that, you can dictate text instead of typing it. Where the AI really comes into it is that it?s always keeping an eye on what you?re typing or dictating and will try to predict what your next word might be. For instance, after that full stop, it offered three words to start this sentence, ?The?, ?I? or ?We?. All pretty sensible choices, but wrong in this case ( although to its credit it did offer ?case? after I typed ?wrong in this?. Where this really comes into its own is when you?re dictating words because it?s not just listening to what you say, but also thinking about word patterns which you tend to use. As a result it is still likely to correctly identify an indistinctly spoken word if the context of that word is familiar. My wife uses the speech to text feature a lot because she learned to speak English by living here and she speaks excellent English, but she was never formally taught written English. As a result, she sometimes struggles to spell some of the more treacherous English words. Yesterday we were sat on the sofa and she was writing an email when she suddenly said ?onerous?. I wondered what was going on and realised that she was dictating the word to make sure she didn?t misspell it. This predictive ability doesn?t work particularly well straight out of the box on a brand new device. It needs time to learn your style and the more you use it, the more accurate it becomes. There?s a lot of other AI going on within iPhones too and other smartphones, but I don?t know exactly what other phones do. Photographs are analysed within the device. If you type ?SUV? within the search field of Apple?s photo album, it selects pictures of cars which look to be 4x4s. Similarly ?beach? comes up with pictures of sand and sea. None of those pictures needed to be sent to a central server for analysis, it was done within the phone. There?s a lot of AI happening in the camera on top end iPhones too. When you take a picture, it starts analysing while you frame the shot, taking multiple pictures and discarding them. When you press the shutter, it keeps the eight preceding images and analyses every pixel of each image to intelligently combines elements from them. The AI then produces its optimum version of the photo. Computational photography is a different concept to how we took pictures on celluloid or on ?normal? digital cameras. It produces different results. Usually better, but not always. Needless to say, these features can be over-ridden. If you take a picture using ?Portrait? mode ( it?s a setting to opt for computational photography - not the picture orientation ), you can tweak the computation effects retrospectively. The camera separates the subject from the background, either by LIDAR technology on top end models, or by image analysis on others. It can then simulate lighting effects or throw the background out of focus. When viewing the image, there is an ?f? icon with a range of f1.4 to f14 in order to simulate depth of field effects. Again it?s not always perfect, especially with wispy hair ( we already knew about that thirty years ago ), but it can be very effective and it can be fun to tweak things like the depth of field, long after you took the picture and have the ability to save alternative versions of one image with quite different looks. Alan > On 20 Feb 2023, at 09:14, Peter Neill via Tech1 wrote: > > ?As I under it, Live subtitles are indeed produced by speech recognition BUT the software recognises the voice of a person who revoices the live speech. The software is trained to recognise specific voices which gives a better result. If the subtitler spots an error they are able to retype it but that leads to delays. I think all in all they do a reasonable job. What annoys me is mistakes, particularly in unscripted documentaries, which don?t appear to be proofread. I don?t know if it?s still the case but there was a time when news subtitles were done in Australia overnight as it was cheaper than paying night rates here. > > Best > > Peter Neill > > Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for typos and autocorruptions. > >>> On 20 Feb 2023, at 09:04, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: >>> >> ? Auto-generated captioning by speech recognition only works accurately if the speech is clear, which it seldom is on BBC News presenters (and is why people have the captions on in the first place). >> I was with a couple of old fogies at the weekend, who complained to me that the stupid wide shots mean that they can?t lipread anymore. Because I once worked at the BBC they have the strange idea that I must be to blame for everything! >> N. >> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 20 Feb 2023, at 08:24, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> Balloon, Pat. >>> >>> Dave N >>> >>> From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 >>> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 7:38 AM >>> To: Mike Giles ; Tech Ops >>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! >>> >>> So what was the word that ended up as 'violin'? >>> >>> Speaking of subtitles, last night, Sun 19th, watched an interesting historical prog about the Dambusters raid. >>> This was on PBS America channel. The subtitles were nearly one minute out of sync, (delayed). >>> >>> Didn't stay on that channel to see if following programmes were similarly affected. >>> >>> Pat >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Vaguely connected is the topic of sub-title howlers on BBC News. I?ve seen so many and always think I?ll remember them but almost invariably don?t. This morning?s however did stick a little longer ? US shooting down of a Russian violin. >>>>> >>>>> Dave Newbitt. >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikej at bmanor.co.uk Mon Feb 20 04:33:46 2023 From: mikej at bmanor.co.uk (Mike Jordan) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 10:33:46 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?AI=E2=80=99s_and_algorithms_don=E2=80=99t_go_b?= =?utf-8?q?irdwatching!?= In-Reply-To: <7D799F6C-EA91-464F-B667-F2DA2E1780AF@icloud.com> References: <412398c0-bcd0-7d18-7a34-74285a36a4ea@amps.net> <7D799F6C-EA91-464F-B667-F2DA2E1780AF@icloud.com> Message-ID: <38DDEF0E89AD4F9FB8D2F5F466D37284@Gigabyte> AH! Now a mere engineer may understand a bit more about subtitling. Do you mean that the computer voice recognition system doesn't "listen" to the studio presenter or the interviewed person themselves but there is an intermediate "human" who re-voices everything said either by the presenter or the guest and that is what the computer listens to and recognises and turns into the subtitles? Bit off topic, as a comms man, isn't it amazing how reporters can appear from almost anywhere in the world with reasonable audio and almost no delay (mostly) and get undelayed clean feed. Much better than in my day when everything was up and back by satellite so huge delays everywhere. This fibre stuff has a lot to answer for. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Peter Neill via Tech1 Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:11 AM To: Pat Heigham Cc: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] AI?s and algorithms don?t go birdwatching! No - the software doesn?t hear the presenter?s voice - only the revoicer?s. Pre scripted links etc can be loaded into the system, though. From waresound at msn.com Wed Feb 22 07:53:04 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 13:53:04 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps Message-ID: Just wondering if anyone here has any actual experience of heat pumps? We live in an exceptionally quiet woodland residential area. It?s a cul-de-sac consisting of 18 detached 4 bedroom houses. One of the houses about 50metres away from us has recently been gutted and refurbished by its new residents, and since then we have been hearing a very noticeable low frequency hum and whining sound (approx 80Hz and 400Hz). This goes on from around 1AM till 8AM. I?m pretty sure it?s the external heat exchanger unit, a box the size of a fridge with a large fan on the front. We feel the LF hum through the ground and building structure, while the 400Hz is acoustic. It?s a bit awkward to ask them about it because they?ve made it very clear that they don?t want to befriend any of the other residents! Are heat pumps really the future the government are wanting us to turn to? I dread to think how it would be if all houses were like that. We moved here to escape the noise of a petrol station opposite us that had 9 such fans running 24/7, in their case, refrigerated food shelves, fridges, and air conditioning etc. Cheers, Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad From mikej at bmanor.co.uk Wed Feb 22 08:25:36 2023 From: mikej at bmanor.co.uk (Mike Jordan) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 14:25:36 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte> Hey Nick have you been reading the BBC News page? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57159056 Mike -----Original Message----- From: Nick Ware via Tech1 Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 1:53 PM To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps Just wondering if anyone here has any actual experience of heat pumps? We live in an exceptionally quiet woodland residential area. It?s a cul-de-sac consisting of 18 detached 4 bedroom houses. One of the houses about 50metres away from us has recently been gutted and refurbished by its new residents, and since then we have been hearing a very noticeable low frequency hum and whining sound (approx 80Hz and 400Hz). This goes on from around 1AM till 8AM. I?m pretty sure it?s the external heat exchanger unit, a box the size of a fridge with a large fan on the front. We feel the LF hum through the ground and building structure, while the 400Hz is acoustic. It?s a bit awkward to ask them about it because they?ve made it very clear that they don?t want to befriend any of the other residents! Are heat pumps really the future the government are wanting us to turn to? I dread to think how it would be if all houses were like that. We moved here to escape the noise of a petrol station opposite us that had 9 such fans running 24/7, in their case, refrigerated food shelves, fridges, and air conditioning etc. Cheers, Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From geoffletch at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 08:25:59 2023 From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 14:25:59 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Spencer Chapman -ex BBC TV designer as I expect many of us will recall- had a heat pump system fitted at his house in Norwich. It emitted mouse exactly as Nick describes. Took him and his lady months to get used to it and at one time they even thought have having it removed. Geoff F On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 13:53, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: > Just wondering if anyone here has any actual experience of heat pumps? > We live in an exceptionally quiet woodland residential area. It?s a > cul-de-sac consisting of 18 detached 4 bedroom houses. One of the houses > about 50metres away from us has recently been gutted and refurbished by its > new residents, and since then we have been hearing a very noticeable low > frequency hum and whining sound (approx 80Hz and 400Hz). This goes on from > around 1AM till 8AM. I?m pretty sure it?s the external heat exchanger unit, > a box the size of a fridge with a large fan on the front. We feel the LF > hum through the ground and building structure, while the 400Hz is acoustic. > It?s a bit awkward to ask them about it because they?ve made it very clear > that they don?t want to befriend any of the other residents! > Are heat pumps really the future the government are wanting us to turn to? > I dread to think how it would be if all houses were like that. We moved > here to escape the noise of a petrol station opposite us that had 9 such > fans running 24/7, in their case, refrigerated food shelves, fridges, and > air conditioning etc. > Cheers, > Nick. > Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoffletch at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 08:26:57 2023 From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 14:26:57 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: NOISE not MOUSE! G On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 14:25, Geoff Fletcher wrote: > Spencer Chapman -ex BBC TV designer as I expect many of us will recall- > had a heat pump system fitted at his house in Norwich. It emitted mouse > exactly as Nick describes. Took him and his lady months to get used to it > and at one time they even thought have having it removed. > Geoff F > > > On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 13:53, Nick Ware via Tech1 > wrote: > >> Just wondering if anyone here has any actual experience of heat pumps? >> We live in an exceptionally quiet woodland residential area. It?s a >> cul-de-sac consisting of 18 detached 4 bedroom houses. One of the houses >> about 50metres away from us has recently been gutted and refurbished by its >> new residents, and since then we have been hearing a very noticeable low >> frequency hum and whining sound (approx 80Hz and 400Hz). This goes on from >> around 1AM till 8AM. I?m pretty sure it?s the external heat exchanger unit, >> a box the size of a fridge with a large fan on the front. We feel the LF >> hum through the ground and building structure, while the 400Hz is acoustic. >> It?s a bit awkward to ask them about it because they?ve made it very clear >> that they don?t want to befriend any of the other residents! >> Are heat pumps really the future the government are wanting us to turn >> to? I dread to think how it would be if all houses were like that. We moved >> here to escape the noise of a petrol station opposite us that had 9 such >> fans running 24/7, in their case, refrigerated food shelves, fridges, and >> air conditioning etc. >> Cheers, >> Nick. >> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 08:27:32 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 14:27:32 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not got any direct experience, no. But did wonder, since the air source ones, mounted externally, do seem similar to those noisy AC units you see everywhere. If the device produces vibration, you'd expect it to have suitable mountings. Can you see the unit and note the make? May be possible to find all the specs on the maker's site. To help decide if the noise in intrinsic, or poor installation. But. I'd expect a heat pump to also run all day and maybe most of the night. They are generally slower to warm up the house than a gas etc boiler. On 22/02/2023 13:53, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: > Just wondering if anyone here has any actual experience of heat pumps? > We live in an exceptionally quiet woodland residential area. It?s a cul-de-sac consisting of 18 detached 4 bedroom houses. One of the houses about 50metres away from us has recently been gutted and refurbished by its new residents, and since then we have been hearing a very noticeable low frequency hum and whining sound (approx 80Hz and 400Hz). This goes on from around 1AM till 8AM. I?m pretty sure it?s the external heat exchanger unit, a box the size of a fridge with a large fan on the front. We feel the LF hum through the ground and building structure, while the 400Hz is acoustic. It?s a bit awkward to ask them about it because they?ve made it very clear that they don?t want to befriend any of the other residents! > Are heat pumps really the future the government are wanting us to turn to? I dread to think how it would be if all houses were like that. We moved here to escape the noise of a petrol station opposite us that had 9 such fans running 24/7, in their case, refrigerated food shelves, fridges, and air conditioning etc. > Cheers, > Nick. > Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Wed Feb 22 09:34:18 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 15:34:18 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte> References: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte> Message-ID: <3EFDCD18218F44F696CE8B418904721B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Looks like the Telegraph are on the case as well Mike:- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/heatpump-climate-change-net-zero/ Dave Newbitt. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Jordan via Tech1 Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 2:25 PM To: Nick Ware ; tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Heat pumps Hey Nick have you been reading the BBC News page? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57159056 Mike -----Original Message----- From: Nick Ware via Tech1 Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 1:53 PM To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps Just wondering if anyone here has any actual experience of heat pumps? We live in an exceptionally quiet woodland residential area. It?s a cul-de-sac consisting of 18 detached 4 bedroom houses. One of the houses about 50metres away from us has recently been gutted and refurbished by its new residents, and since then we have been hearing a very noticeable low frequency hum and whining sound (approx 80Hz and 400Hz). This goes on from around 1AM till 8AM. I?m pretty sure it?s the external heat exchanger unit, a box the size of a fridge with a large fan on the front. We feel the LF hum through the ground and building structure, while the 400Hz is acoustic. It?s a bit awkward to ask them about it because they?ve made it very clear that they don?t want to befriend any of the other residents! Are heat pumps really the future the government are wanting us to turn to? I dread to think how it would be if all houses were like that. We moved here to escape the noise of a petrol station opposite us that had 9 such fans running 24/7, in their case, refrigerated food shelves, fridges, and air conditioning etc. Cheers, Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Wed Feb 22 09:58:05 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 15:58:05 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a7f9072-c046-0ea1-9944-d78afdb85244@chriswoolf.co.uk> 80Hz is a relatively easy frequency to isolate from ground transmission. There are a host of bouncy things made for exactly that purpose. I suspect the unit is bolted directly to a concrete base with no attempt to isolate. Likewise 400 Hz should be quite easy to attenuate acoustically - the wavelength is 85cm, so a hedge positioned close should cut the level significantly. There are also acoustic covers for these devices. UK government guidance is 45dBA @ 1m, so if the level is a lot higher, you might have a legal argument for some noise abatement. The noise levels for these devices are usually specified as 50-60dB - not a lot of use, since they don't specify a suffix or distance, but we can probably guess at dBA. That equates to what is fairly typical outdoors in a town or city, but it would be audible in quiet woodland - likely to be in the 30dBA range. My ground source pump sits in a plant room and is a noisier device than the air source stuff, but one thick wall, and a little care, drops the level in my lab area to ~32dBA (actually better than that since I pay more attention to the LF end of things). As a comparison most blown oil boilers are a lot noisier than an air source device. There isn't really any need for high noise levels? - just what manufacturers currently feel they can get away with. We're talking commerce, rather than physics here. Chris Woolf On 22/02/2023 14:25, Geoff Fletcher via Tech1 wrote: > Spencer Chapman -ex BBC TV designer as I expect many of us will > recall- had a heat pump system fitted at his house in Norwich. It > emitted mouse exactly as Nick describes. Took him and his lady months > to get used to it and at one time they even thought have having it > removed. > Geoff F > > > On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 13:53, Nick Ware via Tech1 > wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone here has any actual experience of heat pumps? > We live in an exceptionally quiet woodland residential area. It?s > a cul-de-sac consisting of 18 detached 4 bedroom houses. One of > the houses about 50metres away from us has recently been gutted > and refurbished by its new residents, and since then we have been > hearing a very noticeable low frequency hum and whining sound > (approx 80Hz and 400Hz). This goes on from around 1AM till 8AM. > I?m pretty sure it?s the external heat exchanger unit, a box the > size of a fridge with a large fan on the front. We feel the LF hum > through the ground and building structure, while the 400Hz is > acoustic. It?s a bit awkward to ask them about it because they?ve > made it very clear that they don?t want to befriend any of the > other residents! > Are heat pumps really the future the government are wanting us to > turn to? I dread to think how it would be if all houses were like > that. We moved here to escape the noise of a petrol station > opposite us that had 9 such fans running 24/7, in their case, > refrigerated food shelves, fridges, and air conditioning etc. > Cheers, > Nick. > Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Wed Feb 22 10:00:00 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 16:00:00 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <3EFDCD18218F44F696CE8B418904721B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> References: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte> <3EFDCD18218F44F696CE8B418904721B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Message-ID: <51a7ad23-f1fe-310f-55b7-453cfe714762@chriswoolf.co.uk> On 22/02/2023 15:34, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > Looks like the Telegraph are on the case as well Mike:- > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/heatpump-climate-change-net-zero/ > Not the most reliable source of technical information;} Chris Woolf From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Wed Feb 22 10:18:48 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 16:18:48 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <51a7ad23-f1fe-310f-55b7-453cfe714762@chriswoolf.co.uk> References: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte><3EFDCD18218F44F696CE8B418904721B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> <51a7ad23-f1fe-310f-55b7-453cfe714762@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: Agreed! I didn't write in support of the contention. Neither do I read the Telegraph but, just as with the Daily Express, MSN news pushes numerous of their headlines at one. Dave Newbitt. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Woolf via Tech1 Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 4:00 PM To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Heat pumps On 22/02/2023 15:34, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > Looks like the Telegraph are on the case as well Mike:- > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/heatpump-climate-change-net-zero/ Not the most reliable source of technical information;} Chris Woolf -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From graeme.wall at icloud.com Wed Feb 22 10:21:27 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 16:21:27 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte> <3EFDCD18218F44F696CE8B418904721B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> <51a7ad23-f1fe-310f-55b7-453cfe714762@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: What it does allude to, though dismissively, is the fact that most British housing is appallingly badly insulated. Something the governent half-heartedly addresses every so often. > On 22 Feb 2023, at 16:18, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: > > Agreed! I didn't write in support of the contention. Neither do I read the Telegraph but, just as with the Daily Express, MSN news pushes numerous of their headlines at one. > > Dave Newbitt. > > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Woolf via Tech1 > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 4:00 PM > To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > Subject: Re: [Tech1] Heat pumps > > > On 22/02/2023 15:34, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >> Looks like the Telegraph are on the case as well Mike:- >> >> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/heatpump-climate-change-net-zero/ > > > Not the most reliable source of technical information;} > > Chris Woolf > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 10:24:09 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 16:24:09 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <8a7f9072-c046-0ea1-9944-d78afdb85244@chriswoolf.co.uk> References: <8a7f9072-c046-0ea1-9944-d78afdb85244@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: <7ad4309c-488c-0091-4364-98b7f181a45f@gmail.com> The fan on my condensing gas boiler failed recently. The boiler modulates from (spec) 4.8 to 35kw and the fan speed sort of tracks the output. The noise from the old fan was simply air being drawn in, so near silent. The new one also produces a whine, pitch dependant on speed. But will put up with it until the warmer weather. On 22/02/2023 15:58, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: > 80Hz is a relatively easy frequency to isolate from ground transmission. > There are a host of bouncy things made for exactly that purpose. I > suspect the unit is bolted directly to a concrete base with no attempt > to isolate. > > Likewise 400 Hz should be quite easy to attenuate acoustically - the > wavelength is 85cm, so a hedge positioned close should cut the level > significantly. There are also acoustic covers for these devices. UK > government guidance is 45dBA @ 1m, so if the level is a lot higher, you > might have a legal argument for some noise abatement. > > The noise levels for these devices are usually specified as 50-60dB - > not a lot of use, since they don't specify a suffix or distance, but we > can probably guess at dBA. That equates to what is fairly typical > outdoors in a town or city, but it would be audible in quiet woodland - > likely to be in the 30dBA range. My ground source pump sits in a plant > room and is a noisier device than the air source stuff, but one thick > wall, and a little care, drops the level in my lab area to ~32dBA > (actually better than that since I pay more attention to the LF end of > things). > > As a comparison most blown oil boilers are a lot noisier than an air > source device. There isn't really any need for high noise levels? - just > what manufacturers currently feel they can get away with. We're talking > commerce, rather than physics here. > > Chris Woolf > > > On 22/02/2023 14:25, Geoff Fletcher via Tech1 wrote: >> Spencer Chapman -ex BBC TV designer as I expect many of us will >> recall- had a heat pump system fitted at his house in Norwich. It >> emitted mouse exactly as Nick describes. Took him and his lady months >> to get used to it and at one time they even thought have having it >> removed. >> Geoff F >> >> >> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 13:53, Nick Ware via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> Just wondering if anyone here has any actual experience of heat pumps? >> We live in an exceptionally quiet woodland residential area. It?s >> a cul-de-sac consisting of 18 detached 4 bedroom houses. One of >> the houses about 50metres away from us has recently been gutted >> and refurbished by its new residents, and since then we have been >> hearing a very noticeable low frequency hum and whining sound >> (approx 80Hz and 400Hz). This goes on from around 1AM till 8AM. >> I?m pretty sure it?s the external heat exchanger unit, a box the >> size of a fridge with a large fan on the front. We feel the LF hum >> through the ground and building structure, while the 400Hz is >> acoustic. It?s a bit awkward to ask them about it because they?ve >> made it very clear that they don?t want to befriend any of the >> other residents! >> Are heat pumps really the future the government are wanting us to >> turn to? I dread to think how it would be if all houses were like >> that. We moved here to escape the noise of a petrol station >> opposite us that had 9 such fans running 24/7, in their case, >> refrigerated food shelves, fridges, and air conditioning etc. >> Cheers, >> Nick. >> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> > From alanaudio at me.com Wed Feb 22 11:10:45 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 17:10:45 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <8a7f9072-c046-0ea1-9944-d78afdb85244@chriswoolf.co.uk> References: <8a7f9072-c046-0ea1-9944-d78afdb85244@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: <56C8910E-5140-4791-8F81-326DC3FF6084@me.com> > On 22 Feb 2023, at 15:58, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: > > As a comparison most blown oil boilers are a lot noisier than an air source device. You?re dead right there. In our village we have no gas supply. Most people have oil burners and many of us have Worcester exterior boilers which are designed to be situated outside. They are a little under 100cm cube. They are noisier than I would like and you can hear the boiler running from a dozen or two metres away, but it?s not particularly tuned, more like white noise, mostly created by a fan blowing air through the exhaust pipe. In reality it?s not much of a problem. Part of that is that there isn?t any significant LF or structural vibration. But I reckon that the main reason why it?s not much of a problem is that the duty cycle of the boiler means it?s only running for the lesser part of the time. Furthermore, the time when it needs to work hardest is in cold weather, when we stay indoors and keep the windows closed. As it happens, I like to keep the bedroom window open a little and it?s close to the boiler, but we rarely notice the boiler running. One problem with heat exchangers is that they run much more continuously and if they are audible, they are going to be annoying. I agree with Chris, the structural noise transmission should be minimised by design of the unit, or as part of the installation. It?s a frequency which is straightforward to deal with. Higher frequencies can be attenuated by baffles and obstructions. Most of the principles of dealing with noises like this have been refined over the last few decades and allows massive power generators on outside broadcasts to be surprisingly quiet, but if you open the soundproof door while it?s running, you need ear defenders. The biggest challenge might be finding a way to persuade that neighbour to spend money to improve other people?s lives. Alan From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Wed Feb 22 11:20:05 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 17:20:05 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte> <3EFDCD18218F44F696CE8B418904721B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> <51a7ad23-f1fe-310f-55b7-453cfe714762@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: <00aedb26-4398-d09f-5bea-8b1bf2161ba9@chriswoolf.co.uk> Ego te absolvo! There is a terrible problem with the media taking stupid potshots at every new technology, and failing to criticise the real culprits - recent governments' appalling attitude to energy use, insulation of homes and the generally abysmal quality of new housing stock. Heat pumps have been in wide use around the world for ages, and are unarguably the only method of heating (and cooling) that has any future, given efficiency in excess of 100%. Not for nothing do electric car manufacturers use mini heat pumps for keeping the insides comfortable, without wasting precious battery reserves. Particularly, the right-wing media has knocked almost everything over the years - seat-belts, lead-free petrol, the replacement of incandescent light bulbs - with the same wilful inability to weed out truth from amusing fiction. We have become so used to the "funny" lies of Boris et al, with bent bananas, frozen kippers, and everything he came up with about Brexit (Whoops - sorry Bernie), that the public has become scarcely able to sift out the bollocks from the science. We condemn Putin for blinding the Russians with propaganda, but we come closer than we would like to admit with much of our "news". Chris Woolf On 22/02/2023 16:18, David Newbitt wrote: > Agreed! I didn't write in support of the contention. Neither do I read > the Telegraph but, just as with the Daily Express, MSN news pushes > numerous of their headlines at one. > > Dave Newbitt. > > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Woolf via Tech1 > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 4:00 PM > To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > Subject: Re: [Tech1] Heat pumps > > > On 22/02/2023 15:34, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >> Looks like the Telegraph are on the case as well Mike:- >> >> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/heatpump-climate-change-net-zero/ >> > > > Not the most reliable source of technical information;} > > Chris Woolf > > > From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Wed Feb 22 11:23:17 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 17:23:17 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte> <3EFDCD18218F44F696CE8B418904721B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> <51a7ad23-f1fe-310f-55b7-453cfe714762@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: The issue of insulation is, as Graeme says, of huge significance and raises a moral/ethical issue my wife and I discuss from time to time. With finite resources to see us through old age, consideration of investment in measures dealing with heat loss, energy source etc. soon runs one up against the question of whether there is any danger of excessive curtailment of enjoyment of life resulting. We both feel a moral obligation to consider the environment, the future of the planet, the world young people are having to face a future in but in all honesty recognise an element of selfishness in the decisions we arrive at. Last year we had the entire roof (bar the structural timbering) replaced with the primary motivation of a major improvement to the insulation. Working from inside the loft space was impossible so we had to opt for rigid insulation installed from above. Hugely costly and there's no way we will see our money back in reduced bills. Do we now consider cavity insulation heat pumps etc? Well, no - we simply can't afford them. Similar arguments apply to the idea of moving to electric cars. Dave Newbitt. -----Original Message----- From: Graeme Wall Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 4:21 PM To: David Newbitt Cc: Chris Woolf ; Tech ops Subject: Re: [Tech1] Heat pumps What it does allude to, though dismissively, is the fact that most British housing is appallingly badly insulated. Something the governent half-heartedly addresses every so often. > On 22 Feb 2023, at 16:18, David Newbitt via Tech1 > wrote: > > Agreed! I didn't write in support of the contention. Neither do I read the > Telegraph but, just as with the Daily Express, MSN news pushes numerous of > their headlines at one. > > Dave Newbitt. > > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Woolf via Tech1 > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 4:00 PM > To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > Subject: Re: [Tech1] Heat pumps > > > On 22/02/2023 15:34, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >> Looks like the Telegraph are on the case as well Mike:- >> >> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/heatpump-climate-change-net-zero/ > > > Not the most reliable source of technical information;} > > Chris Woolf > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From alanaudio at me.com Wed Feb 22 13:04:17 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 19:04:17 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <00aedb26-4398-d09f-5bea-8b1bf2161ba9@chriswoolf.co.uk> References: <00aedb26-4398-d09f-5bea-8b1bf2161ba9@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: I would add wood burners to that list of newspaper-hyped scare stories. Obviously there is little justification for using a wood burner within an already polluted city where gas and electricity are readily available and reliable, but we rely on the wood burner as the primary way of heating our living room every day. The oil burner provides hot water and low level background heating. There is no gas supply to our village. Obviously we are keen to minimise the use of fossil fuels such as oil. Quite a lot of the wood we burn is trimmed from trees in the garden, which is seasoned for two years or more before being brought in. One other important advantage of the wood burner is that it doesn?t need electricity to work. If there is a power cut ( an all too regular feature here ), we can still keep warm and also cook food or boil water on it. I?ve asked my German relatives if there is a fuss about wood burners in Germany and their answer was ?Why would there be? Loads of people use them and always have done?. My sister in law has lived in Canada and Denmark. Wood burners are extensively used there and there seems to be no campaign against them there either. Of all the possible government initiatives, the one I would most welcome is improved insulation. Most of our village is designated as a conservation area and it?s very difficult to get permission to upgrade the thermal performance of doors and windows, even if it?s done in a manner which is sympathetic with the look of what?s already here. A little bit of flexibility would make the house use rather less energy to keep it warm and would keep that advantage indefinitely. All the appliances we have bought in the last decade have been amongst the most energy efficient types available at the time. It?s the house itself which needs to be more efficient. Alan > On 22 Feb 2023, at 17:20, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Ego te absolvo! > > There is a terrible problem with the media taking stupid potshots at every new technology, and failing to criticise the real culprits - recent governments' appalling attitude to energy use, insulation of homes and the generally abysmal quality of new housing stock. Heat pumps have been in wide use around the world for ages, and are unarguably the only method of heating (and cooling) that has any future, given efficiency in excess of 100%. Not for nothing do electric car manufacturers use mini heat pumps for keeping the insides comfortable, without wasting precious battery reserves. > > Particularly, the right-wing media has knocked almost everything over the years - seat-belts, lead-free petrol, the replacement of incandescent light bulbs - with the same wilful inability to weed out truth from amusing fiction. We have become so used to the "funny" lies of Boris et al, with bent bananas, frozen kippers, and everything he came up with about Brexit (Whoops - sorry Bernie), that the public has become scarcely able to sift out the bollocks from the science. We condemn Putin for blinding the Russians with propaganda, but we come closer than we would like to admit with much of our "news". > > Chris Woolf > > >> On 22/02/2023 16:18, David Newbitt wrote: >> Agreed! I didn't write in support of the contention. Neither do I read the Telegraph but, just as with the Daily Express, MSN news pushes numerous of their headlines at one. >> >> Dave Newbitt. >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Woolf via Tech1 >> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 4:00 PM >> To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Heat pumps >> >> >>> On 22/02/2023 15:34, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >>> Looks like the Telegraph are on the case as well Mike:- >>> >>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/heatpump-climate-change-net-zero/ >> >> >> Not the most reliable source of technical information;} >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> >> > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From mibridge at mac.com Wed Feb 22 15:28:57 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 21:28:57 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <852A4AEF-29D6-4B9E-9412-EF1F8110C639@mac.com> For a moment, Chris, I misread your apology for a potentially political observation as being a suggestion that we rename Brexit as Bernie! On reflection I think there might be some merit in that thought, (or not, as the case may be!) Mike G > On 22 Feb 2023, at 19:04, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > > ?I would add wood burners to that list of newspaper-hyped scare stories. > > Obviously there is little justification for using a wood burner within an already polluted city where gas and electricity are readily available and reliable, but we rely on the wood burner as the primary way of heating our living room every day. The oil burner provides hot water and low level background heating. > > There is no gas supply to our village. Obviously we are keen to minimise the use of fossil fuels such as oil. Quite a lot of the wood we burn is trimmed from trees in the garden, which is seasoned for two years or more before being brought in. > > One other important advantage of the wood burner is that it doesn?t need electricity to work. If there is a power cut ( an all too regular feature here ), we can still keep warm and also cook food or boil water on it. > > I?ve asked my German relatives if there is a fuss about wood burners in Germany and their answer was ?Why would there be? Loads of people use them and always have done?. My sister in law has lived in Canada and Denmark. Wood burners are extensively used there and there seems to be no campaign against them there either. > > Of all the possible government initiatives, the one I would most welcome is improved insulation. Most of our village is designated as a conservation area and it?s very difficult to get permission to upgrade the thermal performance of doors and windows, even if it?s done in a manner which is sympathetic with the look of what?s already here. A little bit of flexibility would make the house use rather less energy to keep it warm and would keep that advantage indefinitely. All the appliances we have bought in the last decade have been amongst the most energy efficient types available at the time. It?s the house itself which needs to be more efficient. > > Alan > >> On 22 Feb 2023, at 17:20, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ?Ego te absolvo! >> >> There is a terrible problem with the media taking stupid potshots at every new technology, and failing to criticise the real culprits - recent governments' appalling attitude to energy use, insulation of homes and the generally abysmal quality of new housing stock. Heat pumps have been in wide use around the world for ages, and are unarguably the only method of heating (and cooling) that has any future, given efficiency in excess of 100%. Not for nothing do electric car manufacturers use mini heat pumps for keeping the insides comfortable, without wasting precious battery reserves. >> >> Particularly, the right-wing media has knocked almost everything over the years - seat-belts, lead-free petrol, the replacement of incandescent light bulbs - with the same wilful inability to weed out truth from amusing fiction. We have become so used to the "funny" lies of Boris et al, with bent bananas, frozen kippers, and everything he came up with about Brexit (Whoops - sorry Bernie), that the public has become scarcely able to sift out the bollocks from the science. We condemn Putin for blinding the Russians with propaganda, but we come closer than we would like to admit with much of our "news". >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> >>>> On 22/02/2023 16:18, David Newbitt wrote: >>> Agreed! I didn't write in support of the contention. Neither do I read the Telegraph but, just as with the Daily Express, MSN news pushes numerous of their headlines at one. >>> >>> Dave Newbitt. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Woolf via Tech1 >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 4:00 PM >>> To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Heat pumps >>> >>> >>>> On 22/02/2023 15:34, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: >>>> Looks like the Telegraph are on the case as well Mike:- >>>> >>>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/22/heatpump-climate-change-net-zero/ >>> >>> >>> Not the most reliable source of technical information;} >>> >>> Chris Woolf >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From pat.heigham at amps.net Thu Feb 23 00:03:47 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 06:03:47 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: <00aedb26-4398-d09f-5bea-8b1bf2161ba9@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: For a moment, I was hopeful that the mention of wood burners was going to lead to an appreciation of early American steam locomotives as depicted in Buster Keaton's "The General"! Sadly not, but I do enjoy staying with two sets of friends who have log stoves in their sitting rooms. One hasn't mentioned the psychological effect of seeing the cheerful flames behind the glass - makes one feel warm just looking at it! Luckily, in both cases, the source of wood comes from thinning operations of trees on their land, and both are situated in open country. Thanks to the generosity of our Government, this year I received the enhanced Winter Fuel Allowance and also the energy rebate that was automatically paid, so 'selfishly' I have no compunction in winding up my gas-fired central heating to keep warm. I wear an alarm wrist band, as I live alone, & the wi-fi base station monitors the room temperature and would issue an alert to my responders, should it fall below a certain setting. I suppose there is an advantage in growing old! Keep cheerful and warm! Pat On 22/02/2023 19:04, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > I would add wood burners to that list of newspaper-hyped scare stories. > > Obviously there is little justification for using a wood burner within an already polluted city where gas and electricity are readily available and reliable, but we rely on the wood burner as the primary way of heating our living room every day. The oil burner provides hot water and low level background heating. > > There is no gas supply to our village. Obviously we are keen to minimise the use of fossil fuels such as oil. Quite a lot of the wood we burn is trimmed from trees in the garden, which is seasoned for two years or more before being brought in. > > One other important advantage of the wood burner is that it doesn?t need electricity to work. If there is a power cut ( an all too regular feature here ), we can still keep warm and also cook food or boil water on it. > > I?ve asked my German relatives if there is a fuss about wood burners in Germany and their answer was ?Why would there be? Loads of people use them and always have done?. My sister in law has lived in Canada and Denmark. Wood burners are extensively used there and there seems to be no campaign against them there either. > > Of all the possible government initiatives, the one I would most welcome is improved insulation. Most of our village is designated as a conservation area and it?s very difficult to get permission to upgrade the thermal performance of doors and windows, even if it?s done in a manner which is sympathetic with the look of what?s already here. > Alan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Thu Feb 23 04:04:43 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:04:43 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Codd bottles Message-ID: Our garden wall and hedge has been in place for centuries. We live more or less opposite the village pub, so it?s not surprising that whenever we did around in the base of the hedge, we find stuff discarded from a long time ago. We often find broken clay pipes, or bits of Codd bottles from Victorian times. It?s relatively rare to find complete bottles because boys used to smash them in order to get the glass marble which was used to seal the neck and keep the carbonated drink pressurised. Here?s a picture of some fragments which appeared last week. The glass is very much thicker than that used for modern bottles. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42480 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- That wasn?t at all unusual and I?m sure many of you find similar stuff in your gardens, but what did surprise me was that Janet found brand new Codd bottles in Morrisons, containing a Japanese fizzy drink. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18009 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Alan From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 04:29:04 2023 From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:29:04 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: <00aedb26-4398-d09f-5bea-8b1bf2161ba9@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> Hi all - especially Pat On 23/02/2023 06:03, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > Buster Keaton's "The General" Doing his should keep you warm... It is a GIF (as attached)? - and one of the best GIFs I have seen .... file:///H:/RSME/The%20General%20handcart.gif On 23/02/2023 06:03, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: wood burners ... an appreciation of early American steam locomotives as depicted in Buster Keaton's "The General" Well, but of course... That "Balloon" smokestack (chimney) was to catch the sparks from the wood burning fire - so do modern households with wood burners and forced airflow need spark arresters? Stephenson's Valve gear with? "launch" type expansion links. Bar frames - typical American loco build technique - the frame has greater flexibility on badly or lightly laid track. Bell and headlight - all British locomotives visiting the USA had to be fitted with a bell and a headlight - here is King George V proudly wearing the bell as a souvenir.. Better stop here !!! Best regards, Alec -- ======= Alec Bray alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Mob: 07789 561 346 Tel: 0118 981 7502 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The General handcart.gif Type: image/gif Size: 736004 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AnB0IgxaR0jMCZaL.png Type: image/png Size: 168494 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hlcrc3jlB3ugaPZR.png Type: image/png Size: 396595 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The General handcart.gif Type: image/gif Size: 736004 bytes Desc: not available URL: From graeme.wall at icloud.com Thu Feb 23 04:48:30 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:48:30 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> References: <00aedb26-4398-d09f-5bea-8b1bf2161ba9@chriswoolf.co.uk> <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5AD12ED5-B602-4F8E-BB34-85D6FABC239F@icloud.com> Severn Lamb in Warwickshire still build American style steam locomotives, though no longer wood-burning, for theme parks around the world, especially the Disneyland parks. > On 23 Feb 2023, at 10:29, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: > > Hi all - especially Pat > On 23/02/2023 06:03, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >> Buster Keaton's "The General" > > Doing his should keep you warm... > It is a GIF (as attached) - and one of the best GIFs I have seen .... > > On 23/02/2023 06:03, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > wood burners ... an appreciation of early American steam locomotives as depicted in Buster Keaton's "The General" > Well, but of course... > > That "Balloon" smokestack (chimney) was to catch the sparks from the wood burning fire - so do modern households with wood burners and forced airflow need spark arresters? > Stephenson's Valve gear with "launch" type expansion links. > Bar frames - typical American loco build technique - the frame has greater flexibility on badly or lightly laid track. > Bell and headlight - all British locomotives visiting the USA had to be fitted with a bell and a headlight - here is King George V proudly wearing the bell as a souvenir.. > > > Better stop here !!! > Best regards, > Alec > > > > > -- > ======= > > Alec Bray > > alec.bray.2 at gmail.com > Mob: 07789 561 346 > Tel: 0118 981 7502 > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Thu Feb 23 04:56:39 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:56:39 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> References: <00aedb26-4398-d09f-5bea-8b1bf2161ba9@chriswoolf.co.uk> <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <737D5E67F37447958B0C88E60CD461C5@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Well done Alec! King George V ? my favourite steam loco. Saw her countless times. Here she is on the move. Bell removed for safety in transit Dave Newbitt. From: Alec Bray via Tech1 Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2023 10:29 AM To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Heat pumps Bell and headlight - all British locomotives visiting the USA had to be fitted with a bell and a headlight - here is King George V proudly wearing the bell as a souvenir.. Better stop here !!! Best regards, Alec alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Mob: 07789 561 346 Tel: 0118 981 7502 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: King%20George%20V%20bell%20removed%20for%20safety%20in%20transit.[3].jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 188383 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6000%20Commemoration%20Bell[3].jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 135971 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hlcrc3jlB3ugaPZR.png Type: image/png Size: 396595 bytes Desc: not available URL: From graeme.wall at icloud.com Thu Feb 23 04:57:55 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:55 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Codd bottles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?ve a Codd bottle, complete with marble, that I dug up in our garden in Southampton. We were a long way from the nearest pub! It?s got a slight chip out of the base but otherwise intact. Originally made for A E Cahdler & Co, Portswood Road, Southampton. Nicely moulded into the glass. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Codd bottle.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 366001 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- > On 23 Feb 2023, at 10:04, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > > Our garden wall and hedge has been in place for centuries. We live more or less opposite the village pub, so it?s not surprising that whenever we did around in the base of the hedge, we find stuff discarded from a long time ago. We often find broken clay pipes, or bits of Codd bottles from Victorian times. It?s relatively rare to find complete bottles because boys used to smash them in order to get the glass marble which was used to seal the neck and keep the carbonated drink pressurised. > > Here?s a picture of some fragments which appeared last week. The glass is very much thicker than that used for modern bottles. > > > > That wasn?t at all unusual and I?m sure many of you find similar stuff in your gardens, but what did surprise me was that Janet found brand new Codd bottles in Morrisons, containing a Japanese fizzy drink. > > > > Alan-- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From graeme.wall at icloud.com Thu Feb 23 04:57:55 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:57:55 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Codd bottles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?ve a Codd bottle, complete with marble, that I dug up in our garden in Southampton. We were a long way from the nearest pub! It?s got a slight chip out of the base but otherwise intact. Originally made for A E Cahdler & Co, Portswood Road, Southampton. Nicely moulded into the glass. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Codd bottle.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 366001 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- > On 23 Feb 2023, at 10:04, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > > Our garden wall and hedge has been in place for centuries. We live more or less opposite the village pub, so it?s not surprising that whenever we did around in the base of the hedge, we find stuff discarded from a long time ago. We often find broken clay pipes, or bits of Codd bottles from Victorian times. It?s relatively rare to find complete bottles because boys used to smash them in order to get the glass marble which was used to seal the neck and keep the carbonated drink pressurised. > > Here?s a picture of some fragments which appeared last week. The glass is very much thicker than that used for modern bottles. > > > > That wasn?t at all unusual and I?m sure many of you find similar stuff in your gardens, but what did surprise me was that Janet found brand new Codd bottles in Morrisons, containing a Japanese fizzy drink. > > > > Alan-- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Thu Feb 23 04:59:13 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:59:13 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: <00aedb26-4398-d09f-5bea-8b1bf2161ba9@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: <146d9d68-60ca-a843-cda2-61576ef013f5@chriswoolf.co.uk> On 22/02/2023 19:04, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > Of all the possible government initiatives, the one I would most welcome is improved insulation. Most of our village is designated as a conservation area and it?s very difficult to get permission to upgrade the thermal performance of doors and windows, even if it?s done in a manner which is sympathetic with the look of what?s already here. For long time we have had governments that have forgotten their purpose. The original idea of them was to deal with the greater problems of the country that are beyond individuals to manage for themselves. As an example, the recent (last decade or so) attempts to help with improving thermal efficiency in houses have been expensive, abject failures. Much of the reason for that is that the schemes have, from the very start, ignored the long-term reason for them, and sought to turn them into income streams. I can't even remember the names of all of them, but they have included trying (and failing) to make pseudo-consultants to adjudicate on whether you could take part in the schemes, only allowing companies that paid government for the honour to take part in doing the work, creating an army of "inspectors" to rate your house for efficiency before you sold it (except that they don't even bother to inspect it any longer, so the rating means nothing). Even the vaguely sensible scheme of handing out free compact-fluorescent light bulbs was allowed to go adrift, because they did it through the power companies. They, of course, bought the cheapest versions they could, and thus gave the lamps a terrible reputation from the start. These governments have also got into the habit of ruling by prevention - we are prevented from doing things, rather than encouraged to do better. So the conservation areas and listed buildings have all sorts of restrictions placed on them, making them economically unattractive, instead of having incentives for keeping them lovely, and making everyone /want/ to have a gorgeous house in a gorgeous area. Why are we charged VAT to renew an old, and beautifully built, house but allowed to demolish it and put up a crap one VAT-free? The same goes for so much else - drug use, migrants, alcohol misuse, misogyny, etc - where the only solution is deemed to be to build a higher wall, even though that approach has manifestly failed and more constructive ones are proving successful elsewhere. Grrrr! Chris Woolf > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Thu Feb 23 05:12:36 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:12:36 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> References: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> Message-ID: When we filmed Tripods, there was a scene on a preservation steam railway where a hand cart had to be used by the main actors. The point on the railway line where it was needed to be filmed didn?t offer sensible access by road for the hand cart. The tech gear ( and crew )could be loaded onto a flat bed railway truck and taken there from the station via a diesel shutter from where the scanner was parked, but the hand cart was at a different station and would need to be pumped along the railway to the filming location. The prop guys weren?t at all impressed by the prospect of having to pump the hand cart along a railway for a few miles, but I jumped in and said I?d be happy to do if if anybody would help. Volunteers immediately put their hands up, including Graham Theakstone ( director ), Ralph Wilton ( production manager ) and Dave Innis Edwards ( AFM ) - or it might have been Steve Chilver ( cameraman ) instead of Dave. It sounded like a fun thing to do. After all, how often do you get a chance to play at being Buster Keaton? Alan > On 23 Feb 2023, at 10:29, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: > > ? > Hi all - especially Pat > > On 23/02/2023 06:03, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >> Buster Keaton's "The General" > Doing his should keep you warm... > > It is a GIF (as attached) - and one of the best GIFs I have seen .... > > > > > > On 23/02/2023 06:03, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > wood burners ... an appreciation of early American steam locomotives as depicted in Buster Keaton's "The General" > > Well, but of course... > > > > > > That "Balloon" smokestack (chimney) was to catch the sparks from the wood burning fire - so do modern households with wood burners and forced airflow need spark arresters? > > Stephenson's Valve gear with "launch" type expansion links. > > Bar frames - typical American loco build technique - the frame has greater flexibility on badly or lightly laid track. > > Bell and headlight - all British locomotives visiting the USA had to be fitted with a bell and a headlight - here is King George V proudly wearing the bell as a souvenir.. > > > > > > > > Better stop here !!! > > Best regards, > > Alec > > > > > > > > > > -- > ======= > > Alec Bray > > alec.bray.2 at gmail.com > Mob: 07789 561 346 > Tel: 0118 981 7502 > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: The General handcart.gif Type: image/gif Size: 736004 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nick at nickway.co.uk Thu Feb 23 05:30:38 2023 From: nick at nickway.co.uk (Nick Way) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:30:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tech1] [SPAM?] Re: Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <51a7ad23-f1fe-310f-55b7-453cfe714762@chriswoolf.co.uk> References: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte> <3EFDCD18218F44F696CE8B418904721B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> <51a7ad23-f1fe-310f-55b7-453cfe714762@chriswoolf.co.uk> Message-ID: <1509966285.69931.1677151838278@email.ionos.co.uk> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Thu Feb 23 05:30:37 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:30:37 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Codd bottles Message-ID: Mike Johnson ( OB sound supervisor ) used to live in quite an old house in Twickenham which had been built on the site of an early Victorian rubbish tip. Various intriguing drinks bottles and medicine bottles would magically work their way towards the surface and be revealed when he was doing a bit of gardening. He built up quite a collection of fascinating bottles, but admitted that he knew very little about them. A near neighbour of his was a keen collector of bottles and was impressed that Mike was essentially just picking them up out of his garden. He decided to investigate what might be below his own garden. The way Mike told it, the neighbour dug up his entire garden to a depth of a few feet and never found a single bottle. Alan > On 23 Feb 2023, at 10:58, Graeme Wall wrote: > > ?I?ve a Codd bottle, complete with marble, that I dug up in our garden in Southampton. We were a long way from the nearest pub! It?s got a slight chip out of the base but otherwise intact. Originally made for A E Cahdler & Co, Portswood Road, Southampton. Nicely moulded into the glass. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Codd bottle.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 366001 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- > > >> On 23 Feb 2023, at 10:04, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: >> >> Our garden wall and hedge has been in place for centuries. We live more or less opposite the village pub, so it?s not surprising that whenever we did around in the base of the hedge, we find stuff discarded from a long time ago. We often find broken clay pipes, or bits of Codd bottles from Victorian times. It?s relatively rare to find complete bottles because boys used to smash them in order to get the glass marble which was used to seal the neck and keep the carbonated drink pressurised. >> >> Here?s a picture of some fragments which appeared last week. The glass is very much thicker than that used for modern bottles. >> >> >> >> That wasn?t at all unusual and I?m sure many of you find similar stuff in your gardens, but what did surprise me was that Janet found brand new Codd bottles in Morrisons, containing a Japanese fizzy drink. >> >> >> >> Alan-- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > ? > Graeme Wall > > From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Thu Feb 23 05:46:18 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:46:18 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] [SPAM?] Re: Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <1509966285.69931.1677151838278@email.ionos.co.uk> References: <23395CDA81554E82A1775236DEF0A760@Gigabyte> <3EFDCD18218F44F696CE8B418904721B@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> <51a7ad23-f1fe-310f-55b7-453cfe714762@chriswoolf.co.uk> <1509966285.69931.1677151838278@email.ionos.co.uk> Message-ID: <8880dba1-c545-596f-4112-c8509fd5c2db@chriswoolf.co.uk> On 23/02/2023 11:30, Nick Way wrote: > I was going to read this informative article, but they wanted me to > sign up. No! > Indeed! Newspaper as imparter of information, or private income stream? I was always taken by the tram system in Amsterdam during IBC (when I used to attend). They weren't really bothered about taking fares - and actually offered free tickets via the IBC - because they could see that it was more important to move people around sensibly by public transport. The same with the German railways and their recent one (low) price fare - understanding that the purpose of public transport is... to transport the? public - not make it so expensive and poor quality that it becomes better to use the environmentally unfriendly car. Chris Woolf From pat.heigham at amps.net Thu Feb 23 08:09:29 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:09:29 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning Message-ID: <23ff7572-07ff-bfbe-3cd9-ec172c6ac099@amps.net> Oh Dear, Oh Dear! Pat?s in a mood again!! What is wrong with this country? Cost of living rises ? I?m not surprised. I frequently shop at an M & S Simply Food outlet in a local service station. Yes their food is expensive and today I had forgotten a carrier bag, so was charged 30p for one. Plastic bags used to be rung up at 5p, then it went to 10p ? but 30p? Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong column, forename where the surname should be, and the polling station has changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports hall, much further away. Postal vote from now on, I think. A sweet lass, professional singer, gave me a gift for my 80^th of a goodie bag full of delicious chocolate things. I think she collected it from a European engagement. One component was French Florentines ? a scrumptious confection of nuts, nougat, & chocolate. I ordered some more from the manufacturer in France, although the website and order form was in French. The credit card was charged - very quickly(!) but nothing arrived. Eventually a letter from Parcelforce, saying the driver couldn?t find my address ? rubbish, other couriers and utilities service engineers don?t have any trouble. Their helpline produced an interminable menu. A re-delivery was booked and the driver complained that there was no-one at home ? rubbish again, I had stayed in all day. A third attempted delivery was successful, but the driver beat a hasty retreat before I could inform him that that was where I lived. I did discover that he had been the previous courier. And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a new service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via internet. Two new handsets arrived, which did not work on my existing router, until I realised that I had been sent one for Halo 3 some time ago. (I thought HALO was an SAS parachute infiltration manoeuvre). So that works, but there is no way of transferring an existing contact list to the new handsets, although it is possible to plug in my old phones to the router. Otherwise it?s a long process to re-type everything, and there is not enough time to do each one, before the handset gets bored and shuts down, so you have to start again. Two of my friends, and a neighbour have succumbed to Covid, just recently, my Rheumatology Doc is trying to limit me to _one_ bottle of wine per week ? I ask you! Thus I?m losing the will to live ? but I might hold on until the chocolates arrive from France! Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Thu Feb 23 09:00:25 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:00:25 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> References: <00aedb26-4398-d09f-5bea-8b1bf2161ba9@chriswoolf.co.uk> <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lovely, thank you, Alec. I've always wanted to play with a handthingy - see Alan's posting.... 'The General' is one of my favourite films, I managed to acquire a 16mm print of a Laurel & Hardy, but waited until The General was available on Bluray. There's a fascinating doco on how some of the tracking shots were achieved. Camera was strapped to the tender of another engine running on a parallel track. ?A few railway stories attached. Talking of headlights, Alec, I spent two years, at the age of 7 in Singapore - my father was REME and posted there after the war. He sometimes had to mount armed guard on the night train from Singapore to Kuala Lumpur. The loco had two flat trucks in front, at the very end of which were two white discs upon which the headlamp was trained. If the discs suddenly disappeared, it meant that bandits hiding in the jungle were attempting to derail the train, by pulling up the track. And another: One evening (or early morning, about 2 a.m.!) I was wending my way back to the hotel after a good night out in Zagreb, in the former Yugoslavia where we were based. My route passed under the railway bridge, close to the train station. As I approached, I could hear the quiet tolling of a train bell, and on looking up, I could see a magnificent steam engine pulling in to the station. To my delight, the carriage boards read: ?Orient Express Paris-Simplon-Istanbul? For a moment I wanted to hop on board, but wondered if the unit would miss me on set in the morning! Cheers Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Train Stories.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 33011 bytes Desc: not available URL: From graeme.wall at icloud.com Thu Feb 23 09:14:31 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:14:31 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning In-Reply-To: <23ff7572-07ff-bfbe-3cd9-ec172c6ac099@amps.net> References: <23ff7572-07ff-bfbe-3cd9-ec172c6ac099@amps.net> Message-ID: <7BE4D8D2-AA93-4D44-9573-E2B7A7C1F67A@icloud.com> Definitely hang on tlll after the chocolates arrive! > On 23 Feb 2023, at 14:09, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > Oh Dear, Oh Dear! > Pat?s in a mood again!! > What is wrong with this country? > Cost of living rises ? I?m not surprised. I frequently shop at an M & S Simply Food outlet in a local service station. Yes their food is expensive and today I had forgotten a carrier bag, so was charged 30p for one. Plastic bags used to be rung up at 5p, then it went to 10p ? but 30p? > Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? > Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong column, forename where the surname should be, and the polling station has changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports hall, much further away. > Postal vote from now on, I think. > A sweet lass, professional singer, gave me a gift for my 80th of a goodie bag full of delicious chocolate things. I think she collected it from a European engagement. One component was French Florentines ? a scrumptious confection of nuts, nougat, & chocolate. I ordered some more from the manufacturer in France, although the website and order form was in French. The credit card was charged - very quickly(!) but nothing arrived. Eventually a letter from Parcelforce, saying the driver couldn?t find my address ? rubbish, other couriers and utilities service engineers don?t have any trouble. Their helpline produced an interminable menu. A re-delivery was booked and the driver complained that there was no-one at home ? rubbish again, I had stayed in all day. A third attempted delivery was successful, but the driver beat a hasty retreat before I could inform him that that was where I lived. I did discover that he had been the previous courier. > And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a new service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via internet. Two new handsets arrived, which did not work on my existing router, until I realised that I had been sent one for Halo 3 some time ago. (I thought HALO was an SAS parachute infiltration manoeuvre). So that works, but there is no way of transferring an existing contact list to the new handsets, although it is possible to plug in my old phones to the router. Otherwise it?s a long process to re-type everything, and there is not enough time to do each one, before the handset gets bored and shuts down, so you have to start again. > Two of my friends, and a neighbour have succumbed to Covid, just recently, my Rheumatology Doc is trying to limit me to one bottle of wine per week ? I ask you! Thus I?m losing the will to live ? but I might hold on until the chocolates arrive from France! > Pat > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Thu Feb 23 09:15:58 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:15:58 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning In-Reply-To: <23ff7572-07ff-bfbe-3cd9-ec172c6ac099@amps.net> References: <23ff7572-07ff-bfbe-3cd9-ec172c6ac099@amps.net> Message-ID: On 23/02/2023 14:09, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > Oh Dear, Oh Dear! > ... > Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag > from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? > Well if you remembered your own bag in the first place you wouldn't ever need to throw 30pences back and forth at all;} > > Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll > information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong column, > forename where the surname should be, and the polling station has > changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports hall, > much further away. > Postal vote from now on, I think. > Ah! You've forgotten the news that the current ruling party wants to make it as hard as possible to vote - such a nuisance when you have to convince the general public, rather than just have the ones you want voting. For the moment you only have to show your identity card - you do have photo ID? - in person, but they have plans for postal voters too... they have plans, Mr Heigham Pat.... > > And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to > point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a new > service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via internet. > A VOIP system - good quality and very useful if you have excellent and reliable digital services. But during a power-cut? You're on your own, love - no 999 calls, no NHS111. They're supposed to be doing something about it, somehow, but don't hold your breath - easier to let a few old fogeys die off than work out a solution. So now you'll be in even more of a mood! Chris Woolf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waresound at msn.com Thu Feb 23 10:27:25 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:27:25 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning In-Reply-To: <7BE4D8D2-AA93-4D44-9573-E2B7A7C1F67A@icloud.com> References: <23ff7572-07ff-bfbe-3cd9-ec172c6ac099@amps.net> <7BE4D8D2-AA93-4D44-9573-E2B7A7C1F67A@icloud.com> Message-ID: Pat, your local M&S stocks Malteser Easter Bunnies. Have you tried them? Judi has to hide them from me so that I can?t guzzle them all in one go. Those and the M&S Salted Caramel Cookies - I can?t be trusted with them either. Come to think of it, it?s tea and biccy time as I write this?.! And as for one bottle of wine a week - don?t be ridiculous! By the way was it you or Martin on Music in Time, the day we couldn?t resist getting the train from Warsaw to Chopin?s birthplace some 45 miles away? Dear Derek Bailey winked at me with his one and only eye as we arrived back late for a shooting opportunity that had cropped up unexpectedly, and just said ?Don?t worry, I?d have done the same!? N. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > On 23 Feb 2023, at 15:15, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Definitely hang on tlll after the chocolates arrive! > >> On 23 Feb 2023, at 14:09, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >> >> Oh Dear, Oh Dear! >> Pat?s in a mood again!! >> What is wrong with this country? >> Cost of living rises ? I?m not surprised. I frequently shop at an M & S Simply Food outlet in a local service station. Yes their food is expensive and today I had forgotten a carrier bag, so was charged 30p for one. Plastic bags used to be rung up at 5p, then it went to 10p ? but 30p? >> Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? >> Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong column, forename where the surname should be, and the polling station has changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports hall, much further away. >> Postal vote from now on, I think. >> A sweet lass, professional singer, gave me a gift for my 80th of a goodie bag full of delicious chocolate things. I think she collected it from a European engagement. One component was French Florentines ? a scrumptious confection of nuts, nougat, & chocolate. I ordered some more from the manufacturer in France, although the website and order form was in French. The credit card was charged - very quickly(!) but nothing arrived. Eventually a letter from Parcelforce, saying the driver couldn?t find my address ? rubbish, other couriers and utilities service engineers don?t have any trouble. Their helpline produced an interminable menu. A re-delivery was booked and the driver complained that there was no-one at home ? rubbish again, I had stayed in all day. A third attempted delivery was successful, but the driver beat a hasty retreat before I could inform him that that was where I lived. I did discover that he had been the previous courier. >> And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a new service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via internet. Two new handsets arrived, which did not work on my existing router, until I realised that I had been sent one for Halo 3 some time ago. (I thought HALO was an SAS parachute infiltration manoeuvre). So that works, but there is no way of transferring an existing contact list to the new handsets, although it is possible to plug in my old phones to the router. Otherwise it?s a long process to re-type everything, and there is not enough time to do each one, before the handset gets bored and shuts down, so you have to start again. >> Two of my friends, and a neighbour have succumbed to Covid, just recently, my Rheumatology Doc is trying to limit me to one bottle of wine per week ? I ask you! Thus I?m losing the will to live ? but I might hold on until the chocolates arrive from France! >> Pat >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > ? > Graeme Wall > > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From alanaudio at me.com Thu Feb 23 10:38:38 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:38:38 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C944ABB-7208-434E-BC88-ED8677B219C6@me.com> Chopin?s birthplace is somewhat more impressive than Mozart?s birthplace in Salzburg. Mozart appears to have been born above a Spar supermarket ( photographs of his birthplace often fail to show the ground floor for some reason ). Alan > On 23 Feb 2023, at 16:27, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: > > By the way was it you or Martin on Music in Time, the day we couldn?t resist getting the train from Warsaw to Chopin?s birthplace some 45 miles away? Dear Derek Bailey winked at me with his one and only eye as we arrived back late for a shooting opportunity that had cropped up unexpectedly, and just said ?Don?t worry, I?d have done the same!? > N. > > Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > >> On 23 Feb 2023, at 15:15, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ?Definitely hang on tlll after the chocolates arrive! >> >>>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 14:09, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> Oh Dear, Oh Dear! >>> Pat?s in a mood again!! >>> What is wrong with this country? >>> Cost of living rises ? I?m not surprised. I frequently shop at an M & S Simply Food outlet in a local service station. Yes their food is expensive and today I had forgotten a carrier bag, so was charged 30p for one. Plastic bags used to be rung up at 5p, then it went to 10p ? but 30p? >>> Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? >>> Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong column, forename where the surname should be, and the polling station has changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports hall, much further away. >>> Postal vote from now on, I think. >>> A sweet lass, professional singer, gave me a gift for my 80th of a goodie bag full of delicious chocolate things. I think she collected it from a European engagement. One component was French Florentines ? a scrumptious confection of nuts, nougat, & chocolate. I ordered some more from the manufacturer in France, although the website and order form was in French. The credit card was charged - very quickly(!) but nothing arrived. Eventually a letter from Parcelforce, saying the driver couldn?t find my address ? rubbish, other couriers and utilities service engineers don?t have any trouble. Their helpline produced an interminable menu. A re-delivery was booked and the driver complained that there was no-one at home ? rubbish again, I had stayed in all day. A third attempted delivery was successful, but the driver beat a hasty retreat before I could inform him that that was where I lived. I did discover that he had been the previous courier. >>> And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a new service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via internet. Two new handsets arrived, which did not work on my existing router, until I realised that I had been sent one for Halo 3 some time ago. (I thought HALO was an SAS parachute infiltration manoeuvre). So that works, but there is no way of transferring an existing contact list to the new handsets, although it is possible to plug in my old phones to the router. Otherwise it?s a long process to re-type everything, and there is not enough time to do each one, before the handset gets bored and shuts down, so you have to start again. >>> Two of my friends, and a neighbour have succumbed to Covid, just recently, my Rheumatology Doc is trying to limit me to one bottle of wine per week ? I ask you! Thus I?m losing the will to live ? but I might hold on until the chocolates arrive from France! >>> Pat >>> >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> ? >> Graeme Wall >> >> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From jnottage.jn at googlemail.com Thu Feb 23 11:43:43 2023 From: jnottage.jn at googlemail.com (John Nottage) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:43:43 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning In-Reply-To: References: <23ff7572-07ff-bfbe-3cd9-ec172c6ac099@amps.net> <7BE4D8D2-AA93-4D44-9573-E2B7A7C1F67A@icloud.com> Message-ID: <04be7a01-c491-4a92-38e7-12cf82a0f34c@googlemail.com> Did an eclipse with P. Moore & the Sky at Night team, with Mike Winser as the cameraman, in Cornwall years ago. They'd booked a cottage nearby. Mike was doing the cooking & he brought down all the food & drink. He allowed one bottle of wine per person per meal! Alas, I'm restricted do the occasional small glass these days. John Nottage On 23/02/2023 16:27, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: > Pat, your local M&S stocks Malteser Easter Bunnies. Have you tried them? Judi has to hide them from me so that I can?t guzzle them all in one go. Those and the M&S Salted Caramel Cookies - I can?t be trusted with them either. Come to think of it, it?s tea and biccy time as I write this?.! > And as for one bottle of wine a week - don?t be ridiculous! > > By the way was it you or Martin on Music in Time, the day we couldn?t resist getting the train from Warsaw to Chopin?s birthplace some 45 miles away? Dear Derek Bailey winked at me with his one and only eye as we arrived back late for a shooting opportunity that had cropped up unexpectedly, and just said ?Don?t worry, I?d have done the same!? > N. > > Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > >> On 23 Feb 2023, at 15:15, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ?Definitely hang on tlll after the chocolates arrive! >> >>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 14:09, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> Oh Dear, Oh Dear! >>> Pat?s in a mood again!! >>> What is wrong with this country? >>> Cost of living rises ? I?m not surprised. I frequently shop at an M & S Simply Food outlet in a local service station. Yes their food is expensive and today I had forgotten a carrier bag, so was charged 30p for one. Plastic bags used to be rung up at 5p, then it went to 10p ? but 30p? >>> Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? >>> Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong column, forename where the surname should be, and the polling station has changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports hall, much further away. >>> Postal vote from now on, I think. >>> A sweet lass, professional singer, gave me a gift for my 80th of a goodie bag full of delicious chocolate things. I think she collected it from a European engagement. One component was French Florentines ? a scrumptious confection of nuts, nougat, & chocolate. I ordered some more from the manufacturer in France, although the website and order form was in French. The credit card was charged - very quickly(!) but nothing arrived. Eventually a letter from Parcelforce, saying the driver couldn?t find my address ? rubbish, other couriers and utilities service engineers don?t have any trouble. Their helpline produced an interminable menu. A re-delivery was booked and the driver complained that there was no-one at home ? rubbish again, I had stayed in all day. A third attempted delivery was successful, but the driver beat a hasty retreat before I could inform him that that was where I lived. I did discover that he had been the previous courier. >>> And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a new service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via internet. Two new handsets arrived, which did not work on my existing router, until I realised that I had been sent one for Halo 3 some time ago. (I thought HALO was an SAS parachute infiltration manoeuvre). So that works, but there is no way of transferring an existing contact list to the new handsets, although it is possible to plug in my old phones to the router. Otherwise it?s a long process to re-type everything, and there is not enough time to do each one, before the handset gets bored and shuts down, so you have to start again. >>> Two of my friends, and a neighbour have succumbed to Covid, just recently, my Rheumatology Doc is trying to limit me to one bottle of wine per week ? I ask you! Thus I?m losing the will to live ? but I might hold on until the chocolates arrive from France! >>> Pat >>> >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> ? >> Graeme Wall >> >> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 17:32:27 2023 From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 23:32:27 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> References: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7FA275CD-C4D6-4990-A604-AD18A8EC6CFF@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoffletch at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 17:49:38 2023 From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 23:49:38 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Codd bottles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5537E3EE-83D9-4EEB-999D-E79C3400A483@gmail.com> Back in the 70s, Jules Greenway and I were keen bottle diggers. We were pretty successful as we researched our sites, and still have most of the decent ones and pot lids we found. Geoff F > On 23 Feb 2023, at 11:30, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > > Mike Johnson ( OB sound supervisor ) used to live in quite an old house in Twickenham which had been built on the site of an early Victorian rubbish tip. Various intriguing drinks bottles and medicine bottles would magically work their way towards the surface and be revealed when he was doing a bit of gardening. He built up quite a collection of fascinating bottles, but admitted that he knew very little about them. > > A near neighbour of his was a keen collector of bottles and was impressed that Mike was essentially just picking them up out of his garden. He decided to investigate what might be below his own garden. The way Mike told it, the neighbour dug up his entire garden to a depth of a few feet and never found a single bottle. > > Alan > > >> On 23 Feb 2023, at 10:58, Graeme Wall wrote: >> >> ?I?ve a Codd bottle, complete with marble, that I dug up in our garden in Southampton. We were a long way from the nearest pub! It?s got a slight chip out of the base but otherwise intact. Originally made for A E Cahdler & Co, Portswood Road, Southampton. Nicely moulded into the glass. >> > >> >> >> >>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 10:04, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> Our garden wall and hedge has been in place for centuries. We live more or less opposite the village pub, so it?s not surprising that whenever we did around in the base of the hedge, we find stuff discarded from a long time ago. We often find broken clay pipes, or bits of Codd bottles from Victorian times. It?s relatively rare to find complete bottles because boys used to smash them in order to get the glass marble which was used to seal the neck and keep the carbonated drink pressurised. >>> >>> Here?s a picture of some fragments which appeared last week. The glass is very much thicker than that used for modern bottles. >>> >>> >>> >>> That wasn?t at all unusual and I?m sure many of you find similar stuff in your gardens, but what did surprise me was that Janet found brand new Codd bottles in Morrisons, containing a Japanese fizzy drink. >>> >>> >>> >>> Alan-- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> ? >> Graeme Wall >> >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 750721 B10:23M Jules Greenway and me bottle digging, Peplow, Shropshire copy.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 36888 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 03:55:50 2023 From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 09:55:50 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <7FA275CD-C4D6-4990-A604-AD18A8EC6CFF@gmail.com> References: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> <7FA275CD-C4D6-4990-A604-AD18A8EC6CFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Geoffrey, On 23/02/2023 23:32, Geoffrey Hawkes wrote: > Were they actually used by railway workmen and if so when and where Yes, they were really used by railway workers - all over the world where there were railways!?? In the UK, in general, the pump trolleys were kept in locations on the side of the railway, on small sections of track at right angles to the running lines? - this shows the idea. A handcar (pump trolley UK) | Diesel locomotive, Hand cart, Caboose I am pretty sure I remember - but memory is fading - that there was a pump trolley parking spot near to Coley Junction on the GWR lines south of Reading, for example.? (Witness would be a section of sleepers laid at right angles to the running track....) Used by railwaymen to do close inspection of the track, or to get to remote locations when no train was available,? or to carry tools and supplies to repair track and trackbed.? And of course, in some places,? they got used for some passenger transport as well!! Used from the earliest railway days, but in later years they were replaced by the Wickham trolley - more or less the same wheelbase, built for the same purposes, but with a diesel engine and weather shielding: Wickham Trolley | Didcot Railway Centre Again, these could be man-handled off and on the running track by a group of gangers. Back to the pump trolleys - Roy Castle and the Record Breakers TV show attempted to break the World pump trolley speed record on the Kent & East Sussex Railway. 2008 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2vu55qiEno And of course, the pump trolley has appeared in many films and tv shows- here's a couple: In the Dad's Army episode "The Royal Train", the Walmington-on-Sea Home Guard platoon find themselves stuck on a runaway train. Warden Hodges, the vicar, the verger and the town mayor chase them using a pump trolley (handcart). Thomas the Tank Engine episode "Haunted Henry" (1998) And, since all railway locomotives (like ships) were referred to as "she" , this recreation of a scene from the 1966 "Great St Trinian's Train Robbery" by photographer **Jack Boskett emphasises that fact!* * Pump trolleys wee a very useful and convenient way for the permanent way "gangers" to get to locations to repair track, even if there were times when a steam loco might be breathing up the pumper's behinds! Best regards, Alec -- ======= Alec Bray alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Mob: 07789 561 346 Tel: 0118 981 7502 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Fri Feb 24 05:39:53 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 11:39:53 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: <8c7b4c69-9636-d997-7526-22fd2cd68608@gmail.com> <7FA275CD-C4D6-4990-A604-AD18A8EC6CFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Excellent reply, Alec. My father was in the North African campaign, REME, and he told me that they fitted flanged railway wheels to Landrovers, to run on the train tracks. Apropos of the spark arresters, I have friends living in a quiet Somerset village, with lots of thatched roofs, therefore fireworks are banned. Sample pic attached. Best wishes Pat On 24/02/2023 09:55, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: > > Hi Geoffrey, > > On 23/02/2023 23:32, Geoffrey Hawkes wrote: >> Were they actually used by railway workmen and if so when and where > > > Yes, they were really used by railway workers - all over the world > where there were railways!?? In the UK, in general, the pump trolleys > were kept in locations on the side of the railway, on small sections > of track at right angles to the running lines - this shows the idea. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1140874.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 221999 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alanaudio at me.com Fri Feb 24 11:42:24 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 17:42:24 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps Message-ID: For any would-be Buster Keatons, some preservation railways do offer self drive pump along trolley rides, such as this one ? https://dvlr.org.uk/product/pump-trolley-experience/ The one we tried in Devon was tremendous fun. Admittedly the power to weight ratio wasn?t very impressive. Getting the thing moving was a painfully slow process and the acceleration was minimal, but once we got it going, it could maintain quite a decent speed without too much effort. Brakes were somewhere between conceptual and non-existent. There was a hardwood block which could be pressed against the steel tyre of one of the wheels, but no matter how hard you might press it, it doesn?t offer much stopping power. There is a little more to the story, which I have told previously. We recce?d the filming location a few weeks before and as I said, one station had a diesel shunter with a flat bed wagon in front of it to carry the tech gear and some of the crew. The pump trolley team drove to the next station, where the pump trolley was waiting. We would rendezvous at the filming location. It took a while to get up to speed on the pump trolley, but you will also appreciate that it was also an utterly joyous experience to hurtle along a railway track with the wind in your hair, pumping along like mad things and grinning like Cheshire cats. It was so much fun that we failed to identify the filming location and zoomed past it. When we rounded a corner in the track, we could see the crew on the flat bed wagon slowly chugging towards us, far in the distance on a long straight. They were waving, so we waved back and generally did our finest Buster Keaton act. Then we heard the whistle from the diesel shunter and realised that they weren?t waving because we looked so cool, they were waving because their shunter was trying to stop and we were still closing in on them. That?s when we tried using the brake. Then we tried using the brake really really hard and it made little difference. In hindsight it would have been hilarious if somebody had captured a sequence of pictures of our reactions, ranging from ?yes it?s us having fun on the trolley?, through ? is this supposed to be the brake??, then ?Oh my god, there must surely be some way to stop this thing?, and finally ?we?re going to crash, we?re doomed?. There was still some distance between us and the loco. In desperation, we tried pushing up on the downstroke of the handle to slow it that way too. We could see that the closing distance was diminishing less quickly than before and both vehicles had slowed down considerably. The shunter did come to a standstill, but we were still moving slowly ( maybe 2mph ) when the inevitable impact happened. One of our pumpers ( either Ralph or Steve ) decided to jump off the trolley at the last minute but ended up landing in a plantation of stinging nettles. Getting out involved walking through them the way he went into them, thereby doubling the pain. The remaining three of us survived the little bump against the flat wagon unscathed. The shunted driver gave us a right bollocking for overshooting the designated filming location, but conceded that no harm was done, so no need to report the incident. As far as thatched roofs are concerned, there are many thatched houses in my village and most of the owners are paranoid about fireworks igniting them. As a result, nobody lets off fireworks in the village. However until recently, one resident was a senior fire fighter and he insisted that there was nothing to worry about as fireworks would struggle to set thatched roofs alight. The outer layer of thatch is usually quite damp in winter and unlikely to be ignited by an external flame. He maintains that the outer layer of thatch is very difficult to ignite. But ? and it?s a very big but, the inner layers of thatch, which are protected from the weather are tinder dry and all too easy to set alight if given a suitable heat source. Most thatched roof fires are caused either by electrical faults in the roof, or a hot spot in the chimney igniting the dry stuff below the outer thatch. He challenges any worried householders to find a single newspaper cutting within the last fifty years of a thatched house within twenty five miles burning down on November 5th due to anything other than faults within the building or a chimney hot spot. Alan > On 24 Feb 2023, at 11:40, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > > ? > Excellent reply, Alec. > > My father was in the North African campaign, REME, and he told me that they fitted flanged railway wheels to Landrovers, > to run on the train tracks. > > Apropos of the spark arresters, I have friends living in a quiet Somerset village, with lots of thatched roofs, > therefore fireworks are banned. Sample pic attached. > > Best wishes > > Pat > > On 24/02/2023 09:55, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: >> Hi Geoffrey, >> >> On 23/02/2023 23:32, Geoffrey Hawkes wrote: >>> Were they actually used by railway workmen and if so when and where >> >> Yes, they were really used by railway workers - all over the world where there were railways! In the UK, in general, the pump trolleys were kept in locations on the side of the railway, on small sections of track at right angles to the running lines - this shows the idea. >> > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1140874.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 221999 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Fri Feb 24 12:45:59 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 18:45:59 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What a wonderful story, Alan! I surmise that if the handle is at top of the stroke, it could drive the trolley in either direction, thus a push start would be required to set it going the right way? I'm still amazed that Keaton did all his own stunts, Michael Crawford followed his example, but no doubt that H & S would say no - nowadays. I love steam trains - I make no apology for reprinting the following: A night shoot (Eye of the Needle) on the Watercress Line, for a shot where the Nazi agent had to jump off the train. No sound effects were required, as these had all been picked up previously, and my job was to look after all the communications kit. As I didn?t fancy sitting in my cold car for hours (it was November!) I offered my services as a temporary Assistant Director, with a walkie-talkie. ?Oh, Pat! Would you?? ?Yes, but one condition ? I?m the one that rides with the driver on the footplate!? (This being calculated as being possibly the warmest place!). So I spent the night on the footplate. This established ? we rehearsed in daylight, with the stunt double doing his bit. Come the night, a few takes were shot, until the engine driver asked me how many more times were we to chuff up and down. ?We hadn?t yet got a suitable take, so I asked him why. Apparently, the original plan had been to transport all the lighting kit up the line in the afternoon, then back to the station to pick up any extra stuff needed, where the engine would take on more water. This never happened, so the engine was running low on water. There was enough for one more run. Over the radio came the query ? what if we need one more? Driver?s answer: ?Tell ?em it?ll f**k**g blow up!? The next take was perfect! on 24/02/2023 17:42, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > For any would-be Buster Keatons, some preservation railways do offer > self drive pump along trolley rides, such as this one ? > > https://dvlr.org.uk/product/pump-trolley-experience/ > > The one we tried in Devon was tremendous fun. Admittedly the power to > weight ratio wasn?t very impressive. ?Getting the thing moving was a > painfully slow process and the acceleration was minimal, but once we > got it going, it could maintain quite a decent speed without too much > effort. > > Brakes were somewhere between conceptual and non-existent. ?There was > a hardwood block which could be pressed against the steel tyre of one > of the wheels, but no matter how hard you might press it, it doesn?t > offer much stopping power. > > There is a little more to the story, which I have told previously. ?We > recce?d the filming location a few weeks before and as I said, one > station had a diesel shunter with a flat bed wagon in front of it to > carry the tech gear and some of the crew. The pump trolley team drove > to the next station, where the pump trolley was waiting. We would > rendezvous at the filming location. > > It took a while to get up to speed on the pump trolley, but you will > also appreciate that it was also an utterly joyous experience to > hurtle along a railway track with the wind in your hair, pumping along > like mad things and grinning like Cheshire cats. > > It was so much fun that we failed to identify the filming location and > zoomed past it. ?When we rounded a corner in the track, we could see > the crew on the flat bed wagon slowly chugging towards us, far in the > distance on a long straight. ?They were waving, so we waved back and > generally did our finest Buster Keaton act. > > Then we heard the whistle from the diesel shunter and realised that > they weren?t waving because we looked so cool, they were waving > because their shunter was trying to stop and we were still closing in > on them. That?s when we tried using the brake. Then we tried using the > brake really really hard and it made little difference. In hindsight > it would have been hilarious if somebody had captured a sequence of > pictures of our reactions, ranging from ?yes it?s us having fun on the > trolley?, through ? is this supposed to be the brake??, then ?Oh my > god, there must surely be some way to stop this thing?, and finally > ?we?re going to crash, we?re doomed?. > > There was still some distance between us and the loco. In desperation, > we tried pushing up on the downstroke of the handle to slow it that > way too. ?We could see that the closing distance was diminishing less > quickly than before and both vehicles had slowed down considerably. > The shunter did come to a standstill, but we were still moving slowly > ( maybe 2mph ) when the inevitable impact happened. > > One of our pumpers ( either Ralph or Steve ) decided to jump off the > trolley at the last minute but ended up landing in a plantation of > stinging nettles. ?Getting out involved walking through them the way > he went into them, thereby doubling the pain. The remaining three of > us survived the little bump against the flat wagon unscathed. ?The > shunted driver gave us a right bollocking for overshooting the > designated filming location, but conceded that no harm was done, so no > need to report the incident. > > > As far as thatched roofs are concerned, there are many thatched houses > in my village and most of the owners are paranoid about fireworks > igniting them. As a result, nobody lets off fireworks in the village. > ?However until recently, one resident was a senior fire fighter and he > insisted that there was nothing to worry about as fireworks would > struggle to set thatched roofs alight. The outer layer of thatch is > usually quite damp in winter and unlikely to be ignited by an external > flame. ?He maintains that the outer layer of thatch is very difficult > to ignite. > > But ? and it?s a very big but, the inner layers of thatch, which are > protected from the weather are tinder dry and all too easy to set > alight if given a suitable heat source. Most thatched roof fires are > caused either by electrical faults in the roof, or a hot spot in the > chimney igniting the dry stuff below the outer thatch. > > He challenges any worried householders to find a single newspaper > cutting within the last fifty years of a thatched house within twenty > five miles burning down on November 5th due to anything other than > faults within the building or a chimney hot spot. > > Alan > > >> On 24 Feb 2023, at 11:40, Pat Heigham via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> ? >> >> Excellent reply, Alec. >> >> My father was in the North African campaign, REME, and he told me >> that they fitted flanged railway wheels to Landrovers, >> to run on the train tracks. >> >> Apropos of the spark arresters, I have friends living in a quiet >> Somerset village, with lots of thatched roofs, >> therefore fireworks are banned. Sample pic attached. >> >> Best wishes >> >> Pat >> >> On 24/02/2023 09:55, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> Hi Geoffrey, >>> >>> On 23/02/2023 23:32, Geoffrey Hawkes wrote: >>>> Were they actually used by railway workmen and if so when and where >>> >>> >>> Yes, they were really used by railway workers - all over the world >>> where there were railways!?? In the UK, in general, the pump >>> trolleys were kept in locations on the side of the railway, on small >>> sections of track at right angles to the running lines? - this shows >>> the idea. >>> >> 1140874.jpg-- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1140874.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 221999 bytes Desc: not available URL: From techtone at protonmail.com Fri Feb 24 15:06:03 2023 From: techtone at protonmail.com (techtone) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 21:06:03 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] On the footplate (was Heat pumps) Message-ID: I too had a memorable shoot on the Watercress line for a children's programme about ghosts (sorry, can't remember the name of the programme). This particular location was for the ghost train, and we had to start the shoot around the 'witching hour' of evening approaching the gloaming. To start, the camera was locked off on the footbridge overlooking a station platform (and no, sadly I can't remember which station, drat and double drat!). I'd lit the platform with about half a dozen redheads to augment the station's own lights, and had put two grad filters in the matte box, 0.9ND and dark blue, to bring down the evening sky. When all set up, and rolling to record, we cued the train to steam through the shot. All OK, and when I saw the shot on transmission - WOW - in post those VT experts had used soft edged wipes to both wipe vertically across the frame in the opposite direction of the engine's travel to make it disappear, but also a soft edged wipe top of frame so's to leave a plume of smoke just hanging there in the gloaming, simply magic (hey, I did that!). The last part of the shoot was me on the footplate getting shots of the suitably made-up driver. And when I said 'Go' we went, and when I said 'Stop' we stopped (eventually) and reversed and did a couple more takes from different angles. Yes, it was quite a cold night, but beautifully warm on the footplate. Thank you for reminding me of the memory. TeaTeaFN - Tony Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 18:45, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: > What a wonderful story, Alan! > > I surmise that if the handle is at top of the stroke, it could drive the trolley in either direction, thus a push start would be required to set it going the right way? > > I'm still amazed that Keaton did all his own stunts, Michael Crawford followed his example, but no doubt that H & S would say no - nowadays. > > I love steam trains - I make no apology for reprinting the following: > > A night shoot (Eye of the Needle) on the Watercress Line, for a shot where the Nazi agent had to jump off the train. No sound effects were required, as these had all been picked up previously, and my job was to look after all the communications kit. As I didn?t fancy sitting in my cold car for hours (it was November!) I offered my services as a temporary Assistant Director, with a walkie-talkie. > > ?Oh, Pat! Would you?? ?Yes, but one condition ? I?m the one that rides with the driver on the footplate!? (This being calculated as being possibly the warmest place!). > > So I spent the night on the footplate. > > This established ? we rehearsed in daylight, with the stunt double doing his bit. Come the night, a few takes were shot, until the engine driver asked me how many more times were we to chuff up and down. > > We hadn?t yet got a suitable take, so I asked him why. Apparently, the original plan had been to transport all the lighting kit up the line in the afternoon, then back to the station to pick up any extra stuff needed, where the engine would take on more water. > > This never happened, so the engine was running low on water. There was enough for one more run. > > Over the radio came the query ? what if we need one more? > > Driver?s answer: ?Tell ?em it?ll f**k**g blow up!? > > The next take was perfect! > > on 24/02/2023 17:42, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > >> For any would-be Buster Keatons, some preservation railways do offer self drive pump along trolley rides, such as this one ? >> >> https://dvlr.org.uk/product/pump-trolley-experience/ >> >> The one we tried in Devon was tremendous fun. Admittedly the power to weight ratio wasn?t very impressive. Getting the thing moving was a painfully slow process and the acceleration was minimal, but once we got it going, it could maintain quite a decent speed without too much effort. >> >> Brakes were somewhere between conceptual and non-existent. There was a hardwood block which could be pressed against the steel tyre of one of the wheels, but no matter how hard you might press it, it doesn?t offer much stopping power. >> >> There is a little more to the story, which I have told previously. We recce?d the filming location a few weeks before and as I said, one station had a diesel shunter with a flat bed wagon in front of it to carry the tech gear and some of the crew. The pump trolley team drove to the next station, where the pump trolley was waiting. We would rendezvous at the filming location. >> >> It took a while to get up to speed on the pump trolley, but you will also appreciate that it was also an utterly joyous experience to hurtle along a railway track with the wind in your hair, pumping along like mad things and grinning like Cheshire cats. >> >> It was so much fun that we failed to identify the filming location and zoomed past it. When we rounded a corner in the track, we could see the crew on the flat bed wagon slowly chugging towards us, far in the distance on a long straight. They were waving, so we waved back and generally did our finest Buster Keaton act. >> >> Then we heard the whistle from the diesel shunter and realised that they weren?t waving because we looked so cool, they were waving because their shunter was trying to stop and we were still closing in on them. That?s when we tried using the brake. Then we tried using the brake really really hard and it made little difference. In hindsight it would have been hilarious if somebody had captured a sequence of pictures of our reactions, ranging from ?yes it?s us having fun on the trolley?, through ? is this supposed to be the brake??, then ?Oh my god, there must surely be some way to stop this thing?, and finally ?we?re going to crash, we?re doomed?. >> >> There was still some distance between us and the loco. In desperation, we tried pushing up on the downstroke of the handle to slow it that way too. We could see that the closing distance was diminishing less quickly than before and both vehicles had slowed down considerably. The shunter did come to a standstill, but we were still moving slowly ( maybe 2mph ) when the inevitable impact happened. >> >> One of our pumpers ( either Ralph or Steve ) decided to jump off the trolley at the last minute but ended up landing in a plantation of stinging nettles. Getting out involved walking through them the way he went into them, thereby doubling the pain. The remaining three of us survived the little bump against the flat wagon unscathed. The shunted driver gave us a right bollocking for overshooting the designated filming location, but conceded that no harm was done, so no need to report the incident. >> >> As far as thatched roofs are concerned, there are many thatched houses in my village and most of the owners are paranoid about fireworks igniting them. As a result, nobody lets off fireworks in the village. However until recently, one resident was a senior fire fighter and he insisted that there was nothing to worry about as fireworks would struggle to set thatched roofs alight. The outer layer of thatch is usually quite damp in winter and unlikely to be ignited by an external flame. He maintains that the outer layer of thatch is very difficult to ignite. >> >> But ? and it?s a very big but, the inner layers of thatch, which are protected from the weather are tinder dry and all too easy to set alight if given a suitable heat source. Most thatched roof fires are caused either by electrical faults in the roof, or a hot spot in the chimney igniting the dry stuff below the outer thatch. >> >> He challenges any worried householders to find a single newspaper cutting within the last fifty years of a thatched house within twenty five miles burning down on November 5th due to anything other than faults within the building or a chimney hot spot. >> >> Alan >> >>> On 24 Feb 2023, at 11:40, Pat Heigham via Tech1 [](mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk) wrote: >> >>> ? >>> >>> Excellent reply, Alec. >>> >>> My father was in the North African campaign, REME, and he told me that they fitted flanged railway wheels to Landrovers, >>> to run on the train tracks. >>> >>> Apropos of the spark arresters, I have friends living in a quiet Somerset village, with lots of thatched roofs, >>> therefore fireworks are banned. Sample pic attached. >>> >>> Best wishes >>> >>> Pat >>> >>> On 24/02/2023 09:55, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Geoffrey, >>>> >>>> On 23/02/2023 23:32, Geoffrey Hawkes wrote: >>>> >>>>> Were they actually used by railway workmen and if so when and where >>>> >>>> Yes, they were really used by railway workers - all over the world where there were railways! In the UK, in general, the pump trolleys were kept in locations on the side of the railway, on small sections of track at right angles to the running lines - this shows the idea. >>> >>> [1140874.jpg]-- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1140874.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 221999 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mikej at bmanor.co.uk Fri Feb 24 15:24:25 2023 From: mikej at bmanor.co.uk (Mike Jordan) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 21:24:25 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] The evolution of microphones at the BBC Message-ID: <9309DD2DC86A4437BE74D22A731B0ABB@Gigabyte> A great YouTube video from the BBC Archive. Just so you know what mic to use! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtmU_3PIx3M Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Fri Feb 24 16:30:43 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 22:30:43 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <531EC10F-3A82-412D-BE20-4A0BBB5E9BAB@me.com> We weren?t given any sort of instructions. Our starting off technique was that the two facing backwards ( at the front ) got onto the trolley with their hands on the pump handle ready to go . The other two gave the trolley a push to get it moving slowly, then jumped aboard and started joining the others in pumping too. Im pretty sure you could get moving by starting with the handle just off of top dead centre, but it seemed that we could get off to a quicker start by getting the trolley moving and then working the han We could fantasise about not only being Buster Keaton, but also bobsleigh racers starting off too. As a tribute to Buster Keaton, we did our own stunts and hoped that neither the BBC safety officer nor our line managers got to hear about it. Alan > On 24 Feb 2023, at 21:25, Pat Heigham wrote: > > ? > What a wonderful story, Alan! > > I surmise that if the handle is at top of the stroke, it could drive the trolley in either direction, thus a push start would be required to set it going the right way? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 03:50:52 2023 From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 09:50:52 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Buster Keaton - Steam Locos - Walt Disney - Steam Locos 9was Heat Pumps) In-Reply-To: <531EC10F-3A82-412D-BE20-4A0BBB5E9BAB@me.com> References: <531EC10F-3A82-412D-BE20-4A0BBB5E9BAB@me.com> Message-ID: <8a929175-1092-9722-5cf8-6094bb636e6c@gmail.com> Hi all, There was another film with Buster Keaton and Steam Locomotives. "Our Hospitality" is quite difficult to come by nowadays, as it includes themes which are no longer acceptable - and not just be the woke people. Any resemblance to Rocket is entirely intentional. Slewing the lightly laid track around a recalcitrant mule And there are lots more railway related incidents in this silent film... Walt Disney was a steam locomotive fan? - and had live steam in his back yard. Because of Walt's interest in steam railroads, the first Disneyland (LA) park had a full sized steam powered railway around the perimeter of the park, and every Disney World since has included a steam railway? As was mentioned earlier (Ian?) Severn Lamb are busy making locos for these railways. Every Disney film starts with an image of the Magic Kingdom - complete with steam train crossing the scene (and bridge) from left to right and as you might expect ... steam locomotive and pump trolley together ... Disneyland ... Oh, and as a coda to Alan's saga: Puffers have buffers -? but pumpers - no bumpers... The diesel shunter could have reversed, and so reduced the closing speed between it and the pump trolley.? This sort of situation did actually occur in real train operation. Rev Awdry based his stories on actual railway happenings ... Best regards, Alec -- ======= Alec Bray alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Mob: 07789 561 346 Tel: 0118 981 7502 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: n20xDtrV5YXIgs8d.png Type: image/png Size: 346873 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: adFXXwlHinkEvAKx.png Type: image/png Size: 409176 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DyQ6F1n8c5MgPT0s.png Type: image/png Size: 85215 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EgVo2Yu24OAer8DJ.png Type: image/png Size: 510290 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 43GoBiPSEBPtiqza.png Type: image/png Size: 459415 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: D0hVet0GX4idPUWV.png Type: image/png Size: 503061 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rpOur0Ow0y70OMxX.png Type: image/png Size: 262171 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Sat Feb 25 04:16:40 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:16:40 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Buster Keaton - Steam Locos - Walt Disney - Steam Locos 9was Heat Pumps) In-Reply-To: <8a929175-1092-9722-5cf8-6094bb636e6c@gmail.com> References: <531EC10F-3A82-412D-BE20-4A0BBB5E9BAB@me.com> <8a929175-1092-9722-5cf8-6094bb636e6c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8DCFB07AEB804BF28E188721DA666348@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> What a mine of fascinating information you are Alec! Dave Newbitt. From: Alec Bray via Tech1 Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2023 9:50 AM To: Tech Ops Subject: [Tech1] Buster Keaton - Steam Locos - Walt Disney - Steam Locos 9was Heat Pumps) Hi all, There was another film with Buster Keaton and Steam Locomotives. "Our Hospitality" is quite difficult to come by nowadays, as it includes themes which are no longer acceptable - and not just be the woke people. Any resemblance to Rocket is entirely intentional. Slewing the lightly laid track around a recalcitrant mule And there are lots more railway related incidents in this silent film... Walt Disney was a steam locomotive fan - and had live steam in his back yard. Because of Walt's interest in steam railroads, the first Disneyland (LA) park had a full sized steam powered railway around the perimeter of the park, and every Disney World since has included a steam railway As was mentioned earlier (Ian?) Severn Lamb are busy making locos for these railways. Every Disney film starts with an image of the Magic Kingdom - complete with steam train crossing the scene (and bridge) from left to right and as you might expect ... steam locomotive and pump trolley together ... Disneyland ... Oh, and as a coda to Alan's saga: Puffers have buffers - but pumpers - no bumpers... The diesel shunter could have reversed, and so reduced the closing speed between it and the pump trolley. This sort of situation did actually occur in real train operation. Rev Awdry based his stories on actual railway happenings ... Best regards, Alec -- ======= Alec Bray alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Mob: 07789 561 346 Tel: 0118 981 7502 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: rpOur0Ow0y70OMxX.png Type: image/png Size: 262171 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pat.heigham at amps.net Sat Feb 25 06:30:43 2023 From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 12:30:43 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Buster Keaton - Steam Locos - Walt Disney - Steam Locos 9was Heat Pumps) In-Reply-To: <8a929175-1092-9722-5cf8-6094bb636e6c@gmail.com> References: <531EC10F-3A82-412D-BE20-4A0BBB5E9BAB@me.com> <8a929175-1092-9722-5cf8-6094bb636e6c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c7bab6f-5043-fa6d-341d-3a7f00d502e2@amps.net> Fascinating, Alec. The man that played trains on a large scale was one of Disney's animators - Ward Kimball, who had steam railway in his back yard - must have had a fair amount of land! The following links are interesting, but the picture quality is a bit dire. Ward Kimball train The Grizzly Flats Railroad (GFRR) was a 3-foot (914 mm) narrow-gauge heritage railroad owned by Disney animator Ward Kimball at his home in San Gabriel, California. The railroad had 900 feet (274.3 m) of track, and was operated from 1942 to 2006. It was the first full-size backyard railroad in the United States. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4si5yRgLdBk&psig=AOvVaw119K8vSn4MozVf3AI23mm4&ust=1677412253352000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAwQjRx https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqNTJZyjCeU Enjoy! Pat (P.S. Amazon offer a DVD version of "Our Hospitality" used, and very cheap) On 25/02/2023 09:50, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote: > > Hi all, > > > There was another film with Buster Keaton and Steam Locomotives.? "Our > Hospitality" is quite difficult to come by nowadays, as it includes > themes which are no longer acceptable - and not just be the woke people. > > Any resemblance to Rocket is entirely intentional. > > Slewing the lightly laid track around a recalcitrant mule > > And there are lots more railway related incidents in this silent film... > > > Walt Disney was a steam locomotive fan? - and had live steam in his > back yard. > > Because of Walt's interest in steam railroads, the first Disneyland > (LA) park had a full sized steam powered railway around the perimeter > of the park, and every Disney World since has included a steam > railway? As was mentioned earlier (Ian?) Severn Lamb are busy making > locos for these railways. > > > > > > Every Disney film starts with an image of the Magic Kingdom - complete > with steam train crossing the scene (and bridge) from left to right > > > > and as you might expect ... > > steam locomotive and pump trolley together ... Disneyland ... > > > > > Oh, and as a coda to Alan's saga: > > Puffers have buffers -? but pumpers - no bumpers... > > > The diesel shunter could have reversed, and so reduced the closing > speed between it and the pump trolley.? This sort of situation did > actually occur in real train operation. > > Rev Awdry based his stories on actual railway happenings ... > > > > Best regards, > > Alec > > -- > ======= > > Alec Bray > > alec.bray.2 at gmail.com > Mob: 07789 561 346 > Tel: 0118 981 7502 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: n20xDtrV5YXIgs8d.png Type: image/png Size: 346873 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: adFXXwlHinkEvAKx.png Type: image/png Size: 409176 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: rpOur0Ow0y70OMxX.png Type: image/png Size: 262171 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 07:03:11 2023 From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 13:03:11 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Buster Keaton - Steam Locos - Walt Disney - Steam Locos 9was Heat Pumps) In-Reply-To: <4c7bab6f-5043-fa6d-341d-3a7f00d502e2@amps.net> References: <531EC10F-3A82-412D-BE20-4A0BBB5E9BAB@me.com> <8a929175-1092-9722-5cf8-6094bb636e6c@gmail.com> <4c7bab6f-5043-fa6d-341d-3a7f00d502e2@amps.net> Message-ID: <885fb1d8-759f-a3b9-611d-fb708256aba4@gmail.com> Hi Pat et al ... Those videos are fascinating - what a set of stories there are!??? Thank you very much for that.!!? Learn something new every day! The only Animator that I had read much about was Ubi Iwerks : it was said that he could do upwards of 600 drawings a day !!! Unfortunately Ub Iwerks had a fallout with Disney and resigned f from the studio in January 1930. Best regards, Alec -- ======= Alec Bray alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Mob: 07789 561 346 Tel: 0118 981 7502 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 07:15:45 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 13:15:45 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] A smart meter moan. Message-ID: Got smart meters fitted last year. Took them two visits. The supplied IHD (the separate reader which shows you usage etc) only showed gas. Phone up SMS who installed the meters - many many times. Got the usual 'try switching it off and on' and 'it can take two weeks to fully work' and so on. They eventully sent new one - different style. That does show both, but only the kwh used, and not the current costs. Or the correct time so it could give daily readings. The tarrif it showed appeared to be the one before the war and vast price increases. Phone them again. Got the same 'solutions'. Then found you could buy one. Which I did. Thinking if it didn't work I could just get a refund. It arrived this morning. Looks identical to my original. But works perfectly. Love to know if I should try claiming back the cost from SMS. From alanaudio at me.com Sat Feb 25 09:12:13 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 15:12:13 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Buster Keaton - Steam Locos - Walt Disney - Steam Locos 9was Heat Pumps) In-Reply-To: <8a929175-1092-9722-5cf8-6094bb636e6c@gmail.com> References: <8a929175-1092-9722-5cf8-6094bb636e6c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <194AB5DE-DFDE-4EB8-BB29-A53451801013@me.com> In the discussion following the intimate encounter between the pump along wagon and the flat wagon being pushed by the shunter, the driver explained that he was reluctant to do a full-on emergency stop because of the gear and people on the flat wagon. Like those of us on the pumper wagon, he assumed that the pumper had brakes which were more effective than they actually were. It never occurred to us that the loco and wagon wouldn?t already be waiting at the filming location. I had spent a while making sure that all the required sound gear was loaded onto the wagon. They looked almost ready to depart before we got in the car in order to drive to the next station to pick up the pumper. We assumed that the crew would be starting to set up and that we would be making a memorable arrival on our pumper. It turned out that our arrival was memorable, but for the wrong reasons. The fact that we expected the other contingent to be already there and setting up partly explained why we failed to notice when we passed that point. One bit of railway can look much like another bit if you?re not paying much attention. Alan From waresound at msn.com Sat Feb 25 13:40:36 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:40:36 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] On the footplate (was Heat pumps) Message-ID: Bit of a slow day today, so: ?I spent much of my early BBC years going to traction engine rallies with friend and fellow steam enthusiast, Harold Dines. Harold, as people know, was a delightfully eccentric Ealing sound recordist, thereafter based in film transfer. My interest was more in fairground organs, but I never got bored with the traction engines, and did get to ride on a few. Two big traction engines in a tug-o?-war is a sight to behold! A close buddy of Harold?s was local hero Bob Symes-Schutzmann, so you can imagine where that took us! But my most fun steam adventure was a job for Oxford Scientific Films. A job in which a Bristol University Professor was demonstrating optical illusions of one sort or another. This particular example was to be a re-creation (and a recreation!) of a classic B&W film stunt (Buster Keaton or Laurel & Hardy, I?m not sure?) where a steam train is heading directly towards the camera at full speed till it fills the full frame, effectively crashing into the cinema audience. So how was it done, with no special effects or CGI in those days? You had to do it for real, and this was how: We were on the East Somerset Line near Cranmore. Main camera set up at 90 degrees to the railway line, and a huge mirror rigged across the track at 45 degrees. Camera thus looking directly along the track. We did several practice runs without hitting the mirror, and obviously I ?needed? to be on the footplate for a wildtrack of the loco! For the actual take, with safety measures and glass clearing-up well prepared for, up comes the train at full speed and smashes through the mirror. You?ve never seen such a shower of shattered glass, and the shot was fabulous. And, of course, as soon as the mirror shatters, you get the side shot with debris flying everywhere. I never quite saw why the mirror needed to be so big, but that?s apparently how it was in the original shot, the loco carrying on at top speed through the still intact mirror frame. (?B? slo-mo camera for the ?how it was done? shot). I don?t have any pictures of the above, but here instead is a slightly mismatched stereo pair of glass bottles that I found as a kid. One of them is from the Castle Brewery right here in Guildford, a building I remember well (along with the Friary Brewery where I did my first ever holiday job, in the bottling plant). You have to wonder - do you suppose that in a few decades from now, people will collect old Coke bottles and Costa cups thrown out of cars by litter louts, and forever treasure them as I have done with these bottles for so long? [image0.jpeg] Cheers etc., Nick. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 639959 bytes Desc: image0.jpeg URL: From graeme.wall at icloud.com Sat Feb 25 14:08:17 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 20:08:17 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] On the footplate (was Heat pumps) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6AD901-44CB-429D-B6F0-4E979EDAB3F5@icloud.com> If it is a proper wasp waisted coke bottle and not one of the modern versions, they are already highly collectable > On 25 Feb 2023, at 19:40, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: > > You have to wonder - do you suppose that in a few decades from now, people will collect old Coke bottles and Costa cups thrown out of cars by litter louts, and forever treasure them as I have done with these bottles for so long? > ? Graeme Wall From mibridge at mac.com Sun Feb 26 02:42:08 2023 From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 08:42:08 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning In-Reply-To: <04be7a01-c491-4a92-38e7-12cf82a0f34c@googlemail.com> References: <04be7a01-c491-4a92-38e7-12cf82a0f34c@googlemail.com> Message-ID: And there?s a MacDonalds on the other side of the street from Mozart?s house - or at least there was in 1986! Granted it was a tasteful shade of brown, but I doubt the tastefulness went beyond that concession. Mike G > On 23 Feb 2023, at 17:43, John Nottage via Tech1 wrote: > > ?Did an eclipse with P. Moore & the Sky at Night team, with Mike Winser as the cameraman, in Cornwall years ago. They'd booked a cottage nearby. Mike was doing the cooking & he brought down all the food & drink. He allowed one bottle of wine per person per meal! > > Alas, I'm restricted do the occasional small glass these days. > > John Nottage > >> On 23/02/2023 16:27, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: >> Pat, your local M&S stocks Malteser Easter Bunnies. Have you tried them? Judi has to hide them from me so that I can?t guzzle them all in one go. Those and the M&S Salted Caramel Cookies - I can?t be trusted with them either. Come to think of it, it?s tea and biccy time as I write this?.! >> And as for one bottle of wine a week - don?t be ridiculous! >> By the way was it you or Martin on Music in Time, the day we couldn?t resist getting the train from Warsaw to Chopin?s birthplace some 45 miles away? Dear Derek Bailey winked at me with his one and only eye as we arrived back late for a shooting opportunity that had cropped up unexpectedly, and just said ?Don?t worry, I?d have done the same!? >> N. >> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad >>>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 15:15, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> ?Definitely hang on tlll after the chocolates arrive! >>> >>>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 14:09, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>>> >>>> Oh Dear, Oh Dear! >>>> Pat?s in a mood again!! >>>> What is wrong with this country? >>>> Cost of living rises ? I?m not surprised. I frequently shop at an M & S Simply Food outlet in a local service station. Yes their food is expensive and today I had forgotten a carrier bag, so was charged 30p for one. Plastic bags used to be rung up at 5p, then it went to 10p ? but 30p? >>>> Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? >>>> Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong column, forename where the surname should be, and the polling station has changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports hall, much further away. >>>> Postal vote from now on, I think. >>>> A sweet lass, professional singer, gave me a gift for my 80th of a goodie bag full of delicious chocolate things. I think she collected it from a European engagement. One component was French Florentines ? a scrumptious confection of nuts, nougat, & chocolate. I ordered some more from the manufacturer in France, although the website and order form was in French. The credit card was charged - very quickly(!) but nothing arrived. Eventually a letter from Parcelforce, saying the driver couldn?t find my address ? rubbish, other couriers and utilities service engineers don?t have any trouble. Their helpline produced an interminable menu. A re-delivery was booked and the driver complained that there was no-one at home ? rubbish again, I had stayed in all day. A third attempted delivery was successful, but the driver beat a hasty retreat before I could inform him that that was where I lived. I did discover that he had been the previous courier. >>>> And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a new service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via internet. Two new handsets arrived, which did not work on my existing router, until I realised that I had been sent one for Halo 3 some time ago. (I thought HALO was an SAS parachute infiltration manoeuvre). So that works, but there is no way of transferring an existing contact list to the new handsets, although it is possible to plug in my old phones to the router. Otherwise it?s a long process to re-type everything, and there is not enough time to do each one, before the handset gets bored and shuts down, so you have to start again. >>>> Two of my friends, and a neighbour have succumbed to Covid, just recently, my Rheumatology Doc is trying to limit me to one bottle of wine per week ? I ask you! Thus I?m losing the will to live ? but I might hold on until the chocolates arrive from France! >>>> Pat >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>> >>> ? >>> Graeme Wall >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From alanaudio at me.com Sun Feb 26 03:03:32 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:03:32 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don?t think that the McDonalds is still opposite Mozart?s birthplace - unless it?s Haydn. Alan > On 26 Feb 2023, at 08:43, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: > > ?And there?s a MacDonalds on the other side of the street from Mozart?s house - or at least there was in 1986! Granted it was a tasteful shade of brown, but I doubt the tastefulness went beyond that concession. > > Mike G > >> On 23 Feb 2023, at 17:43, John Nottage via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ?Did an eclipse with P. Moore & the Sky at Night team, with Mike Winser as the cameraman, in Cornwall years ago. They'd booked a cottage nearby. Mike was doing the cooking & he brought down all the food & drink. He allowed one bottle of wine per person per meal! >> >> Alas, I'm restricted do the occasional small glass these days. >> >> John Nottage >> >>>> On 23/02/2023 16:27, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: >>> Pat, your local M&S stocks Malteser Easter Bunnies. Have you tried them? Judi has to hide them from me so that I can?t guzzle them all in one go. Those and the M&S Salted Caramel Cookies - I can?t be trusted with them either. Come to think of it, it?s tea and biccy time as I write this?.! >>> And as for one bottle of wine a week - don?t be ridiculous! >>> By the way was it you or Martin on Music in Time, the day we couldn?t resist getting the train from Warsaw to Chopin?s birthplace some 45 miles away? Dear Derek Bailey winked at me with his one and only eye as we arrived back late for a shooting opportunity that had cropped up unexpectedly, and just said ?Don?t worry, I?d have done the same!? >>> N. >>> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad >>>>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 15:15, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: >>>> >>>> ?Definitely hang on tlll after the chocolates arrive! >>>> >>>>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 14:09, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Oh Dear, Oh Dear! >>>>> Pat?s in a mood again!! >>>>> What is wrong with this country? >>>>> Cost of living rises ? I?m not surprised. I frequently shop at an M & S Simply Food outlet in a local service station. Yes their food is expensive and today I had forgotten a carrier bag, so was charged 30p for one. Plastic bags used to be rung up at 5p, then it went to 10p ? but 30p? >>>>> Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? >>>>> Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong column, forename where the surname should be, and the polling station has changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports hall, much further away. >>>>> Postal vote from now on, I think. >>>>> A sweet lass, professional singer, gave me a gift for my 80th of a goodie bag full of delicious chocolate things. I think she collected it from a European engagement. One component was French Florentines ? a scrumptious confection of nuts, nougat, & chocolate. I ordered some more from the manufacturer in France, although the website and order form was in French. The credit card was charged - very quickly(!) but nothing arrived. Eventually a letter from Parcelforce, saying the driver couldn?t find my address ? rubbish, other couriers and utilities service engineers don?t have any trouble. Their helpline produced an interminable menu. A re-delivery was booked and the driver complained that there was no-one at home ? rubbish again, I had stayed in all day. A third attempted delivery was successful, but the driver beat a hasty retreat before I could inform him that that was where I lived. I did discover that he had been the previous courier. >>>>> And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a new service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via internet. Two new handsets arrived, which did not work on my existing router, until I realised that I had been sent one for Halo 3 some time ago. (I thought HALO was an SAS parachute infiltration manoeuvre). So that works, but there is no way of transferring an existing contact list to the new handsets, although it is possible to plug in my old phones to the router. Otherwise it?s a long process to re-type everything, and there is not enough time to do each one, before the handset gets bored and shuts down, so you have to start again. >>>>> Two of my friends, and a neighbour have succumbed to Covid, just recently, my Rheumatology Doc is trying to limit me to one bottle of wine per week ? I ask you! Thus I?m losing the will to live ? but I might hold on until the chocolates arrive from France! >>>>> Pat >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>>> >>>> ? >>>> Graeme Wall >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From graeme.wall at icloud.com Sun Feb 26 03:41:59 2023 From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:41:59 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B3F23C9-B48C-4FFF-A116-6D7A871BC730@icloud.com> i quavered at the thought of saying that in case people got crotchety > On 26 Feb 2023, at 09:03, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > > I don?t think that the McDonalds is still opposite Mozart?s birthplace - unless it?s Haydn. > > Alan > > >> On 26 Feb 2023, at 08:43, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote: >> >> ?And there?s a MacDonalds on the other side of the street from Mozart?s house - or at least there was in 1986! Granted it was a tasteful shade of brown, but I doubt the tastefulness went beyond that concession. >> >> Mike G >> >>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 17:43, John Nottage via Tech1 wrote: >>> >>> ?Did an eclipse with P. Moore & the Sky at Night team, with Mike Winser as the cameraman, in Cornwall years ago. They'd booked a cottage nearby. Mike was doing the cooking & he brought down all the food & drink. He allowed one bottle of wine per person per meal! >>> >>> Alas, I'm restricted do the occasional small glass these days. >>> >>> John Nottage >>> >>>>> On 23/02/2023 16:27, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: >>>> Pat, your local M&S stocks Malteser Easter Bunnies. Have you tried them? Judi has to hide them from me so that I can?t guzzle them all in one go. Those and the M&S Salted Caramel Cookies - I can?t be trusted with them either. Come to think of it, it?s tea and biccy time as I write this?.! >>>> And as for one bottle of wine a week - don?t be ridiculous! >>>> By the way was it you or Martin on Music in Time, the day we couldn?t resist getting the train from Warsaw to Chopin?s birthplace some 45 miles away? Dear Derek Bailey winked at me with his one and only eye as we arrived back late for a shooting opportunity that had cropped up unexpectedly, and just said ?Don?t worry, I?d have done the same!? >>>> N. >>>> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad >>>>>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 15:15, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ?Definitely hang on tlll after the chocolates arrive! >>>>> >>>>>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 14:09, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh Dear, Oh Dear! >>>>>> Pat?s in a mood again!! >>>>>> What is wrong with this country? >>>>>> Cost of living rises ? I?m not surprised. I frequently shop at an M & S Simply Food outlet in a local service station. Yes their food is expensive and today I had forgotten a carrier bag, so was charged 30p for one. Plastic bags used to be rung up at 5p, then it went to 10p ? but 30p? >>>>>> Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? >>>>>> Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong column, forename where the surname should be, and the polling station has changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports hall, much further away. >>>>>> Postal vote from now on, I think. >>>>>> A sweet lass, professional singer, gave me a gift for my 80th of a goodie bag full of delicious chocolate things. I think she collected it from a European engagement. One component was French Florentines ? a scrumptious confection of nuts, nougat, & chocolate. I ordered some more from the manufacturer in France, although the website and order form was in French. The credit card was charged - very quickly(!) but nothing arrived. Eventually a letter from Parcelforce, saying the driver couldn?t find my address ? rubbish, other couriers and utilities service engineers don?t have any trouble. Their helpline produced an interminable menu. A re-delivery was booked and the driver complained that there was no-one at home ? rubbish again, I had stayed in all day. A third attempted delivery was successful, but the driver beat a hasty retreat before I could inform him that that was where I lived. I did discover that he had been the previous courier. >>>>>> And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a new service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via internet. Two new handsets arrived, which did not work on my existing router, until I realised that I had been sent one for Halo 3 some time ago. (I thought HALO was an SAS parachute infiltration manoeuvre). So that works, but there is no way of transferring an existing contact list to the new handsets, although it is possible to plug in my old phones to the router. Otherwise it?s a long process to re-type everything, and there is not enough time to do each one, before the handset gets bored and shuts down, so you have to start again. >>>>>> Two of my friends, and a neighbour have succumbed to Covid, just recently, my Rheumatology Doc is trying to limit me to one bottle of wine per week ? I ask you! Thus I?m losing the will to live ? but I might hold on until the chocolates arrive from France! >>>>>> Pat >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> Graeme Wall >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Sun Feb 26 04:03:39 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 10:03:39 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] General moaning In-Reply-To: <3B3F23C9-B48C-4FFF-A116-6D7A871BC730@icloud.com> References: <3B3F23C9-B48C-4FFF-A116-6D7A871BC730@icloud.com> Message-ID: Let's make it breve chaps! Dave Newbitt. -----Original Message----- From: Graeme Wall via Tech1 Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2023 9:41 AM To: Alan Taylor Cc: Tech ops Subject: Re: [Tech1] General moaning i quavered at the thought of saying that in case people got crotchety > On 26 Feb 2023, at 09:03, Alan Taylor via Tech1 > wrote: > > I don?t think that the McDonalds is still opposite Mozart?s birthplace - > unless it?s Haydn. > > Alan > > >> On 26 Feb 2023, at 08:43, Mike Giles via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> ?And there?s a MacDonalds on the other side of the street from Mozart?s >> house - or at least there was in 1986! Granted it was a tasteful shade of >> brown, but I doubt the tastefulness went beyond that concession. >> >> Mike G >> >>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 17:43, John Nottage via Tech1 >>> wrote: >>> >>> ?Did an eclipse with P. Moore & the Sky at Night team, with Mike Winser >>> as the cameraman, in Cornwall years ago. They'd booked a cottage nearby. >>> Mike was doing the cooking & he brought down all the food & drink. He >>> allowed one bottle of wine per person per meal! >>> >>> Alas, I'm restricted do the occasional small glass these days. >>> >>> John Nottage >>> >>>>> On 23/02/2023 16:27, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: >>>> Pat, your local M&S stocks Malteser Easter Bunnies. Have you tried >>>> them? Judi has to hide them from me so that I can?t guzzle them all in >>>> one go. Those and the M&S Salted Caramel Cookies - I can?t be trusted >>>> with them either. Come to think of it, it?s tea and biccy time as I >>>> write this?.! >>>> And as for one bottle of wine a week - don?t be ridiculous! >>>> By the way was it you or Martin on Music in Time, the day we couldn?t >>>> resist getting the train from Warsaw to Chopin?s birthplace some 45 >>>> miles away? Dear Derek Bailey winked at me with his one and only eye as >>>> we arrived back late for a shooting opportunity that had cropped up >>>> unexpectedly, and just said ?Don?t worry, I?d have done the same!? >>>> N. >>>> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad >>>>>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 15:15, Graeme Wall via Tech1 >>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ?Definitely hang on tlll after the chocolates arrive! >>>>> >>>>>> On 23 Feb 2023, at 14:09, Pat Heigham via Tech1 >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh Dear, Oh Dear! >>>>>> Pat?s in a mood again!! >>>>>> What is wrong with this country? >>>>>> Cost of living rises ? I?m not surprised. I frequently shop at an M & >>>>>> S Simply Food outlet in a local service station. Yes their food is >>>>>> expensive and today I had forgotten a carrier bag, so was charged 30p >>>>>> for one. Plastic bags used to be rung up at 5p, then it went to 10p ? >>>>>> but 30p? >>>>>> Wouldn?t it be an idea that if one shopped again and rendered a bag >>>>>> from a previous visit, you got 30p knocked off the bill? >>>>>> Then, the post delivered a missive to confirm my electoral roll >>>>>> information. The Council managed to get the names in the wrong >>>>>> column, forename where the surname should be, and the polling station >>>>>> has changed ? used to be an easy walk to a Church Hall, now a sports >>>>>> hall, much further away. >>>>>> Postal vote from now on, I think. >>>>>> A sweet lass, professional singer, gave me a gift for my 80th of a >>>>>> goodie bag full of delicious chocolate things. I think she collected >>>>>> it from a European engagement. One component was French Florentines ? >>>>>> a scrumptious confection of nuts, nougat, & chocolate. I ordered some >>>>>> more from the manufacturer in France, although the website and order >>>>>> form was in French. The credit card was charged - very quickly(!) but >>>>>> nothing arrived. Eventually a letter from Parcelforce, saying the >>>>>> driver couldn?t find my address ? rubbish, other couriers and >>>>>> utilities service engineers don?t have any trouble. Their helpline >>>>>> produced an interminable menu. A re-delivery was booked and the >>>>>> driver complained that there was no-one at home ? rubbish again, I >>>>>> had stayed in all day. A third attempted delivery was successful, but >>>>>> the driver beat a hasty retreat before I could inform him that that >>>>>> was where I lived. I did discover that he had been the previous >>>>>> courier. >>>>>> And BT? there had been bad crackling on my landline, so rang up to >>>>>> point out this fault. They managed to persuade me to emigrate to a >>>>>> new service ? Digital Voice, reckoned to be cheaper and runs via >>>>>> internet. Two new handsets arrived, which did not work on my existing >>>>>> router, until I realised that I had been sent one for Halo 3 some >>>>>> time ago. (I thought HALO was an SAS parachute infiltration >>>>>> manoeuvre). So that works, but there is no way of transferring an >>>>>> existing contact list to the new handsets, although it is possible to >>>>>> plug in my old phones to the router. Otherwise it?s a long process to >>>>>> re-type everything, and there is not enough time to do each one, >>>>>> before the handset gets bored and shuts down, so you have to start >>>>>> again. >>>>>> Two of my friends, and a neighbour have succumbed to Covid, just >>>>>> recently, my Rheumatology Doc is trying to limit me to one bottle of >>>>>> wine per week ? I ask you! Thus I?m losing the will to live ? but I >>>>>> might hold on until the chocolates arrive from France! >>>>>> Pat >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> Graeme Wall >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Tech1 mailing list >>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > > -- > Tech1 mailing list > Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk > http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk ? Graeme Wall -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk From j at howell61.f9.co.uk Sun Feb 26 18:57:37 2023 From: j at howell61.f9.co.uk (John Howell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 00:57:37 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] On the footplate (was Heat pumps) In-Reply-To: <4D6AD901-44CB-429D-B6F0-4E979EDAB3F5@icloud.com> References: <4D6AD901-44CB-429D-B6F0-4E979EDAB3F5@icloud.com> Message-ID: Dear Graeme, I supp0se my bottle is not collectable as it is more of a 'fllapper' than a 'waspewaisterd' style. John H. On 25/02/2023 20:08, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote: > If it is a proper wasp waisted coke bottle and not one of the modern versions, they are already highly collectable > >> On 25 Feb 2023, at 19:40, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: >> >> You have to wonder - do you suppose that in a few decades from now, people will collect old Coke bottles and Costa cups thrown out of cars by litter louts, and forever treasure them as I have done with these bottles for so long? >> > ? > Graeme Wall > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0ArUw9nMp1FLalvP.png Type: image/png Size: 3135929 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Mon Feb 27 03:53:15 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 09:53:15 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Today's UK/EU meeting Message-ID: I kept wondering about the venue ? plenty of pictures but no description beyond ?Windsor?. Googled ?mansions in Windsor? and readily identified Fairmont Windsor Park. Why so coy ? is it just because it is a commercial hotel and the media are trying to avoid accusations of advertising? Dave Newbitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From waresound at msn.com Mon Feb 27 05:34:57 2023 From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:34:57 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Today's UK/EU meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Legoland? They probably wouldn?t want to admit to that. Cheers, N. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 27 Feb 2023, at 09:53, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote: ? I kept wondering about the venue ? plenty of pictures but no description beyond ?Windsor?. Googled ?mansions in Windsor? and readily identified Fairmont Windsor Park. Why so coy ? is it just because it is a commercial hotel and the media are trying to avoid accusations of advertising? Dave Newbitt -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk Mon Feb 27 05:50:24 2023 From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:50:24 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Today's UK/EU meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suspect there has been a hope that King Charles would be involved. I get the impression the Palace is trying to avoid that, but maybe having the meeting in "Windsor" keeps the hope - or at least the association - alive. Chris Woolf On 27/02/2023 11:34, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: > Legoland? They probably wouldn?t want to admit to that. > Cheers, > N. > > Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad > >> On 27 Feb 2023, at 09:53, David Newbitt via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> ? >> I kept wondering about the venue ? plenty of pictures but no >> description beyond ?Windsor?. Googled ?mansions in Windsor? and >> readily identified Fairmont Windsor Park. Why so coy ? is it just >> because it is a commercial hotel and the media are trying to avoid >> accusations of advertising? >> Dave Newbitt >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net Mon Feb 27 06:49:11 2023 From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 12:49:11 -0000 Subject: [Tech1] Today's UK/EU meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88F631074AFC4FF6824E76791F319A54@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Perceptions of politically involving Royalty are curious. Ok for Trump, Mugabe etc to meet the Queen but initially not ok for Ursula von der Leyen to meet the King. Eleventh hour rethink ? it seems she will now meet Charles at Windsor for tea. Still time for a U turn if the anti-Euro front runners make enough noise I guess. Dave Newbitt From: Chris Woolf via Tech1 Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 11:50 AM To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: Re: [Tech1] Today's UK/EU meeting I suspect there has been a hope that King Charles would be involved. I get the impression the Palace is trying to avoid that, but maybe having the meeting in "Windsor" keeps the hope - or at least the association - alive. Chris Woolf On 27/02/2023 11:34, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: Legoland? They probably wouldn?t want to admit to that. Cheers, N. Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad On 27 Feb 2023, at 09:53, David Newbitt via Tech1 mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote: ? I kept wondering about the venue ? plenty of pictures but no description beyond ?Windsor?. Googled ?mansions in Windsor? and readily identified Fairmont Windsor Park. Why so coy ? is it just because it is a commercial hotel and the media are trying to avoid accusations of advertising? Dave Newbitt -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tech1 mailing list Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanaudio at me.com Mon Feb 27 07:00:29 2023 From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 13:00:29 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Today's UK/EU meeting In-Reply-To: <88F631074AFC4FF6824E76791F319A54@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> References: <88F631074AFC4FF6824E76791F319A54@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From plowmandave44 at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 10:30:43 2023 From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2023 16:30:43 +0000 Subject: [Tech1] Today's UK/EU meeting In-Reply-To: References: <88F631074AFC4FF6824E76791F319A54@DESKTOP6GGCRV1> Message-ID: <8e368e3f-4758-3119-bad3-d990a2d539b9@gmail.com> Probably the only way she can get past our stringent border controls. I'm told. On 27/02/2023 13:00, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote: > I was pleased to read that Uschi von der Leyen travelled to Britain by > Eurostar. ?Our PM insists on using helicopters and private jets even for > quite short journeys within the UK. > > Alan > > >> On 27 Feb 2023, at 12:49, David Newbitt via Tech1 >> wrote: >> >> ? >> Perceptions of politically involving Royalty are curious. Ok for >> Trump, Mugabe etc to meet the Queen but initially not ok for Ursula >> von der Leyen to meet the King. Eleventh hour rethink ? it seems she >> will now meet Charles at Windsor for tea. Still time for a U turn if >> the anti-Euro front runners make enough noise I guess. >> Dave Newbitt >> *From:* Chris Woolf via Tech1 >> *Sent:* Monday, February 27, 2023 11:50 AM >> *To:* tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Today's UK/EU meeting >> >> I suspect there has been a hope that King Charles would be involved. I >> get the impression the Palace is trying to avoid that, but maybe >> having the meeting in "Windsor" keeps the hope - or at least the >> association - alive. >> >> Chris Woolf >> >> On 27/02/2023 11:34, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote: >>> Legoland? They probably wouldn?t want to admit to that. >>> Cheers, >>> N. >>> >>> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On 27 Feb 2023, at 09:53, David Newbitt via Tech1 >>>> mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote: >>>> >>>> ? >>>> I kept wondering about the venue ? plenty of pictures but no >>>> description beyond ?Windsor?. Googled ?mansions in Windsor? and >>>> readily identified Fairmont Windsor Park. Why so coy ? is it just >>>> because it is a commercial hotel and the media are trying to avoid >>>> accusations of advertising? >>>> Dave Newbitt >>>> -- >>>> Tech1 mailing list >>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >> -- >> Tech1 mailing list >> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk >> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk >