From rerb2 at cam.ac.uk  Fri Dec  2 06:16:53 2022
From: rerb2 at cam.ac.uk (R.E.R. Bunce)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 12:16:53 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Merry Christmas
Message-ID: <LO0P265MB3948301B50CF10201244646BBC179@LO0P265MB3948.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Dear All,

Merry Christmas! I found this among my Dad's things and thought you might like to have a copy. High-Res copies available on request.

Wishing you well,

Robin
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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Fri Dec  2 06:25:47 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 12:25:47 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Merry Christmas
In-Reply-To: <LO0P265MB3948301B50CF10201244646BBC179@LO0P265MB3948.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <LO0P265MB3948301B50CF10201244646BBC179@LO0P265MB3948.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <4505A94781AE477697E5EE370427F2D2@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Another reminder of his genius! I?d love an HD copy.

And season?s greetings to you!

Dave Newbitt.

From: R.E.R. Bunce via Tech1 
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2022 12:16 PM
To: Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
Subject: [Tech1] Merry Christmas

Dear All,

Merry Christmas! I found this among my Dad's things and thought you might like to have a copy. High-Res copies available on request.

Wishing you well,

Robin


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From geoffletch at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 07:46:04 2022
From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 13:46:04 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Merry Christmas
In-Reply-To: <4505A94781AE477697E5EE370427F2D2@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <LO0P265MB3948301B50CF10201244646BBC179@LO0P265MB3948.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<4505A94781AE477697E5EE370427F2D2@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <CAB99AB_m+rj0ipUjxd80DGSVfmtmn85BcUSbyQQnzkHnKo=oaA@mail.gmail.com>

Brilliant! So typical of Roger. Happy Xmas Robin.
Geoff F

On Fri, 2 Dec 2022 at 12:26, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
wrote:

> Another reminder of his genius! I?d love an HD copy.
>
> And season?s greetings to you!
>
> Dave Newbitt.
>
> *From:* R.E.R. Bunce via Tech1
> *Sent:* Friday, December 2, 2022 12:16 PM
> *To:* Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> *Subject:* [Tech1] Merry Christmas
>
> Dear All,
>
> Merry Christmas! I found this among my Dad's things and thought you might
> like to have a copy. High-Res copies available on request.
>
> Wishing you well,
>
> Robin
>
> ------------------------------
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 12:31:07 2022
From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 18:31:07 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Telegram messenger
Message-ID: <82F02336-DA60-456C-A2A0-8890B4B44265@gmail.com>

Do any of you use the messenger app, Telegram? I?d never heard of it till recently and when I looked into it, it says it can access all sorts of data about the user, including financial transactions and contacts. That sounds pretty intrusive and makes me wonder if it?s too risky to get involved with?

Geoff Hawkes


Geoff

From philiptyler at me.com  Fri Dec  2 12:57:07 2022
From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 18:57:07 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Telegram messenger
In-Reply-To: <82F02336-DA60-456C-A2A0-8890B4B44265@gmail.com>
References: <82F02336-DA60-456C-A2A0-8890B4B44265@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0AC3CB59-D428-4362-B96E-46426F0774E0@me.com>

I use Telegram primarily as it has nothing to do with the Mark Zuckerberg empire. Been using it for 4 years or more with no problems.

On the other hand Messenger tries to take over and apparently listens to your conversations, unless you shut it down and not have it in the background. A couple of my Rammstein friends had this happen. They were talking about mountain bikes, with messenger running in the background. They then got lots of adverts for mountain bikes. I think this may have been disabled now as there were complaints. Although Facebook deny it.

Another messaging app is Signal, as used by Boris and his mates. Why? Because you can delete messages completely.

Philip and Bee

https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/

> On 2 Dec 2022, at 18:32, Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?Do any of you use the messenger app, Telegram? I?d never heard of it till recently and when I looked into it, it says it can access all sorts of data about the user, including financial transactions and contacts. That sounds pretty intrusive and makes me wonder if it?s too risky to get involved with?
> 
> Geoff Hawkes
> 
> 
> Geoff
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 05:30:28 2022
From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 11:30:28 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Agatha Christie mystery!!!
Message-ID: <54f81aeb-6633-9943-5ee3-a53b839b10d7@gmail.com>

Hi everyone

Now here is a real Agatha Christie Mystery!

In the programme "Agatha Christie Lucy Worsley on the Mystery Queen" 
episode 2, when Lucy Worsley is in Harrogate, she is wearing a red dress 
with black spots, buttons on her right shoulder , gathers on her left 
shoulder, and her hair is parted on her right hand side.

 ?? When Lucy Worsley is NOT in Harrogate, and she is wearing the same 
red dress with black spots, the buttons are on her left shoulder, the 
gathers are on her right shoulder and her hair is parted on her left 
hand side.


This hair parting is consistently on her left hand side for the rest of 
the? programme.

(f you would like a check on this, I have? two smallish video clips I 
could send you : you can see that I have not reversed these images 
myself!?? Or just go to iPlayer.....)


Now,

1.? Am I missing some important clue in the fact that the Harrogate 
sequences are mirrored?


2.?? Was this a deliberate attempt by the film-makers to create a sense 
of Brechtian audience alienation ("verfrendungseffekt"


3.? If it was a genuine error, why was it not picked up in Post??? It 
could have been reversed (mirrored) during the edit, surely...


4. Or was it just lack of standards allied to absolute incompetence?


I want to know ....

Who dunnit?




-- 
=======

Alec Bray

alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
Mob:  07789 561 346
Tel:  0118 981 7502
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From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 05:32:05 2022
From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 11:32:05 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Agatha Christie Mystery!!
Message-ID: <c31d2a81-43ed-bb10-b9a4-975edcc31b8a@gmail.com>

Hi everyone

Now here is a real Agatha Christie Mystery!

In the programme "Agatha Christie Lucy Worsley on the Mystery Queen" 
episode 2, when Lucy Worsley is in Harrogate, she is wearing a red dress 
with black spots, buttons on her right shoulder , gathers on her left 
shoulder, and her hair is parted on her right hand side.

 ?? When Lucy Worsley is NOT in Harrogate, and she is wearing the same 
red dress with black spots, the buttons are on her left shoulder, the 
gathers are on her right shoulder and her hair is parted on her left 
hand side.


This hair parting is consistently on her left hand side for the rest of 
the? programme.

(f you would like a check on this, I have? two smallish video clips I 
could send you : you can see that I have not reversed these images 
myself!?? Or go to iPlayer.....)


Now,

1.? Am I missing some important clue in the fact that the Harrogate 
sequences are mirrored?


2.?? Was this a deliberate attempt by the film-makers to create a sense 
of Brechtian audience alienation ("verfrendungseffekt"


3.? If it was a genuine error, why was it not picked up in Post??? It 
could have been reversed (mirrored) during the edit, surely...


4. Or was it just lack of standards allied to absolute incompetence?


I want to know ....

Who dunnit?




-- 
=======

Alec Bray

alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
Mob:  07789 561 346
Tel:  0118 981 7502
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Sat Dec  3 05:42:03 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 11:42:03 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Agatha Christie Mystery!!
In-Reply-To: <c31d2a81-43ed-bb10-b9a4-975edcc31b8a@gmail.com>
References: <c31d2a81-43ed-bb10-b9a4-975edcc31b8a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8791d925-c62a-76a4-89dd-90695747429c@amps.net>

Maybe the non-Harrogate shot was via a mirror?

I recall a shot of Roger Moore, as Bond, seen in a mirror. It looked 
like a completely different guy.
At least Lucy is symmetrical.

Pat


On 03/12/2022 11:32, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote:
>
> Hi everyone
>
> Now here is a real Agatha Christie Mystery!
>
> In the programme "Agatha Christie Lucy Worsley on the Mystery Queen" 
> episode 2, when Lucy Worsley is in Harrogate, she is wearing a red 
> dress with black spots, buttons on her right shoulder , gathers on her 
> left shoulder, and her hair is parted on her right hand side.
>
> ?? When Lucy Worsley is NOT in Harrogate, and she is wearing the same 
> red dress with black spots, the buttons are on her left shoulder, the 
> gathers are on her right shoulder and her hair is parted on her left 
> hand side.
>
>
> This hair parting is consistently on her left hand side for the rest 
> of the? programme.
>
> (f you would like a check on this, I have? two smallish video clips I 
> could send you : you can see that I have not reversed these images 
> myself!?? Or go to iPlayer.....)
>
>
> Now,
>
> 1.? Am I missing some important clue in the fact that the Harrogate 
> sequences are mirrored?
>
>
> 2.?? Was this a deliberate attempt by the film-makers to create a 
> sense of Brechtian audience alienation ("verfrendungseffekt"
>
>
> 3.? If it was a genuine error, why was it not picked up in Post??? It 
> could have been reversed (mirrored) during the edit, surely...
>
>
> 4. Or was it just lack of standards allied to absolute incompetence?
>
>
> I want to know ....
>
> Who dunnit?
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> =======
>
> Alec Bray
>
> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
> Mob:  07789 561 346
> Tel:  0118 981 7502
>
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From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Sat Dec  3 05:43:59 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 11:43:59 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Agatha Christie mystery!!!
In-Reply-To: <54f81aeb-6633-9943-5ee3-a53b839b10d7@gmail.com>
References: <54f81aeb-6633-9943-5ee3-a53b839b10d7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91BD9F4F-0862-4174-A6A2-2F874B073BFA@icloud.com>

Quick check shows that she normally parts her hair on the left, I wonder why they reversed the shots in Harrogate. Or was the editor secretly wondering whether the director would notice!

> On 3 Dec 2022, at 11:30, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone 
> Now here is a real Agatha Christie Mystery!
> In the programme "Agatha Christie Lucy Worsley on the Mystery Queen" episode 2, when Lucy Worsley is in Harrogate, she is wearing a red dress with black spots, buttons on her right shoulder , gathers on her left shoulder, and her hair is parted on her right hand side.
> <GK0RDxis2Uqc9rrP.png>   When Lucy Worsley is NOT in Harrogate, and she is wearing the same red dress with black spots, the buttons are on her left shoulder, the gathers are on her right shoulder and her hair is parted on her left hand side.
> <Ql700EqbnDbLXblC.png>
> This hair parting is consistently on her left hand side for the rest of the  programme. 
> (f you would like a check on this, I have  two smallish video clips I could send you : you can see that I have not reversed these images myself!   Or just go to iPlayer.....)
> 
> Now,
> 1.  Am I missing some important clue in the fact that the Harrogate sequences are mirrored? 
> 
> 2.   Was this a deliberate attempt by the film-makers to create a sense of Brechtian audience alienation ("verfrendungseffekt"
> 
> 3.  If it was a genuine error, why was it not picked up in Post?   It could have been reversed (mirrored) during the edit, surely...
> 
> 4. Or was it just lack of standards allied to absolute incompetence?
> 
> I want to know ....
> Who dunnit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> =======
> 
> Alec Bray
> 
> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
> Mob: 07789 561 346
> Tel: 0118 981 7502
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Sat Dec  3 05:47:35 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 11:47:35 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Agatha Christie Mystery!!
In-Reply-To: <c31d2a81-43ed-bb10-b9a4-975edcc31b8a@gmail.com>
References: <c31d2a81-43ed-bb10-b9a4-975edcc31b8a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2d7ff32-f0a7-b8aa-008f-5e5fef243e6a@chriswoolf.co.uk>

My preference is for Lucy Worsley to be reversed front to back, and the 
sound turned down;}

Every programme she does has to be about LW, rather than the subject she 
is supposedly dealing with.

Chris W


On 03/12/2022 11:32, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote:
>
> Hi everyone
>
> Now here is a real Agatha Christie Mystery!
>
> In the programme "Agatha Christie Lucy Worsley on the Mystery Queen" 
> episode 2, when Lucy Worsley is in Harrogate, she is wearing a red 
> dress with black spots, buttons on her right shoulder , gathers on her 
> left shoulder, and her hair is parted on her right hand side.
>
> ?? When Lucy Worsley is NOT in Harrogate, and she is wearing the same 
> red dress with black spots, the buttons are on her left shoulder, the 
> gathers are on her right shoulder and her hair is parted on her left 
> hand side.
>
>
> This hair parting is consistently on her left hand side for the rest 
> of the? programme.
>
> (f you would like a check on this, I have? two smallish video clips I 
> could send you : you can see that I have not reversed these images 
> myself!?? Or go to iPlayer.....)
>
>
> Now,
>
> 1.? Am I missing some important clue in the fact that the Harrogate 
> sequences are mirrored?
>
>
> 2.?? Was this a deliberate attempt by the film-makers to create a 
> sense of Brechtian audience alienation ("verfrendungseffekt"
>
>
> 3.? If it was a genuine error, why was it not picked up in Post??? It 
> could have been reversed (mirrored) during the edit, surely...
>
>
> 4. Or was it just lack of standards allied to absolute incompetence?
>
>
> I want to know ....
>
> Who dunnit?
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> =======
>
> Alec Bray
>
> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
> Mob:  07789 561 346
> Tel:  0118 981 7502
>
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From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 06:56:54 2022
From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 12:56:54 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Agatha Christie Mystery!!
In-Reply-To: <8791d925-c62a-76a4-89dd-90695747429c@amps.net>
References: <c31d2a81-43ed-bb10-b9a4-975edcc31b8a@gmail.com>
	<8791d925-c62a-76a4-89dd-90695747429c@amps.net>
Message-ID: <4e4ef3f7-d385-b794-4891-58440903f473@gmail.com>

Hi Pat (et al)

On 03/12/2022 11:42, Pat Heigham wrote:
> Maybe the Harrogate shot was via a mirror?

No!? That would be cool - Lucy holding a mirror up to Agatha Christie, 
but no... check on iPlayer!!

Best regards,

Alec


-- 
=======

Alec Bray

alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
Mob:  07789 561 346
Tel:  0118 981 7502
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From davidvbrunt at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 07:08:17 2022
From: davidvbrunt at gmail.com (David Brunt)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 13:08:17 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Agatha Christie Mystery!!
In-Reply-To: <4e4ef3f7-d385-b794-4891-58440903f473@gmail.com>
References: <c31d2a81-43ed-bb10-b9a4-975edcc31b8a@gmail.com>
	<8791d925-c62a-76a4-89dd-90695747429c@amps.net>
	<4e4ef3f7-d385-b794-4891-58440903f473@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFKgnyyXOj7gta1h+A3XESCARccK5AxEOEyW5z7yykW4aUDPRw@mail.gmail.com>

Extremely subtle 'They Do It With Mirrors' reference, perhaps?


On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 at 12:57, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi Pat (et al)
>
> On 03/12/2022 11:42, Pat Heigham wrote:
>
> Maybe the Harrogate shot was via a mirror?
>
> No!  That would be cool - Lucy holding a mirror up to Agatha Christie, but no... check on iPlayer!!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Alec
>
>
> --
> =======
>
> Alec Bray
>
> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
> Mob:  07789 561 346
> Tel:  0118 981 7502
>
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 09:13:57 2022
From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 15:13:57 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
Message-ID: <8f02e721-10d6-e4bd-7354-4f688a430f40@gmail.com>

Hello Everyone,

As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator 
and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech 
Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.

For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I 
remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as 
"Softly, Softly".


http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf


It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional 
"crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those 
days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in 
the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that 
crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!

As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... 
hmmmm...? some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one 
picture.? Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!

I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first 
drafts:? Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.? But above all I 
would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough 
review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank 
you!?? Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.?? If you find 
any errors, please let me know ...

It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was 
closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the 
BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...


(I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live 
"Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second 
series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had counted 
those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first 
_two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)


I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting 
about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan 
will be very pleased to receive and use them.


Keep focussed and attuned,

Best regards,

Alec

-- 
=======

Alec Bray

alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
Mob:  07789 561 346
Tel:  0118 981 7502
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From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Tue Dec  6 09:34:24 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 15:34:24 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <8f02e721-10d6-e4bd-7354-4f688a430f40@gmail.com>
References: <8f02e721-10d6-e4bd-7354-4f688a430f40@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8A59A3C9-F2B8-48E3-B5F2-8F613C689CF3@icloud.com>

That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!

> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
> For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly". 
> 
> http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf
> 
> It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
> As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
> I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
> It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...
> 
> (I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)
> 
> I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.
> 
> Keep focussed and attuned,
> Best regards,
> Alec
> -- 
> =======
> 
> Alec Bray
> 
> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
> Mob: 07789 561 346
> Tel: 0118 981 7502
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From pat.heigham at amps.net  Tue Dec  6 09:37:53 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 15:37:53 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Celebrations
Message-ID: <26d563c4-511c-3a78-69c7-85e128fad32c@amps.net>

Having just celebrated my 80th, at a well organised venue, I was 
reminded of a much earlier occasion.
A ladyfriend knew I loved Latin American music, so took me to the 
Edmundo Ros club in Regent Street for a birthday treat.
I was disappointed in the band sound and mentioned it to the concierge: 
"Oh! We augment for broadcast and recordings - sir!"

So session guys in, to make it sound good!

Another fishy thing - having disposed of a bottle of wine, we fancied a 
G & T. They brough a full bottle of Gordons with a graduated
sticker on the side. "Only pay for what you have - sir!"
Deciding to drink to the next graduation, my hand went to the bottle, to 
have a waiter swoop in grab the bottle and emptied another four measures 
each:
'Glug, glug'.

When it came to assessing the bill, the waiter carefully aligned the 
bottle to determine the graduation comsumption, but I couldn't help but 
wonder
if the table was artificially levelled out of true, so the liquid level 
read more consumed than actual.

When shooting on a film in a real London nightclub, used as a set, the 
cleaning crew had left the wine list on the tables - I took a peek:
A bottle of champagne (probably Prosecco) was ?800.

For Saudi Princes on a jaunt - just pocket money!

Pat
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From bernie833 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 09:39:30 2022
From: bernie833 at gmail.com (Bernard Newnham)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 15:39:30 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Annual In Memoriam
Message-ID: <b79ce8b1-b18c-48a8-693d-51d24f79a2c6@gmail.com>


Fw: From Toby Hadoke? - Please reply direct to Toby

Hello,


As some of you may be aware, I do an annual In Memoriam video featuring 
anyone who passed away in the preceding year who worked on Doctor Who. 
It?s become a bit of a tradition and is done only with the most 
honourable intentions - the likes of Margot Hayhoe, June Hudson and 
Bernie Newnham will, I hope, vouch for me. I may even be able to get 
some of these guys into the radio show I do on 4 Extra at the end of the 
year although the powers that be tend to favour actors for that : I will 
do my best though. I gave Roger Bunce and a couple of others a nod last 
year.


I have a list of whom I think I should be featuring but there may well 
be some I have missed so - if you think any of your former colleagues 
who died this year worked on Doctor Who and aren?t on this list please 
let me know. It?s a visual presentation too, and so photographs are 
always helpful. I have indicated those for whom I don?t have photos at 
all but to be honest even if I have photos I could always do with more 
options. So if you have any that you?d be happy for me to use then 
please let me know. You would, of course, be credited and would get my 
eternal thanks.


Here?s last year?s as an example:

https://tobyhadoke.com/doctor-who-in-memoriam-2021/ 
<https://tobyhadoke.com/doctor-who-in-memoriam-2021/>


Here?s my current list (the job descriptions are of the roles they 
fulfilled on Doctor Who which is all I need for my purposes):


Some Photos:

Ash Wilkinson - Assistant Designer

John Brace - VFX

Raquel Ebbutt - Director?s Assistant

David Hughes - Sound Supervisor

Ian D Tootle - Assistant Floor Manager

Perry Brahan - VFX

Clive Leighton - Lighting

Derrick Goodwin - Director


No Photos :

MAC Adams - Film Editor

Gavin Birkett - Floor Assistant


I have lots of actors and writers to feature as well of course, but I 
have them covered, thank you.
I can be emailed at thadoke at yahoo.co.uk

Happy Times And Places,
Toby

Toby Hadoke - actor, writer, comedian
www.tobyhadoke.com (website and blog)

Personal mobile : 07900 424944 (but if it's about work please see below 
: they're more efficient than me)

For writing,
Laura Rourke at The Independent Talent Group: 
laurarourke at independenttalent.com
*T: +44 (0)20 7636 6565*

For stand-up,
Dean Feasby at Gag Reflex: dean at gagreflex.co.uk
T. 0161 205 8739
M. 07599 554191

For acting,
Carolyn Cutler at Patrick Hambleton Management:
020 7993 5412
carolyn at phm.uk.com

For voice overs,
The Voiceover Gallery:
0161 881 8844
manchester at thevoiceovergallery.co.uk

texh1
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  8 03:56:13 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 09:56:13 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Digitally altered.
Message-ID: <aef89e8e-b9b5-1c3a-e5df-96e1f3abc1a6@gmail.com>

Watched a documentary about AA last night on BBC2. Now one of the main 
principles of AA is anonymity. Which can make things tricky to make a 
convincing documentary. And instead of using actors - or blurring faces 
- the main interviewees had their faces 'digitally altered' Anyone know 
how this was done? It looked pretty seamless here. Although they were 
all covered in a single MS - no CUs etc that you'd expect on such a 
sensitive interview.


From pat.heigham at amps.net  Thu Dec  8 04:14:08 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 10:14:08 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Digitally altered
In-Reply-To: <aIW1-tx2QgGKpi07g7736A@geopod-ismtpd-5-0>
References: <aIW1-tx2QgGKpi07g7736A@geopod-ismtpd-5-0>
Message-ID: <c868a041-a81c-7b85-1400-078083708ffa@amps.net>

 ?Forwarded, is a programme available to the non-technical public. (came 
in to me today)
 ?Guess that anything can be manipulated, now.

Maybe the Police Identikit can be used to put _your _face in, so expect 
to be hauled in for questioning for heinous offences!

Pat



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From peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk  Thu Dec  8 04:20:47 2022
From: peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk (Peter Fox)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 10:20:47 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Digitally altered.
In-Reply-To: <aef89e8e-b9b5-1c3a-e5df-96e1f3abc1a6@gmail.com>
References: <aef89e8e-b9b5-1c3a-e5df-96e1f3abc1a6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F70AABC5-5359-4CFE-8AAB-5F3A797A9310@zero51.force9.co.uk>

There's an article in New Scientist about the BBC using AI to generate disguised faces. They resist calling  it "deep fake" because of the baggage that goes with that concept but that's what it is. Faces are derived from actors creating a suitable library thus enabling the disguised faces to follow the expressions and mouth work and mannerisms of the originals. A recent effort was interviewing people from Hong Kong. 

Peter Fox

On 8 Dec 2022, at 09:56, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?Watched a documentary about AA last night on BBC2. Now one of the main principles of AA is anonymity. Which can make things tricky to make a convincing documentary. And instead of using actors - or blurring faces - the main interviewees had their faces 'digitally altered' Anyone know how this was done? It looked pretty seamless here. Although they were all covered in a single MS - no CUs etc that you'd expect on such a sensitive interview.

-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From alanaudio at me.com  Thu Dec  8 04:39:23 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 10:39:23 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Digitally altered.
Message-ID: <EC4EB698-60D3-4D23-9366-0160FB436FDC@me.com>

It?s also worth noting that earlier this week, when Ch4 showed the dissection of a young woman who had died or a very rare cancer, they used ?deepfake? techniques to use her voice to tell her story long after she had passed away.

I thought that particular programme handled a very challenging topic in a positive and sensitive manner. However, now that producers can digitally manipulate the visual image and make people appear to say things that they never actually said, there are huge ethical issues which need to be addressed. I?m pretty sure that some productions will over step the mark before long, it?s just too tempting.

Alan





> On 8 Dec 2022, at 10:21, Peter Fox via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 


From alanaudio at me.com  Fri Dec  9 02:43:12 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 08:43:12 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <8A59A3C9-F2B8-48E3-B5F2-8F613C689CF3@icloud.com>
References: <8A59A3C9-F2B8-48E3-B5F2-8F613C689CF3@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <314CE0DE-E66B-4E3D-BDA6-09B0E8EA6B8A@me.com>

That?s a terrific account of a time which can claim to be BBC TV?s Golden Years.  It would have been impressive merely to document in that sort of detail the technical and operational aspects of doing such a drama, but you also included massive amounts of information regarding what goes on behind the scenes.  Everything from printing scripts through to catering, not forgetting the soft soled shoe allowance.

The Tech Ops archive is fortunate to be enriched by such a comprehensive account and my congratulations to Alec and those who helped to make it happen.  I would like to think that if anybody was going to write a script for a programme which includes scenes in a 1960s TV studio, this account would be essential reading to provide a wealth of detail which might otherwise have been overlooked.

One thing which Alec touched upon is that photography was frowned upon and staff rarely took photographs in studios.  However, many of us did take some pictures during the course of our work.  How about dusting off some of those shoe boxes, sifting through the pictures and posting them on the group?  Even quite mundane pictures often include details which prompt discussion, or include people remembered by others.  

Few of us are likely to be able to write an account of the breadth and quality which Alec has done, but most of us have pictures, maybe hundreds or even thousands of photographs. How about sharing some with the group and adding to the archive?

Alan


> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!
> 
>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Everyone,
>> As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
>> For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly". 
>> 
>> http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf
>> 
>> It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
>> As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
>> I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
>> It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...
>> 
>> (I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)
>> 
>> I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.
>> 
>> Keep focussed and attuned,
>> Best regards,
>> Alec
>> -- 
>> =======
>> 
>> Alec Bray
>> 
>> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
>> Mob: 07789 561 346
>> Tel: 0118 981 7502
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> 
> ? 
> Graeme Wall
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Fri Dec  9 03:03:00 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 09:03:00 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <314CE0DE-E66B-4E3D-BDA6-09B0E8EA6B8A@me.com>
References: <8A59A3C9-F2B8-48E3-B5F2-8F613C689CF3@icloud.com>
	<314CE0DE-E66B-4E3D-BDA6-09B0E8EA6B8A@me.com>
Message-ID: <3B1BDBEE-052C-42D0-8AA4-5D33DF65356E@icloud.com>

Tomorrows World, TC7 around 1975, taken from the back of the mole! (I was swinging)

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> On 9 Dec 2022, at 08:43, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> That?s a terrific account of a time which can claim to be BBC TV?s Golden Years.  It would have been impressive merely to document in that sort of detail the technical and operational aspects of doing such a drama, but you also included massive amounts of information regarding what goes on behind the scenes.  Everything from printing scripts through to catering, not forgetting the soft soled shoe allowance.
> 
> The Tech Ops archive is fortunate to be enriched by such a comprehensive account and my congratulations to Alec and those who helped to make it happen.  I would like to think that if anybody was going to write a script for a programme which includes scenes in a 1960s TV studio, this account would be essential reading to provide a wealth of detail which might otherwise have been overlooked.
> 
> One thing which Alec touched upon is that photography was frowned upon and staff rarely took photographs in studios.  However, many of us did take some pictures during the course of our work.  How about dusting off some of those shoe boxes, sifting through the pictures and posting them on the group?  Even quite mundane pictures often include details which prompt discussion, or include people remembered by others.  
> 
> Few of us are likely to be able to write an account of the breadth and quality which Alec has done, but most of us have pictures, maybe hundreds or even thousands of photographs. How about sharing some with the group and adding to the archive?
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!
>> 
>>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>> As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
>>> For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly". 
>>> 
>>> http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf
>>> 
>>> It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
>>> As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
>>> I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
>>> It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...
>>> 
>>> (I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)
>>> 
>>> I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.
>>> 
>>> Keep focussed and attuned,
>>> Best regards,
>>> Alec
>>> -- 
>>> =======
>>> 
>>> Alec Bray
>>> 
>>> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
>>> Mob: 07789 561 346
>>> Tel: 0118 981 7502
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> 
>> ? 
>> Graeme Wall
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall



From hughsheppard at btinternet.com  Fri Dec  9 03:35:10 2022
From: hughsheppard at btinternet.com (Hugh Sheppard)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 09:35:10 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <314CE0DE-E66B-4E3D-BDA6-09B0E8EA6B8A@me.com>
References: <8A59A3C9-F2B8-48E3-B5F2-8F613C689CF3@icloud.com>
	<314CE0DE-E66B-4E3D-BDA6-09B0E8EA6B8A@me.com>
Message-ID: <dee9513c-95c3-22bb-e3fc-13414702d086@btinternet.com>

As a claimant to having cleared cables on the first Z-Cars and 
negotiated the thickets to Camera 3 on Crew 6 after working on 120 eps 
(before being demoted to a P.A. in TV Pres.) this epistle represents all 
my own yesterdays in Hi-Def Colour. Without any photographic proof of 'I 
was there' apart from the group photo after Ep. 100 (attached), thank 
you for re-living those days in such detail.

Is there anyone else out there who was in the photo too?? [I'm against 
the black background - 2 above 'Barlow'].

Hugh

On 09/12/2022 08:43, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
> That?s a terrific account of a time which can claim to be BBC TV?s Golden Years.  It would have been impressive merely to document in that sort of detail the technical and operational aspects of doing such a drama, but you also included massive amounts of information regarding what goes on behind the scenes.  Everything from printing scripts through to catering, not forgetting the soft soled shoe allowance.
>
> The Tech Ops archive is fortunate to be enriched by such a comprehensive account and my congratulations to Alec and those who helped to make it happen.  I would like to think that if anybody was going to write a script for a programme which includes scenes in a 1960s TV studio, this account would be essential reading to provide a wealth of detail which might otherwise have been overlooked.
>
> One thing which Alec touched upon is that photography was frowned upon and staff rarely took photographs in studios.  However, many of us did take some pictures during the course of our work.  How about dusting off some of those shoe boxes, sifting through the pictures and posting them on the group?  Even quite mundane pictures often include details which prompt discussion, or include people remembered by others.
>
> Few of us are likely to be able to write an account of the breadth and quality which Alec has done, but most of us have pictures, maybe hundreds or even thousands of photographs. How about sharing some with the group and adding to the archive?
>
> Alan
>
>
>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>
>> ?That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!
>>
>>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>> As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
>>> For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly".
>>>
>>> http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf
>>>
>>> It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
>>> As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
>>> I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
>>> It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...
>>>
>>> (I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)
>>>
>>> I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.
>>>
>>> Keep focussed and attuned,
>>> Best regards,
>>> Alec
>>> -- 
>>> =======
>>>
>>> Alec Bray
>>>
>>> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
>>> Mob: 07789 561 346
>>> Tel: 0118 981 7502
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> ?
>> Graeme Wall
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From davidvbrunt at gmail.com  Fri Dec  9 04:14:35 2022
From: davidvbrunt at gmail.com (David Brunt)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 10:14:35 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <dee9513c-95c3-22bb-e3fc-13414702d086@btinternet.com>
References: <8A59A3C9-F2B8-48E3-B5F2-8F613C689CF3@icloud.com>
	<314CE0DE-E66B-4E3D-BDA6-09B0E8EA6B8A@me.com>
	<dee9513c-95c3-22bb-e3fc-13414702d086@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>

Are you certain that photo's from the 100th, because that's Geoffrey
Whitehead on the right with Leonard Lewis a couple to his left. They didn't
arrive until the following year.

Could it be the 150th episode in May 1965?

David


On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 09:35, Hugh Sheppard via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
wrote:

> As a claimant to having cleared cables on the first Z-Cars and negotiated
> the thickets to Camera 3 on Crew 6 after working on 120 eps (before being
> demoted to a P.A. in TV Pres.) this epistle represents all my own
> yesterdays in Hi-Def Colour. Without any photographic proof of 'I was
> there' apart from the group photo after Ep. 100 (attached), thank you for
> re-living those days in such detail.
>
> Is there anyone else out there who was in the photo too?  [I'm against the
> black background - 2 above 'Barlow'].
>
> Hugh
> On 09/12/2022 08:43, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
>
> That?s a terrific account of a time which can claim to be BBC TV?s Golden Years.  It would have been impressive merely to document in that sort of detail the technical and operational aspects of doing such a drama, but you also included massive amounts of information regarding what goes on behind the scenes.  Everything from printing scripts through to catering, not forgetting the soft soled shoe allowance.
>
> The Tech Ops archive is fortunate to be enriched by such a comprehensive account and my congratulations to Alec and those who helped to make it happen.  I would like to think that if anybody was going to write a script for a programme which includes scenes in a 1960s TV studio, this account would be essential reading to provide a wealth of detail which might otherwise have been overlooked.
>
> One thing which Alec touched upon is that photography was frowned upon and staff rarely took photographs in studios.  However, many of us did take some pictures during the course of our work.  How about dusting off some of those shoe boxes, sifting through the pictures and posting them on the group?  Even quite mundane pictures often include details which prompt discussion, or include people remembered by others.
>
> Few of us are likely to be able to write an account of the breadth and quality which Alec has done, but most of us have pictures, maybe hundreds or even thousands of photographs. How about sharing some with the group and adding to the archive?
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
> ?That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!
>
>
> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone,
> As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
> For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly".
> http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf
>
> It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
> As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
> I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
> It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...
>
> (I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)
>
> I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.
>
> Keep focussed and attuned,
> Best regards,
> Alec
> --
> =======
>
> Alec Bray
> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
> Mob: 07789 561 346
> Tel: 0118 981 7502
> --
> Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
> ?
> Graeme Wall
>
>
>
> --
> Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From alanaudio at me.com  Fri Dec  9 04:33:59 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 10:33:59 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D3F11B23-A6FC-46DA-9D30-BFC691D93212@me.com>

This looks like an obvious candidate for a picture having all the heads numbered so that they can be identified and named for posterity.

It could be that more than one person might be doing so.  To avoid confusion or duplication of effort, I would suggest that anybody planning to do says announces their intention, otherwise we might end up with two differently numbered pictures.

Any takers?

Alan


> On 9 Dec 2022, at 10:15, David Brunt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Are you certain that photo's from the 100th, because that's Geoffrey Whitehead on the right with Leonard Lewis a couple to his left. They didn't arrive until the following year.
> 
> Could it be the 150th episode in May 1965?
> 
> David
> 
> 
>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 09:35, Hugh Sheppard via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> As a claimant to having cleared cables on the first Z-Cars and negotiated the thickets to Camera 3 on Crew 6 after working on 120 eps (before being demoted to a P.A. in TV Pres.) this epistle represents all my own yesterdays in Hi-Def Colour. Without any photographic proof of 'I was there' apart from the group photo after Ep. 100 (attached), thank you for re-living those days in such detail.
>> 
>> Is there anyone else out there who was in the photo too?  [I'm against the black background - 2 above 'Barlow'].
>> 
>> 
>> Hugh  
>> 
>> On 09/12/2022 08:43, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
>>> That?s a terrific account of a time which can claim to be BBC TV?s Golden Years.  It would have been impressive merely to document in that sort of detail the technical and operational aspects of doing such a drama, but you also included massive amounts of information regarding what goes on behind the scenes.  Everything from printing scripts through to catering, not forgetting the soft soled shoe allowance.
>>> 
>>> The Tech Ops archive is fortunate to be enriched by such a comprehensive account and my congratulations to Alec and those who helped to make it happen.  I would like to think that if anybody was going to write a script for a programme which includes scenes in a 1960s TV studio, this account would be essential reading to provide a wealth of detail which might otherwise have been overlooked.
>>> 
>>> One thing which Alec touched upon is that photography was frowned upon and staff rarely took photographs in studios.  However, many of us did take some pictures during the course of our work.  How about dusting off some of those shoe boxes, sifting through the pictures and posting them on the group?  Even quite mundane pictures often include details which prompt discussion, or include people remembered by others.  
>>> 
>>> Few of us are likely to be able to write an account of the breadth and quality which Alec has done, but most of us have pictures, maybe hundreds or even thousands of photographs. How about sharing some with the group and adding to the archive?
>>> 
>>> Alan
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> ?That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>> As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
>>>>> For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly". 
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf
>>>>> 
>>>>> It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
>>>>> As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
>>>>> I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
>>>>> It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...
>>>>> 
>>>>> (I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Keep focussed and attuned,
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Alec
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> =======
>>>>> 
>>>>> Alec Bray
>>>>> 
>>>>> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
>>>>> Mob: 07789 561 346
>>>>> Tel: 0118 981 7502
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> ? 
>>>> Graeme Wall
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Fri Dec  9 05:53:06 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 11:53:06 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <D3F11B23-A6FC-46DA-9D30-BFC691D93212@me.com>
References: <CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>
	<D3F11B23-A6FC-46DA-9D30-BFC691D93212@me.com>
Message-ID: <60BA3975D76045478E756FCC32F7FEA8@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

I think a ?bits and pieces? response is quite likely Alan. Centre top of frame group of five ? on the left Dave Denness, on the right Stu Lindley would be my first attempt.

Dave Newbitt.

From: Alan Taylor via Tech1 
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2022 10:33 AM
To: tech1 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966

This looks like an obvious candidate for a picture having all the heads numbered so that they can be identified and named for posterity.

It could be that more than one person might be doing so.  To avoid confusion or duplication of effort, I would suggest that anybody planning to do says announces their intention, otherwise we might end up with two differently numbered pictures.

Any takers?

Alan



  On 9 Dec 2022, at 10:15, David Brunt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:


  ? 
  Are you certain that photo's from the 100th, because that's Geoffrey Whitehead on the right with Leonard Lewis a couple to his left. They didn't arrive until the following year.

  Could it be the 150th episode in May 1965?

  David



  On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 09:35, Hugh Sheppard via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

    As a claimant to having cleared cables on the first Z-Cars and negotiated the thickets to Camera 3 on Crew 6 after working on 120 eps (before being demoted to a P.A. in TV Pres.) this epistle represents all my own yesterdays in Hi-Def Colour. Without any photographic proof of 'I was there' apart from the group photo after Ep. 100 (attached), thank you for re-living those days in such detail.

    Is there anyone else out there who was in the photo too?  [I'm against the black background - 2 above 'Barlow'].

     
    Hugh  


    On 09/12/2022 08:43, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:

That?s a terrific account of a time which can claim to be BBC TV?s Golden Years.  It would have been impressive merely to document in that sort of detail the technical and operational aspects of doing such a drama, but you also included massive amounts of information regarding what goes on behind the scenes.  Everything from printing scripts through to catering, not forgetting the soft soled shoe allowance.

The Tech Ops archive is fortunate to be enriched by such a comprehensive account and my congratulations to Alec and those who helped to make it happen.  I would like to think that if anybody was going to write a script for a programme which includes scenes in a 1960s TV studio, this account would be essential reading to provide a wealth of detail which might otherwise have been overlooked.

One thing which Alec touched upon is that photography was frowned upon and staff rarely took photographs in studios.  However, many of us did take some pictures during the course of our work.  How about dusting off some of those shoe boxes, sifting through the pictures and posting them on the group?  Even quite mundane pictures often include details which prompt discussion, or include people remembered by others.  

Few of us are likely to be able to write an account of the breadth and quality which Alec has done, but most of us have pictures, maybe hundreds or even thousands of photographs. How about sharing some with the group and adding to the archive?

Alan


On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote:

?That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!

On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1 mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote:

Hello Everyone,
As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly". 

http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf

It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...

(I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)

I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.

Keep focussed and attuned,
Best regards,
Alec
-- 
=======

Alec Bray

alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
Mob: 07789 561 346
Tel: 0118 981 7502
-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
? 
Graeme Wall



-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
-- 
    Tech1 mailing list
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    http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From geoffletch at gmail.com  Fri Dec  9 06:00:46 2022
From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 12:00:46 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <60BA3975D76045478E756FCC32F7FEA8@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>
	<D3F11B23-A6FC-46DA-9D30-BFC691D93212@me.com>
	<60BA3975D76045478E756FCC32F7FEA8@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <CAB99AB8Af6Fr31vw2skS4VRdK5xrAS9PsPyj-foi3_MDAmaR4Q@mail.gmail.com>

100th Z Cars TX was in March 1964.
Geoff F

On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 11:53, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
wrote:

> I think a ?bits and pieces? response is quite likely Alan. Centre top of
> frame group of five ? on the left Dave Denness, on the right Stu Lindley
> would be my first attempt.
>
> Dave Newbitt.
>
> *From:* Alan Taylor via Tech1
> *Sent:* Friday, December 9, 2022 10:33 AM
> *To:* tech1
> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
>
> This looks like an obvious candidate for a picture having all the heads
> numbered so that they can be identified and named for posterity.
>
> It could be that more than one person might be doing so.  To avoid
> confusion or duplication of effort, I would suggest that anybody planning
> to do says announces their intention, otherwise we might end up with two
> differently numbered pictures.
>
> Any takers?
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 9 Dec 2022, at 10:15, David Brunt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> ?
> Are you certain that photo's from the 100th, because that's Geoffrey
> Whitehead on the right with Leonard Lewis a couple to his left. They didn't
> arrive until the following year.
>
> Could it be the 150th episode in May 1965?
>
> David
>
>
> On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 09:35, Hugh Sheppard via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> As a claimant to having cleared cables on the first Z-Cars and negotiated
>> the thickets to Camera 3 on Crew 6 after working on 120 eps (before being
>> demoted to a P.A. in TV Pres.) this epistle represents all my own
>> yesterdays in Hi-Def Colour. Without any photographic proof of 'I was
>> there' apart from the group photo after Ep. 100 (attached), thank you for
>> re-living those days in such detail.
>>
>> Is there anyone else out there who was in the photo too?  [I'm against
>> the black background - 2 above 'Barlow'].
>> [image: Z Cars 100. HS edit..jpg]
>>
>> Hugh
>> On 09/12/2022 08:43, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
>>
>> That?s a terrific account of a time which can claim to be BBC TV?s Golden Years.  It would have been impressive merely to document in that sort of detail the technical and operational aspects of doing such a drama, but you also included massive amounts of information regarding what goes on behind the scenes.  Everything from printing scripts through to catering, not forgetting the soft soled shoe allowance.
>>
>> The Tech Ops archive is fortunate to be enriched by such a comprehensive account and my congratulations to Alec and those who helped to make it happen.  I would like to think that if anybody was going to write a script for a programme which includes scenes in a 1960s TV studio, this account would be essential reading to provide a wealth of detail which might otherwise have been overlooked.
>>
>> One thing which Alec touched upon is that photography was frowned upon and staff rarely took photographs in studios.  However, many of us did take some pictures during the course of our work.  How about dusting off some of those shoe boxes, sifting through the pictures and posting them on the group?  Even quite mundane pictures often include details which prompt discussion, or include people remembered by others.
>>
>> Few of us are likely to be able to write an account of the breadth and quality which Alec has done, but most of us have pictures, maybe hundreds or even thousands of photographs. How about sharing some with the group and adding to the archive?
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> ?That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!
>>
>>
>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1 mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> Hello Everyone,
>> As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
>> For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly".
>> http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf
>>
>> It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
>> As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
>> I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
>> It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...
>>
>> (I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)
>>
>> I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.
>>
>> Keep focussed and attuned,
>> Best regards,
>> Alec
>> --
>> =======
>>
>> Alec Bray
>> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
>> Mob: 07789 561 346
>> Tel: 0118 981 7502
>> --
>> Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
>> ?
>> Graeme Wall
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
>> --
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
> ------------------------------
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Fri Dec  9 06:01:46 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 12:01:46 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <D3F11B23-A6FC-46DA-9D30-BFC691D93212@me.com>
References: <CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>
	<D3F11B23-A6FC-46DA-9D30-BFC691D93212@me.com>
Message-ID: <F5E78A403C4C4984BBD221DFD7CB44F4@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

And maybe Mike Conder in the white shirt cam right of Dave Denness?

Dave Newbitt.

From: Alan Taylor via Tech1 
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2022 10:33 AM
To: tech1 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966

This looks like an obvious candidate for a picture having all the heads numbered so that they can be identified and named for posterity.

It could be that more than one person might be doing so.  To avoid confusion or duplication of effort, I would suggest that anybody planning to do says announces their intention, otherwise we might end up with two differently numbered pictures.

Any takers?

Alan



  On 9 Dec 2022, at 10:15, David Brunt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:


  ? 
  Are you certain that photo's from the 100th, because that's Geoffrey Whitehead on the right with Leonard Lewis a couple to his left. They didn't arrive until the following year.

  Could it be the 150th episode in May 1965?

  David



  On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 09:35, Hugh Sheppard via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

    As a claimant to having cleared cables on the first Z-Cars and negotiated the thickets to Camera 3 on Crew 6 after working on 120 eps (before being demoted to a P.A. in TV Pres.) this epistle represents all my own yesterdays in Hi-Def Colour. Without any photographic proof of 'I was there' apart from the group photo after Ep. 100 (attached), thank you for re-living those days in such detail.

    Is there anyone else out there who was in the photo too?  [I'm against the black background - 2 above 'Barlow'].

     
    Hugh  


    On 09/12/2022 08:43, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:

That?s a terrific account of a time which can claim to be BBC TV?s Golden Years.  It would have been impressive merely to document in that sort of detail the technical and operational aspects of doing such a drama, but you also included massive amounts of information regarding what goes on behind the scenes.  Everything from printing scripts through to catering, not forgetting the soft soled shoe allowance.

The Tech Ops archive is fortunate to be enriched by such a comprehensive account and my congratulations to Alec and those who helped to make it happen.  I would like to think that if anybody was going to write a script for a programme which includes scenes in a 1960s TV studio, this account would be essential reading to provide a wealth of detail which might otherwise have been overlooked.

One thing which Alec touched upon is that photography was frowned upon and staff rarely took photographs in studios.  However, many of us did take some pictures during the course of our work.  How about dusting off some of those shoe boxes, sifting through the pictures and posting them on the group?  Even quite mundane pictures often include details which prompt discussion, or include people remembered by others.  

Few of us are likely to be able to write an account of the breadth and quality which Alec has done, but most of us have pictures, maybe hundreds or even thousands of photographs. How about sharing some with the group and adding to the archive?

Alan


On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote:

?That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!

On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1 mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote:

Hello Everyone,
As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly". 

http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf

It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...

(I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)

I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.

Keep focussed and attuned,
Best regards,
Alec
-- 
=======

Alec Bray

alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
Mob: 07789 561 346
Tel: 0118 981 7502
-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
? 
Graeme Wall



-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
-- 
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From dave.mdv at btinternet.com  Fri Dec  9 07:06:14 2022
From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 13:06:14 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <60BA3975D76045478E756FCC32F7FEA8@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>
	<D3F11B23-A6FC-46DA-9D30-BFC691D93212@me.com>
	<60BA3975D76045478E756FCC32F7FEA8@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <b5aa388d-24ed-bc65-3d72-8c987abcd929@btinternet.com>

In May. 1965, the sound crew for Crew 6 was Bert Power, Mike Condor and 
Dave Denness, the Senior Cameraman was D.Thompson. Cheers, Dave


From hughsheppard at btinternet.com  Fri Dec  9 10:31:42 2022
From: hughsheppard at btinternet.com (Hugh Sheppard)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 16:31:42 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8A59A3C9-F2B8-48E3-B5F2-8F613C689CF3@icloud.com>
	<314CE0DE-E66B-4E3D-BDA6-09B0E8EA6B8A@me.com>
	<dee9513c-95c3-22bb-e3fc-13414702d086@btinternet.com>
	<CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46c72e6c-c290-fd58-0531-d083099d4d85@btinternet.com>

You're so right David! I'm not sure of it being the 150th - although I 
was back from a Pres. attachment for a while around then, but my glossy 
'BBC Copyright' hard copy of the 100th is certainly different. All these 
years I'd thought the digital ed'n I sent on and my glossy ed'n were one 
and the same. I'll re-photograph the latter and put that up, unless you 
or anyone else beats me to it.

Hugh

On 09/12/2022 10:14, David Brunt wrote:
> Are you certain that photo's from the 100th, because that's Geoffrey 
> Whitehead on the right with Leonard Lewis a couple to his left. They 
> didn't arrive until the following year.
>
> Could it be the 150th episode in May 1965?
>
> David
>
>
> On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 09:35, Hugh Sheppard via Tech1 
> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
>     As a claimant to having cleared cables on the first Z-Cars and
>     negotiated the thickets to Camera 3 on Crew 6 after working on 120
>     eps (before being demoted to a P.A. in TV Pres.) this epistle
>     represents all my own yesterdays in Hi-Def Colour. Without any
>     photographic proof of 'I was there' apart from the group photo
>     after Ep. 100 (attached), thank you for re-living those days in
>     such detail.
>
>     Is there anyone else out there who was in the photo too?? [I'm
>     against the black background - 2 above 'Barlow'].
>
>     Hugh
>
>     On 09/12/2022 08:43, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
>>     That?s a terrific account of a time which can claim to be BBC TV?s Golden Years.  It would have been impressive merely to document in that sort of detail the technical and operational aspects of doing such a drama, but you also included massive amounts of information regarding what goes on behind the scenes.  Everything from printing scripts through to catering, not forgetting the soft soled shoe allowance.
>>
>>     The Tech Ops archive is fortunate to be enriched by such a comprehensive account and my congratulations to Alec and those who helped to make it happen.  I would like to think that if anybody was going to write a script for a programme which includes scenes in a 1960s TV studio, this account would be essential reading to provide a wealth of detail which might otherwise have been overlooked.
>>
>>     One thing which Alec touched upon is that photography was frowned upon and staff rarely took photographs in studios.  However, many of us did take some pictures during the course of our work.  How about dusting off some of those shoe boxes, sifting through the pictures and posting them on the group?  Even quite mundane pictures often include details which prompt discussion, or include people remembered by others.
>>
>>     Few of us are likely to be able to write an account of the breadth and quality which Alec has done, but most of us have pictures, maybe hundreds or even thousands of photographs. How about sharing some with the group and adding to the archive?
>>
>>     Alan
>>
>>
>>>     On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  <mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>>
>>>     ?That is certainy a tour-de-force, well done!
>>>
>>>>     On 6 Dec 2022, at 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  <mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Hello Everyone,
>>>>     As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this endeavour.
>>>>     For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as "Softly, Softly".
>>>>
>>>>     http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf
>>>>
>>>>     It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
>>>>     As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... hmmmm...  some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the one picture.  Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
>>>>     I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the first drafts:  Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.  But above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious pratfalls! Thank you!   Any mistakes in the document are, of course, mine.   If you find any errors, please let me know ...
>>>>     It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...
>>>>
>>>>     (I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had       counted those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)
>>>>
>>>>     I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan will be very pleased to receive and use them.
>>>>
>>>>     Keep focussed and attuned,
>>>>     Best regards,
>>>>     Alec
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     =======
>>>>
>>>>     Alec Bray
>>>>
>>>>     alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
>>>>     Mob: 07789 561 346
>>>>     Tel: 0118 981 7502
>>>>     -- 
>>>>     Tech1 mailing list
>>>>     Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>>     http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>>     ?
>>>     Graeme Wall
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>     Tech1 mailing list
>>>     Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>     http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>     -- 
>     Tech1 mailing list
>     Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>     http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  9 10:52:56 2022
From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 16:52:56 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] The Story Continues: Going Live with "Softly,
 Softly" in 1966
Message-ID: <2b9101a9-9abe-e5c5-ace7-9bf7d312e835@gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

David Brunt has very kindly produced a complete breakdown of the Live 
and recorded episodes of the first two series of "Softly, Softly", and 
so the document is now updated with that information.? Interestingly, 
Crew 7 must have not worked on the complete series, but we certainly 
worked on a (large) number of the live ones:? At the time, I thought I'd 
join some local clubs, to try to meet people other than those at the 
BBC.? One club met on Sundays - and we immediately got a run of Sundays 
with "Not Only But Also" . Another club met on a Wednesday evening - and 
we got the run of "Softly Softly"s !

David also found a copy of a TC3 studio plan (for "Z-Cars"), so I have 
been able to fill in some of the blanks on my vector graphics drawn 
version - at least it dos not look quite so bare.? It is not 100% 
correct but I hope that it will prove good enough..? Thank you, David, 
for your contributions!

To recap: the story of a fictional episode of "Softly Softly" is here:

http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly.pdf


(There is a link to the title film plus leader, which works in the PDF 
on the desktop but seems reluctant to work vis the web: sorry about that 
...)

Enjoy!


-- 
=======

Alec Bray

alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
Mob:  07789 561 346
Tel:  0118 981 7502
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From davidvbrunt at gmail.com  Fri Dec  9 10:58:37 2022
From: davidvbrunt at gmail.com (David Brunt)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 16:58:37 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <46c72e6c-c290-fd58-0531-d083099d4d85@btinternet.com>
References: <8A59A3C9-F2B8-48E3-B5F2-8F613C689CF3@icloud.com>
	<314CE0DE-E66B-4E3D-BDA6-09B0E8EA6B8A@me.com>
	<dee9513c-95c3-22bb-e3fc-13414702d086@btinternet.com>
	<CAFKgnyx8z+wOJQ+_uvdJ0JdOpR05F5Qsxfog1gyFb-+=DbT0Qw@mail.gmail.com>
	<46c72e6c-c290-fd58-0531-d083099d4d85@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAFKgnywWAan4=TuKcC0NdYrAgpjjGu9ALji_Xu71KjfQJaNe4A@mail.gmail.com>

I've only got a very worn and dog-earred copy of the 100th photo.  I could
do with a much better version for the Season 3 book.

It may be the end of season 4 photo from July 1965. It would have to be
that year because of Geoffrey Whitehead.


On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 16:31, Hugh Sheppard <hughsheppard at btinternet.com>
wrote:

> You're so right David! I'm not sure of it being the 150th - although I was
> back from a Pres. attachment for a while around then, but my glossy 'BBC
> Copyright' hard copy of the 100th is certainly different. All these years
> I'd thought the digital ed'n I sent on and my glossy ed'n were one and the
> same. I'll re-photograph the latter and put that up, unless you or anyone
> else beats me to it.
>
> Hugh
>
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From mike.jdg.minchin at gmail.com  Fri Dec  9 14:56:38 2022
From: mike.jdg.minchin at gmail.com (Mike)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 20:56:38 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <8f02e721-10d6-e4bd-7354-4f688a430f40@gmail.com>
References: <8f02e721-10d6-e4bd-7354-4f688a430f40@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34d6c238-d493-26cc-dee1-b38336545079@gmail.com>

A Pedant Writes :

Magnificent work on Going Live with "Softly Softly", but I was brought 
up sharp with a picture, attributed to Roger Bunce. which purported to 
be "Crew dragging a cable out during the Rig".? For the point of your 
story, great, but it is actually of Peter Grainger and myself putting a 
cable AWAY after an episode of "Cousin Bette", and was lifted from a 
film called "Behind the Scenes: Television Centre", directed by Tim 
Byford in 1971. Elsewhere in your piece you have a shot of the floor 
being washed after that episode : same source.? I also appear, steering 
a Mole into stores : you can't see who is providing the motive power, 
but I am seen telling them that there is an obstruction!? Also in that 
film you get a glimpse of Brian Parker (actually operating a camera!)? 
and Peter Grainger maneuvering his Ped around furniture after rehearsing 
that scene.

You repeatedly make the point that we weren't allowed to take still 
cameras into the Studios - but I took a lot of pictures while working on 
The Forsyth Saga in 1966-7.? My aim was to cover the people behind the 
cameras, but I also took some actors.? The lady in charge of publicity 
was a bit miffed and I promised not to publish them.? Despite this one 
actor was so impressed he used my portrait of him for years in 
Spotlight.? I'm not sure where my prints are now ... probably at the 
back of a dusty cupboard!

Best Wishes, Mike Minchin


On 06/12/2022 15:13, Alec Bray via Tech1 wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> As many of you will know by now, Alan Taylor is taking over as 
> collator and curator of your Tech Ops group emails for potential use 
> on the Tech Ops website, and I am sure we all wish him well in this 
> endeavour.
>
> For a sort of "farewell", I have put together a write-up of what I 
> remember it being like to go on-air live with a weekly series such as 
> "Softly, Softly".
>
>
> http://www.tech-ops.co.uk/bray/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly/Going_Live_with_Softly_Softly_version_1_Dec_2022.pdf
>
>
> It centres around a fictional episode of "Softly"and has a fictional 
> "crew 7" - there are so very few photographs around of our work in 
> those days (as we were forbidden to take cameras into the studios) 
> that few in the pictures can be identified - almost certainly they 
> were not on that crew at that time - (Oh, OK, some of them are clear...)!
>
> As a consequence, there are a number of "Artist's Impressions"... 
> hmmmm...? some of those used up to 9 existing images to fashion the 
> one picture.? Well, TV is a visual medium, it needs pictures!!!
>
> I should like to thank those intrepid volunteers who reviewed the 
> first drafts:? Barry Bonner, John Howell and Bernie Newnham.? But 
> above all I would like to thank Dudley Darby, who not only did a 
> really thorough review, but who also helped me avoid some obvious 
> pratfalls! Thank you!?? Any mistakes in the document are, of course, 
> mine.?? If you find any errors, please let me know ...
>
> It was only when I started on this work that I realised that it was 
> closer to the start of the BBC than it is to today - 44 years since 
> the BBC began, 56 years from 1966 to today ...
>
>
> (I thought for a ;long time that I worked on three series of live 
> "Softly, Softly"s - researching for this, I realised that the second 
> series was split before and after Christmas 1966, and I had counted 
> those "halves" as separate series... So, I worked on just the first 
> _two_ series of "Softly, Softly, " which were both live.)
>
>
> I am sure that you (all) could do some similar "in-depth" reporting 
> about some of the shows that you have worked on: I am sure that Alan 
> will be very pleased to receive and use them.
>
>
> Keep focussed and attuned,
>
> Best regards,
>
> Alec
>
> -- 
> =======
>
> Alec Bray
>
> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
> Mob:  07789 561 346
> Tel:  0118 981 7502
>


From peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk  Fri Dec  9 14:58:12 2022
From: peter.fox at zero51.force9.co.uk (Peter Fox)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 20:58:12 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] A story: Going Live with "Softly, Softly 1966
In-Reply-To: <46c72e6c-c290-fd58-0531-d083099d4d85@btinternet.com>
References: <46c72e6c-c290-fd58-0531-d083099d4d85@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <380DEDB3-F512-4293-BFB4-2360DB101B4C@zero51.force9.co.uk>

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From dave.mdv at btinternet.com  Sat Dec 10 04:54:14 2022
From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 10:54:14 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy bills
Message-ID: <8d4d050e-cf92-c035-3a4c-6b719530ddac@btinternet.com>

I have just ben informed by EDF that my monthly fuel bill for gas and 
electricity will change from ?333/month to ?469/month next year! Now, 
that's what I call inflation! No cheers, Dave


From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 10 05:16:17 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 11:16:17 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy bills
In-Reply-To: <8d4d050e-cf92-c035-3a4c-6b719530ddac@btinternet.com>
References: <8d4d050e-cf92-c035-3a4c-6b719530ddac@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <45f44293-fe98-49fc-e289-9de30fc71a50@gmail.com>

I've been doing some checks here with the new smart meters. They work OK 
- but the IHD not, even after being replaced. And more phone calls than 
I can count. First one only read gas - the new one just displays 
nonsense.? I have idly wondered which pals of the government got the 
contract to supply smart meters, given how useless they are.

However, Look for the phone does work well.

Since it's cold, decided to run the heating as before the price 
increases to see what it costs. Heating on from 0730 - 2400, and the 
target temperature for the living room 20C.

Bill for yesterday almost exactly ?20. And used near enough the same kwh 
that day as I use in electricity in a month.

Before the cold snap I'd set it to 18C - and only heated the kitchen, 
living room and bathroom. That cost less than ?10 a day.

This is a three story Victorian semi with solid 9" brick walls. Double 
glazed with reasonable roof insulation. Tricky to improve the roof 
insulation due to the (newish) attic room, which is my bedroom. And 
really not sure how to insulate the walls without severe disruption.

On 10/12/2022 10:54, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote:
> I have just ben informed by EDF that my monthly fuel bill for gas and 
> electricity will change from ?333/month to ?469/month next year! Now, 
> that's what I call inflation! No cheers, Dave
>


From mikej at bmanor.co.uk  Sat Dec 10 05:28:43 2022
From: mikej at bmanor.co.uk (Mike Jordan)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 11:28:43 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy bills
In-Reply-To: <45f44293-fe98-49fc-e289-9de30fc71a50@gmail.com>
References: <8d4d050e-cf92-c035-3a4c-6b719530ddac@btinternet.com>
	<45f44293-fe98-49fc-e289-9de30fc71a50@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ED49889D9E344D96A40991B2DB73B7D0@Gigabyte>

Be careful Dave with stand alone heaters!
The BBC London website tells us that plug-in ones "should be at least one 
meter away from anything inflammable"
Do they mean the thing that measures your power consumption?

>From obviously a very well educated reporter (Beth Timmins)

Mike




From pat.heigham at amps.net  Sat Dec 10 08:48:11 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 14:48:11 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy bills
In-Reply-To: <45f44293-fe98-49fc-e289-9de30fc71a50@gmail.com>
References: <8d4d050e-cf92-c035-3a4c-6b719530ddac@btinternet.com>
	<45f44293-fe98-49fc-e289-9de30fc71a50@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6dc23001-0374-1fa9-88f3-6db5cb46fccd@amps.net>

I have a Smart meter for electricity,

 ?I believe it sends the info via Vodafone, because the engineer who 
installed it was checking the telephone signal strength.

Not for gas, I'm happy to read the meters for both and send in the reading.

As I'm elderly, now 80, heaven forbid, I received the Gov's ?500 towards 
energy bills, so I don't care as long as I am warm.

I run the heating at full blast 24 hrs. (gas fired, water radiators). It 
is more effective to keep the temp up, rather than
running it down and then having to boost from lower temp. (I expect 
Woolf to come in and say I'm wrong!)

I also get an extra ?10 Christmas present added to the State Pension 
from the Gov, but they haven't taken any notice of the inflation rate!
Me greedy? Yep!

Pat


On 10/12/2022 11:16, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
> I've been doing some checks here with the new smart meters. They work 
> OK - but the IHD not, even after being replaced. And more phone calls 
> than I can count. First one only read gas - the new one just displays 
> nonsense.? I have idly wondered which pals of the government got the 
> contract to supply smart meters, given how useless they are.
>
> However, Look for the phone does work well.
>
> Since it's cold, decided to run the heating as before the price 
> increases to see what it costs. Heating on from 0730 - 2400, and the 
> target temperature for the living room 20C.
>
> Bill for yesterday almost exactly ?20. And used near enough the same 
> kwh that day as I use in electricity in a month.
>
> Before the cold snap I'd set it to 18C - and only heated the kitchen, 
> living room and bathroom. That cost less than ?10 a day.
>
> This is a three story Victorian semi with solid 9" brick walls. Double 
> glazed with reasonable roof insulation. Tricky to improve the roof 
> insulation due to the (newish) attic room, which is my bedroom. And 
> really not sure how to insulate the walls without severe disruption.
>
> On 10/12/2022 10:54, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote:
>> I have just ben informed by EDF that my monthly fuel bill for gas and 
>> electricity will change from ?333/month to ?469/month next year! Now, 
>> that's what I call inflation! No cheers, Dave
>>
>
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 10 09:10:27 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 15:10:27 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy bills
In-Reply-To: <6dc23001-0374-1fa9-88f3-6db5cb46fccd@amps.net>
References: <8d4d050e-cf92-c035-3a4c-6b719530ddac@btinternet.com>
	<45f44293-fe98-49fc-e289-9de30fc71a50@gmail.com>
	<6dc23001-0374-1fa9-88f3-6db5cb46fccd@amps.net>
Message-ID: <0c570303-2ea5-72b0-6956-5cbd45755a1d@gmail.com>

IIRC, early meters used the mobile network, but later ones a dedicated 
one. Perhaps a dedicated frequency which is part of the moble network or 
whatever?

If it is working, why would you send in readings? It should do this a 
few times a day automatically. Both mine do.

Doesn't need an expert to tell you that running the heating 24 hours 
costs more. If it didn't, you've just invented perpetual motion. But 
easy to check by reading your meter daily under both conditions. But 
Look on my phone gives the usage by the hour, day or month etc. And the 
cost. Via the smart meter. So you don't even need a pencil or calculator.

Good to hear you are managing, Pat. But do spare a thought for those 
where increased costs - mortgage or rent, food, etc have risen way more 
than their income. With massive heating bills being the last straw. And 
support those on strike to get a wage they can live on - while being 
sneered at by the multi-millionaires who run the country.

On 10/12/2022 14:48, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>
> I have a Smart meter for electricity,
>
> ?I believe it sends the info via Vodafone, because the engineer who 
> installed it was checking the telephone signal strength.
>
> Not for gas, I'm happy to read the meters for both and send in the 
> reading.
>
> As I'm elderly, now 80, heaven forbid, I received the Gov's ?500 
> towards energy bills, so I don't care as long as I am warm.
>
> I run the heating at full blast 24 hrs. (gas fired, water radiators). 
> It is more effective to keep the temp up, rather than
> running it down and then having to boost from lower temp. (I expect 
> Woolf to come in and say I'm wrong!)
>
> I also get an extra ?10 Christmas present added to the State Pension 
> from the Gov, but they haven't taken any notice of the inflation rate!
> Me greedy? Yep!
>
> Pat
>
>
> On 10/12/2022 11:16, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
>> I've been doing some checks here with the new smart meters. They work 
>> OK - but the IHD not, even after being replaced. And more phone calls 
>> than I can count. First one only read gas - the new one just displays 
>> nonsense.? I have idly wondered which pals of the government got the 
>> contract to supply smart meters, given how useless they are.
>>
>> However, Look for the phone does work well.
>>
>> Since it's cold, decided to run the heating as before the price 
>> increases to see what it costs. Heating on from 0730 - 2400, and the 
>> target temperature for the living room 20C.
>>
>> Bill for yesterday almost exactly ?20. And used near enough the same 
>> kwh that day as I use in electricity in a month.
>>
>> Before the cold snap I'd set it to 18C - and only heated the kitchen, 
>> living room and bathroom. That cost less than ?10 a day.
>>
>> This is a three story Victorian semi with solid 9" brick walls. 
>> Double glazed with reasonable roof insulation. Tricky to improve the 
>> roof insulation due to the (newish) attic room, which is my bedroom. 
>> And really not sure how to insulate the walls without severe disruption.
>>
>> On 10/12/2022 10:54, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote:
>>> I have just ben informed by EDF that my monthly fuel bill for gas 
>>> and electricity will change from ?333/month to ?469/month next year! 
>>> Now, that's what I call inflation! No cheers, Dave
>>>
>>
>
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From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Sat Dec 10 11:50:45 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 17:50:45 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy bills
In-Reply-To: <0c570303-2ea5-72b0-6956-5cbd45755a1d@gmail.com>
References: <0c570303-2ea5-72b0-6956-5cbd45755a1d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94E37FEC-86E9-439A-9716-DE9CB50B4B3E@sky.com>

I too am retired and me and my boss live in an old stone cottage which is difficult to keep warm despite doing as much as possible insulation wise, apart from covering the outside with a foot of polystyrene.
Due to our rural location we have no gas supply despite a major gas pipe from the Irish Sea gas field run about a mile away past our house. We had to make a decision 30 years ago whether to go for oil or electric storage heaters when we fitted central heating into the house. We chose storage heaters but I cannot remember why.
We had a system called Electratech which turned them on and off originally which was a very early digital control system and could be used to switch other circuits.
However ,with storage heaters you have to decide the day before which ones to turn on and at what level, and we got very adept at making those decisions. The house is always warm as the heaters release some heat at night during the storing process. The heat can start tailing off the nearer it gets to midnight. Needless to say the Electratech eventually failed and it was impossible to repair so we changed a few years ago to using a central electronic timer which triggers contactors( basically relays ) to turn on each circuit. This makes a satisfying clunk when it switches the circuits. The whole house is on economy 7 so it is best to run the washing machine between the hours of 0030 to 0730. 
The system has worked very well over those years with only a couple of radiators being replaced and a few faulty electric control system devices being changed. No annual service costs or complex electronic control systems to change. There are three heating elements in each large heater which  is a 3.6 kw load. We have never replaced any elements on the heaters. 
As we have been home all the time with kids and my wife not working  , apart from summer and holidays , the heaters are always on 24/ 7 to various degrees. There is no central thermostat so each room?s temperature is controlled by individual controls, though some rooms share heat as there are no doors between. 
Recently we upgraded the open fireplace in one room to a multi fuel stove , mostly using wood collected from fallen trees on our land , but supplemented at times like now by smokeless fuel to keep the stove running on tickover during the night. We can also use that stove during milder times to more or less heat the whole of the downstairs once it gets up to temperature.
Of course it costs a lot of money to run and before now a ?300 a month standing charge covered a year. A few years ago we had 20 solar panels and a home 8.4 kWhour battery fitted. For about six months this year our electric bills were virtually zero but once the sun disappears and temperatures drop the bills rise significantly. Our most recent bill was around ?400 for the month of November and December? s will probably be higher due to the current really cold spell. Thanks to the winter fuel allowance and government help we will not have to actually pay that much but it is expensive. 
Luckily we can afford it but many cannot so I have sympathy with them. Many are on strike at the moment but the country is in a bad state financially at the moment mainly due to the Covid lockdowns and government payouts for people to stay at home plus of course the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the consequential large rises in fuel costs. 
Some top executives/ bankers and the like are paid huge amounts sometimes for poor performance but I personally don?t think there is enough money available to take from them to give everyone massive pay rises. 
The past governments of many colours have had a very short term view of how we get our energy. Schemes such as tidal barrages which provide a reliable and predictable source of energy unaffected by the lack of wind have been put on the back burner. Gas storage systems were scrapped and not enough investment into house insulation provided to ease the current crisis. 
Sadly there is no simple solution to all this and the country is in a mess ,but some parties suggesting they would make it easier to go on strike will not solve it.
Once everyone is on strike ,what happens then? Maybe communism is the answer but show me a country where that has worked for the masses and not just a select few.
Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.
Anyway back to the mince pies and watching England lose to France?.bugger!

Sent from my iPad

> On 10 Dec 2022, at 16:11, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> IIRC, early meters used the mobile network, but later ones a dedicated one. Perhaps a dedicated frequency which is part of the moble network or whatever?
> 
> If it is working, why would you send in readings? It should do this a few times a day automatically. Both mine do.
> 
> Doesn't need an expert to tell you that running the heating 24 hours costs more. If it didn't, you've just invented perpetual motion. But easy to check by reading your meter daily under both conditions. But Look on my phone gives the usage by the hour, day or month etc. And the cost. Via the smart meter. So you don't even need a pencil or calculator.
> 
> Good to hear you are managing, Pat. But do spare a thought for those where increased costs - mortgage or rent, food, etc have risen way more than their income. With massive heating bills being the last straw. And support those on strike to get a wage they can live on - while being sneered at by the multi-millionaires who run the country.
> 
> On 10/12/2022 14:48, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>> I have a Smart meter for electricity,
>> 
>>  I believe it sends the info via Vodafone, because the engineer who installed it was checking the telephone signal strength.
>> 
>> Not for gas, I'm happy to read the meters for both and send in the reading.
>> 
>> As I'm elderly, now 80, heaven forbid, I received the Gov's ?500 towards energy bills, so I don't care as long as I am warm.
>> 
>> I run the heating at full blast 24 hrs. (gas fired, water radiators). It is more effective to keep the temp up, rather than
>> running it down and then having to boost from lower temp. (I expect Woolf to come in and say I'm wrong!)
>> 
>> I also get an extra ?10 Christmas present added to the State Pension from the Gov, but they haven't taken any notice of the inflation rate!
>> Me greedy? Yep!
>> 
>> Pat
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/12/2022 11:16, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
>>> I've been doing some checks here with the new smart meters. They work OK - but the IHD not, even after being replaced. And more phone calls than I can count. First one only read gas - the new one just displays nonsense.  I have idly wondered which pals of the government got the contract to supply smart meters, given how useless they are. 
>>> 
>>> However, Look for the phone does work well. 
>>> 
>>> Since it's cold, decided to run the heating as before the price increases to see what it costs. Heating on from 0730 - 2400, and the target temperature for the living room 20C. 
>>> 
>>> Bill for yesterday almost exactly ?20. And used near enough the same kwh that day as I use in electricity in a month. 
>>> 
>>> Before the cold snap I'd set it to 18C - and only heated the kitchen, living room and bathroom. That cost less than ?10 a day. 
>>> 
>>> This is a three story Victorian semi with solid 9" brick walls. Double glazed with reasonable roof insulation. Tricky to improve the roof insulation due to the (newish) attic room, which is my bedroom. And really not sure how to insulate the walls without severe disruption. 
>>> 
>>> On 10/12/2022 10:54, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote: 
>>>> I have just ben informed by EDF that my monthly fuel bill for gas and electricity will change from ?333/month to ?469/month next year! Now, that's what I call inflation! No cheers, Dave 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From alanaudio at me.com  Sat Dec 10 13:40:29 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 19:40:29 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy bills
In-Reply-To: <94E37FEC-86E9-439A-9716-DE9CB50B4B3E@sky.com>
References: <94E37FEC-86E9-439A-9716-DE9CB50B4B3E@sky.com>
Message-ID: <F19EFE30-2F46-445E-A2F9-99C6774E361D@me.com>

The only time I?ve lived in a fairly modern house, it had a ducted hot air storage heating system.  Essentially a giant brick, the size of a wardrobe, heated up overnight and when you want heat, a fan draws air over it and into the rooms.  

The fundamental problem was that if you hadn?t pumped enough heat into it overnight, it stopped delivering heat by mid evening, which was when you most needed it.  It was essential to anticipate what the weather was likely to be and set the heat input control accordingly.  Turn it up too much and it cost a fortune. It also had a high powered relay which operated or released with a mighty clunk during the night and that noise was ducted into the bedrooms.

I was glad to move away from that house more than thirty years ago.

My village doesn?t have mains gas, so our choices are electricity, oil or bottled gas.  Those who opted for bottled gas have mostly abandoned it unless they insist on gas for cooking.  The big gas bottles are now tremendously expensive. Two or three have opted for heat pumps - with mixed results.  Everybody else either uses storage radiators or oil.  We use oil and although it?s gone up a lot in price, it?s not too bad compared to the alternatives.

I?m surprised at the monthly electricity charges some are reporting.  We?re currently on just under ?100 per month for electricity. No immersion heater or other heaters.  Cooking is on an induction hob with an electric oven.  There are a fair number of gadgets which are always on, but they were chosen to be frugal with power consumption. Big appliances were chosen to have good efficiency ratings. 1000 litres of oil ( ?950 - unfortunately bought at the peak price ) looks like it might last for more than a year, providing central heating and hot water. A cubic metre of logs (?110 ), supplemented with logs from the garden keeps the wood burner fed throughout the winter, which makes the living room toasty in the evenings. Roof space has well over 300mm of insulation and the stone walls are 600mm thick, with cavities too, so insulation is pretty decent.  The double glazing is dreadful, almost useless, but we?re in a conservation area and it?s a right hassle trying to get planning permission to replace them with better performing units which look similar. Total energy costs for electricity, oil and logs currently averages out to just under ?200 per month.

As far as strikes are concerned, Janet simply couldn?t live on the wage she earns in the hospital if she had to fend for herself. The pay has been hugely  eroded over the last ten years or so and there are massive pressures due to staff shortages.  Her ward is a critical care ward, designed for six critical care patients, but management have now squeezed in four more beds and a ?departure lounge? for up to ten patients who sit around in chairs until they can be taken home or elsewhere. There is not usually any increase in staffing levels to compensate, management imagine that the departure patients can look after themselves, but of course in the real world they need feeding, watering and assistance for toilet visits. Some of them try to act in a very entitled manner too and have to be told in no uncertain terms that the critical care patients need a lot of attention to stay alive, so don?t distract the nursing staff. 

Most of the patients in the four additional beds are general patients where they can?t be found a bed elsewhere.  There are serious infection control concerns having those patients coming from elsewhere and being put in close proximity to seriously unwell patients. There are still Covid patients most of the time, which presents additional infection control challenges in an overcrowded ward. 

Even the nominal staffing levels are not maintained, they are routinely one or two people short ( out of 5 or 6 ). In order to fill shifts, they bring in Bank staff ( NHS staff volunteering for additional shifts ) or agency nurses and have to pay them rates far in excess of what would be paid to full time staff if there were any available.  The whole system is falling apart and staff are leaving in droves. Tonight there are 72 vacant shifts across the hospitals in this region.

Alan





> On 10 Dec 2022, at 17:51, B Wilkinson via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?I too am retired and me and my boss live in an old stone cottage which is difficult to keep warm despite doing as much as possible insulation wise, apart from covering the outside with a foot of polystyrene.
> Due to our rural location we have no gas supply despite a major gas pipe from the Irish Sea gas field run about a mile away past our house. We had to make a decision 30 years ago whether to go for oil or electric storage heaters when we fitted central heating into the house. We chose storage heaters but I cannot remember why.
> We had a system called Electratech which turned them on and off originally which was a very early digital control system and could be used to switch other circuits.
> However ,with storage heaters you have to decide the day before which ones to turn on and at what level, and we got very adept at making those decisions. The house is always warm as the heaters release some heat at night during the storing process. The heat can start tailing off the nearer it gets to midnight. Needless to say the Electratech eventually failed and it was impossible to repair so we changed a few years ago to using a central electronic timer which triggers contactors( basically relays ) to turn on each circuit. This makes a satisfying clunk when it switches the circuits. The whole house is on economy 7 so it is best to run the washing machine between the hours of 0030 to 0730. 
> The system has worked very well over those years with only a couple of radiators being replaced and a few faulty electric control system devices being changed. No annual service costs or complex electronic control systems to change. There are three heating elements in each large heater which  is a 3.6 kw load. We have never replaced any elements on the heaters. 
> As we have been home all the time with kids and my wife not working  , apart from summer and holidays , the heaters are always on 24/ 7 to various degrees. There is no central thermostat so each room?s temperature is controlled by individual controls, though some rooms share heat as there are no doors between. 
> Recently we upgraded the open fireplace in one room to a multi fuel stove , mostly using wood collected from fallen trees on our land , but supplemented at times like now by smokeless fuel to keep the stove running on tickover during the night. We can also use that stove during milder times to more or less heat the whole of the downstairs once it gets up to temperature.
> Of course it costs a lot of money to run and before now a ?300 a month standing charge covered a year. A few years ago we had 20 solar panels and a home 8.4 kWhour battery fitted. For about six months this year our electric bills were virtually zero but once the sun disappears and temperatures drop the bills rise significantly. Our most recent bill was around ?400 for the month of November and December? s will probably be higher due to the current really cold spell. Thanks to the winter fuel allowance and government help we will not have to actually pay that much but it is expensive. 
> Luckily we can afford it but many cannot so I have sympathy with them. Many are on strike at the moment but the country is in a bad state financially at the moment mainly due to the Covid lockdowns and government payouts for people to stay at home plus of course the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the consequential large rises in fuel costs. 
> Some top executives/ bankers and the like are paid huge amounts sometimes for poor performance but I personally don?t think there is enough money available to take from them to give everyone massive pay rises. 
> The past governments of many colours have had a very short term view of how we get our energy. Schemes such as tidal barrages which provide a reliable and predictable source of energy unaffected by the lack of wind have been put on the back burner. Gas storage systems were scrapped and not enough investment into house insulation provided to ease the current crisis. 
> Sadly there is no simple solution to all this and the country is in a mess ,but some parties suggesting they would make it easier to go on strike will not solve it.
> Once everyone is on strike ,what happens then? Maybe communism is the answer but show me a country where that has worked for the masses and not just a select few.
> Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.
> Anyway back to the mince pies and watching England lose to France?.bugger!
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>>> On 10 Dec 2022, at 16:11, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> IIRC, early meters used the mobile network, but later ones a dedicated one. Perhaps a dedicated frequency which is part of the moble network or whatever?
>> 
>> If it is working, why would you send in readings? It should do this a few times a day automatically. Both mine do.
>> 
>> Doesn't need an expert to tell you that running the heating 24 hours costs more. If it didn't, you've just invented perpetual motion. But easy to check by reading your meter daily under both conditions. But Look on my phone gives the usage by the hour, day or month etc. And the cost. Via the smart meter. So you don't even need a pencil or calculator.
>> 
>> Good to hear you are managing, Pat. But do spare a thought for those where increased costs - mortgage or rent, food, etc have risen way more than their income. With massive heating bills being the last straw. And support those on strike to get a wage they can live on - while being sneered at by the multi-millionaires who run the country.
>> 
>> On 10/12/2022 14:48, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>>> I have a Smart meter for electricity,
>>> 
>>>  I believe it sends the info via Vodafone, because the engineer who installed it was checking the telephone signal strength.
>>> 
>>> Not for gas, I'm happy to read the meters for both and send in the reading.
>>> 
>>> As I'm elderly, now 80, heaven forbid, I received the Gov's ?500 towards energy bills, so I don't care as long as I am warm.
>>> 
>>> I run the heating at full blast 24 hrs. (gas fired, water radiators). It is more effective to keep the temp up, rather than
>>> running it down and then having to boost from lower temp. (I expect Woolf to come in and say I'm wrong!)
>>> 
>>> I also get an extra ?10 Christmas present added to the State Pension from the Gov, but they haven't taken any notice of the inflation rate!
>>> Me greedy? Yep!
>>> 
>>> Pat
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/12/2022 11:16, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
>>>> I've been doing some checks here with the new smart meters. They work OK - but the IHD not, even after being replaced. And more phone calls than I can count. First one only read gas - the new one just displays nonsense.  I have idly wondered which pals of the government got the contract to supply smart meters, given how useless they are. 
>>>> 
>>>> However, Look for the phone does work well. 
>>>> 
>>>> Since it's cold, decided to run the heating as before the price increases to see what it costs. Heating on from 0730 - 2400, and the target temperature for the living room 20C. 
>>>> 
>>>> Bill for yesterday almost exactly ?20. And used near enough the same kwh that day as I use in electricity in a month. 
>>>> 
>>>> Before the cold snap I'd set it to 18C - and only heated the kitchen, living room and bathroom. That cost less than ?10 a day. 
>>>> 
>>>> This is a three story Victorian semi with solid 9" brick walls. Double glazed with reasonable roof insulation. Tricky to improve the roof insulation due to the (newish) attic room, which is my bedroom. And really not sure how to insulate the walls without severe disruption. 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 10/12/2022 10:54, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote: 
>>>>> I have just ben informed by EDF that my monthly fuel bill for gas and electricity will change from ?333/month to ?469/month next year! Now, that's what I call inflation! No cheers, Dave 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 10 14:48:55 2022
From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 20:48:55 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Printing Avery labels in Word
Message-ID: <02c201d90cd8$d1898460$749c8d20$@gmail.com>

For some time I've been having problems printing Avery address labels with
Word on my PC. The files I had saved years ago which worked perfectly when I
set them up, still looked good on screen but when printing they slipped down
the page and didn't register with the labels. I tried adjusting the spacing
and checked at each stage by printing on a piece of plain paper rather than
ruining another sheet of labels but to no avail. I downloading the templates
again from the Avery website but that did no good either. I even tried
creating a table for the addresses but that proved difficult to set up with
the correct row and column height. Having wasted hours on it, I was about to
give up and resort to addressing my Christmas card envelopes long hand as I
did last year and the year before, then decided in desperation to look for
an answer on Google. Amazingly someone had answered that very question with
clear instructions on what to do. I followed these and magically everything
came good, which was such a relief that I thought I would share the solution
with you in case anyone else was having the same problem:

 

*	With the label file open in Word, click on File, Options, Advanced
and scroll down to the Print options, then uncheck the box "Scale content
for A4 or 8.5 x 11in paper sizes".

It really was that simple,

 

Geoff Hawkes

 

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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Sun Dec 11 04:26:31 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 10:26:31 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
Message-ID: <87d9deb3-6883-5ddd-ee05-cc355a67cff6@amps.net>

Coo! I'm rich!

Our generous government has increased my State Pension by 25p a week! 
This on surviving to 80.

If I had a coin-fed meter, I think it would be swallowed up in about ten 
seconds!
However, they have given me ?500 towards the energy bills.
And EDF have refunded me ?66 - maybe the Direct Debit was a bit high.

But with this perishing weather, every little bit helps.

Pppaaatt (in between shivers)
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From waresound at msn.com  Sun Dec 11 05:25:31 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 11:25:31 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <87d9deb3-6883-5ddd-ee05-cc355a67cff6@amps.net>
References: <87d9deb3-6883-5ddd-ee05-cc355a67cff6@amps.net>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB16045759600945106B368177A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

So you?re alright then, Jack. Those of us that, when the going gets tough, are ?Bank of Mum and Dad? have to think twice.
We?ve seen fit to shut off two bedrooms and the large dining room, which is a single storey room with a high vaulted-ceiling, commonly known in our family as the village hall.
Ironically, the freezer is out in the (also single storey) double garage/utility/Dad?s workshop, where I?m tempted to turn the freezer off altogether at the moment.
But there are countless people a lot worse off than you or me.
So by all means be snug, but let?s not be smug, whether in jest or not.
Nick.

Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 11 Dec 2022, at 10:27, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?

Coo! I'm rich!

Our generous government has increased my State Pension by 25p a week! This on surviving to 80.

If I had a coin-fed meter, I think it would be swallowed up in about ten seconds!
However, they have given me ?500 towards the energy bills.
And EDF have refunded me ?66 - maybe the Direct Debit was a bit high.

But with this perishing weather, every little bit helps.

Pppaaatt (in between shivers)

--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From mibridge at mac.com  Sun Dec 11 05:45:30 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 11:45:30 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB16045759600945106B368177A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AM9P191MB16045759600945106B368177A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>

Pat - the ?66 is an instalment of the ?400 which was granted to all directly metered customers - it?s what the park home owners have complained about, because they are not billed direct. It was paid through the energy providers and they make a credit to your account - why they didn?t just knock it off the bill I have no idea. I get the same from British Gas. 

Mike G

> On 11 Dec 2022, at 11:26, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ? So you?re alright then, Jack. Those of us that, when the going gets tough, are ?Bank of Mum and Dad? have to think twice.
> We?ve seen fit to shut off two bedrooms and the large dining room, which is a single storey room with a high vaulted-ceiling, commonly known in our family as the village hall.
> Ironically, the freezer is out in the (also single storey) double garage/utility/Dad?s workshop, where I?m tempted to turn the freezer off altogether at the moment.
> But there are countless people a lot worse off than you or me.
> So by all means be snug, but let?s not be smug, whether in jest or not.
> Nick.
> 
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
> 
>>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 10:27, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> Coo! I'm rich!
>> 
>> Our generous government has increased my State Pension by 25p a week! This on surviving to 80.
>> 
>> If I had a coin-fed meter, I think it would be swallowed up in about ten seconds!
>> However, they have given me ?500 towards the energy bills.
>> And EDF have refunded me ?66 - maybe the Direct Debit was a bit high.
>> 
>> But with this perishing weather, every little bit helps.
>> 
>> Pppaaatt (in between shivers)
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From paul at pgtmedia.co.uk  Sun Dec 11 05:59:41 2022
From: paul at pgtmedia.co.uk (Paul Thackray)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 11:59:41 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <36rr90rrcghmgopcf3e4kib1.1670759981766@pgtmedia.co.uk>

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From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 06:29:57 2022
From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 12:29:57 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
References: <AM9P191MB16045759600945106B368177A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <49b1fe30-ed6f-d5a4-e23e-d9abd804fdd9@gmail.com>

Hi all

On 11/12/2022 11:45, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote:
>
> But with this perishing weather? ....??? Pppaaatt (in between shivers)
>
Remember if the late 1940's, early 1950s...

Putting on your pyjamas in front of the living room (open coal) fire, 
then dashing upstairs as fast as possible to get into bed...

Waking up in the morning to have frost/ice? on the INSIDE of the window...

Having to go OUTSIDE of the house (sometimes across a yard, too) to the 
outside loo when you had to go ....

Making slides on the pavements and school playgrounds ....(and ne'ery a 
thought for the oldies like we are now...)


in early 1963, trying to open a railway carriage door when there was 
about a quarter-inch of ice on the door handle ...


Warmest regards,

Alec

-- 
=======

Alec Bray

alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
Mob:  07789 561 346
Tel:  0118 981 7502
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From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Sun Dec 11 06:35:06 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 12:35:06 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <49b1fe30-ed6f-d5a4-e23e-d9abd804fdd9@gmail.com>
References: <AM9P191MB16045759600945106B368177A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
	<49b1fe30-ed6f-d5a4-e23e-d9abd804fdd9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8A5EF310-D288-4D34-9D65-77EBA675B7F9@icloud.com>

I remember 1963, I earnt a fortume in tips clearing the neighbours drives and helping push cars out of snow drifts. we ilved on a bend where the camber went the wrong way and drivers who got it wrong ended up in the snow the opposite side of the road. Good boost to my pocket money (half a crown a week!).

> On 11 Dec 2022, at 12:29, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> On 11/12/2022 11:45, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote:
>> But with this perishing weather  ....    Pppaaatt (in between shivers)
> Remember if the late 1940's, early 1950s...
> Putting on your pyjamas in front of the living room (open coal) fire, then dashing upstairs as fast as possible to get into bed...
> Waking up in the morning to have frost/ice  on the INSIDE of the window...
> Having to go OUTSIDE of the house (sometimes across a yard, too) to the outside loo when you had to go ....
> Making slides on the pavements and school playgrounds ....(and ne'ery a thought for the oldies like we are now...)
> 
> in early 1963, trying to open a railway carriage door when there was about a quarter-inch of ice on the door handle ...
> 
> Warmest regards,
> Alec
> -- 
> =======
> 
> Alec Bray
> 
> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
> Mob: 07789 561 346
> Tel: 0118 981 7502
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From alanaudio at me.com  Sun Dec 11 06:47:43 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 12:47:43 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
References: <57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <59E4C9C2-0875-461D-A6D9-8DA1E5A8AC6D@me.com>

Do you know how many instalments will be paid and when? ?66 looks like it would be the first of six instalments with a final instalment of ?70.

My understanding is that everybody with an electricity account gets ?400, but has to pay it back again over the next few years with everybody having a supplementary charge on their electricity bill.  Will we have received all the payments before we start making the repayments?

My grandchildren are pretty miffed about this scheme too.  Two of them are in university accommodation and therefore don?t receive the ?400, but once they move out into the big wide world next year and get electricity accounts, will be having to pay it back as though they had received it.

Alan


> On 11 Dec 2022, at 11:46, Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Pat - the ?66 is an instalment of the ?400 which was granted to all directly metered customers - it?s what the park home owners have complained about, because they are not billed direct. It was paid through the energy providers and they make a credit to your account - why they didn?t just knock it off the bill I have no idea. I get the same from British Gas. 
> 
> Mike G


From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 06:52:29 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 12:52:29 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <8A5EF310-D288-4D34-9D65-77EBA675B7F9@icloud.com>
References: <AM9P191MB16045759600945106B368177A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
	<49b1fe30-ed6f-d5a4-e23e-d9abd804fdd9@gmail.com>
	<8A5EF310-D288-4D34-9D65-77EBA675B7F9@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <1faf1c14-5df2-c42c-515d-73e4130d9dcd@gmail.com>

I joined November 62. Home town Aberdeen where lots of snow inland the 
norm in winter. And was told I'd soon get soft living in the south. Only 
to encounter the hardest winter in London for many a year - since 1948? 
I had a bedsit with a gas fire and a coin in the slot meter - set to 
make a big profit for the landlord.? But then discovered the TV viewing 
room in the basement of TC where you could stay warm for free on a day 
off or after work.

On 11/12/2022 12:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote:
> I remember 1963, I earnt a fortume in tips clearing the neighbours drives and helping push cars out of snow drifts. we ilved on a bend where the camber went the wrong way and drivers who got it wrong ended up in the snow the opposite side of the road. Good boost to my pocket money (half a crown a week!).
>
>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 12:29, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>> On 11/12/2022 11:45, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote:
>>> But with this perishing weather  ....    Pppaaatt (in between shivers)
>> Remember if the late 1940's, early 1950s...
>> Putting on your pyjamas in front of the living room (open coal) fire, then dashing upstairs as fast as possible to get into bed...
>> Waking up in the morning to have frost/ice  on the INSIDE of the window...
>> Having to go OUTSIDE of the house (sometimes across a yard, too) to the outside loo when you had to go ....
>> Making slides on the pavements and school playgrounds ....(and ne'ery a thought for the oldies like we are now...)
>>
>> in early 1963, trying to open a railway carriage door when there was about a quarter-inch of ice on the door handle ...
>>
>> Warmest regards,
>> Alec
>> -- 
>> =======
>>
>> Alec Bray
>>
>> alec.bray.2 at gmail.com
>> Mob: 07789 561 346
>> Tel: 0118 981 7502
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> ?
> Graeme Wall
>
>
>


From pat.heigham at amps.net  Sun Dec 11 07:05:19 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 13:05:19 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <8A5EF310-D288-4D34-9D65-77EBA675B7F9@icloud.com>
References: <AM9P191MB16045759600945106B368177A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
	<49b1fe30-ed6f-d5a4-e23e-d9abd804fdd9@gmail.com>
	<8A5EF310-D288-4D34-9D65-77EBA675B7F9@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <a0b10161-8f12-67e2-e537-a9a34e6fa937@amps.net>

I don't remember the year, but one evening going home, I took a 
diversion where the snow was fresh, unmarked, and in my Triumph Herald, 
slammed on the brakes to see what happened.
The result was a skid, of course, heading straight for a lamppost!
Disaster was averted, as I had learned to drive in snow & ice whilst on 
a 17 week film shoot in a small Swiss Alpine village.
A most valuable experience and one that does not feature in the driving 
test - difficult in our (usually) mild climate!

Pat

On 11/12/2022 12:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote:
> I remember 1963, I earnt a fortume in tips clearing the neighbours drives and helping push cars out of snow drifts. we ilved on a bend where the camber went the wrong way and drivers who got it wrong ended up in the snow the opposite side of the road. Good boost to my pocket money (half a crown a week!).
>
>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 12:29, Alec Bray via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>> On 11/12/2022 11:45, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote:
>>> But with this perishing weather  ....    Pppaaatt (in between shivers)
>> Remember if the late 1940's, early 1950s...
>> Putting on your pyjamas in front of the living room (open coal) fire, then dashing upstairs as fast as possible to get into bed...
>> Waking up in the morning to have frost/ice  on the INSIDE of the window...
>> Having to go OUTSIDE of the house (sometimes across a yard, too) to the outside loo when you had to go ....
>> Making slides on the pavements and school playgrounds ....(and ne'ery a thought for the oldies like we are now...)
>>
>> in early 1963, trying to open a railway carriage door when there was about a quarter-inch of ice on the door handle ...
>>
>> Warmest regards,
>> Alec
>> -- 
>>
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 07:10:34 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 13:10:34 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <a0b10161-8f12-67e2-e537-a9a34e6fa937@amps.net>
References: <AM9P191MB16045759600945106B368177A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
	<49b1fe30-ed6f-d5a4-e23e-d9abd804fdd9@gmail.com>
	<8A5EF310-D288-4D34-9D65-77EBA675B7F9@icloud.com>
	<a0b10161-8f12-67e2-e537-a9a34e6fa937@amps.net>
Message-ID: <06e86267-0a45-4ce4-b22e-80c4724dc7c1@gmail.com>

Sounds like you hadn't learned how to drive in snow if you slammed the 
brakes on? ? But the highway code does give guidance for driving on 
slippery roads.

On 11/12/2022 13:05, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>
> I don't remember the year, but one evening going home, I took a 
> diversion where the snow was fresh, unmarked, and in my Triumph 
> Herald, slammed on the brakes to see what happened.
> The result was a skid, of course, heading straight for a lamppost!
> Disaster was averted, as I had learned to drive in snow & ice whilst 
> on a 17 week film shoot in a small Swiss Alpine village.
> A most valuable experience and one that does not feature in the 
> driving test - difficult in our (usually) mild climate!
>
> Pat
>
> On 11/12/2022 12:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote:
>> I remember 1963, I earnt a fortume in tips clearing the neighbours drives and helping push cars out of snow drifts. we ilved on a bend where the camber went the wrong way and drivers who got it wrong ended up in the snow the opposite side of the road. Good boost to my pocket money (half a crown a week!).
>>
>>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 12:29, Alec Bray via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all
>>> On 11/12/2022 11:45, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote:
>>>> But with this perishing weather  ....    Pppaaatt (in between shivers)
>>> Remember if the late 1940's, early 1950s...
>>> Putting on your pyjamas in front of the living room (open coal) fire, then dashing upstairs as fast as possible to get into bed...
>>> Waking up in the morning to have frost/ice  on the INSIDE of the window...
>>> Having to go OUTSIDE of the house (sometimes across a yard, too) to the outside loo when you had to go ....
>>> Making slides on the pavements and school playgrounds ....(and ne'ery a thought for the oldies like we are now...)
>>>
>>> in early 1963, trying to open a railway carriage door when there was about a quarter-inch of ice on the door handle ...
>>>
>>> Warmest regards,
>>> Alec
>>> -- 
>>>
>
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Sun Dec 11 07:25:57 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 13:25:57 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <06e86267-0a45-4ce4-b22e-80c4724dc7c1@gmail.com>
References: <AM9P191MB16045759600945106B368177A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<57AC2A0E-534E-4BC7-841A-E465FDF2C4F7@mac.com>
	<49b1fe30-ed6f-d5a4-e23e-d9abd804fdd9@gmail.com>
	<8A5EF310-D288-4D34-9D65-77EBA675B7F9@icloud.com>
	<a0b10161-8f12-67e2-e537-a9a34e6fa937@amps.net>
	<06e86267-0a45-4ce4-b22e-80c4724dc7c1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1e2bf2d-360b-c807-4d53-e7f8ba5114cc@amps.net>

Ah! But I deliberately wanted to institute a skid, on an impromptu skid 
pan, to practise extricating from it. (Didn't fully check the street 
furniture! - stupid boy!)

Pat


On 11/12/2022 13:10, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
>
> Sounds like you hadn't learned how to drive in snow if you slammed the 
> brakes on? ? But the highway code does give guidance for driving on 
> slippery roads.
>
> On 11/12/2022 13:05, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>>
>> I don't remember the year, but one evening going home, I took a 
>> diversion where the snow was fresh, unmarked, and in my Triumph 
>> Herald, slammed on the brakes to see what happened.
>> The result was a skid, of course, heading straight for a lamppost!
>> Disaster was averted, as I had learned to drive in snow & ice whilst 
>> on a 17 week film shoot in a small Swiss Alpine village.
>> A most valuable experience and one that does not feature in the 
>> driving test - difficult in our (usually) mild climate!
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> On 11/12/2022 12:35, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote:
>>> I remember 1963, I earnt a fortume in tips clearing the neighbours drives and helping push cars out of snow drifts. we ilved on a bend where the camber went the wrong way and drivers who got it wrong ended up in the snow the opposite side of the road. Good boost to my pocket money (half a crown a week!).
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From doug at puddifoot.me  Sun Dec 11 09:04:43 2022
From: doug at puddifoot.me (Doug Puddifoot)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 15:04:43 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
Message-ID: <6clps9hl5kj4g33uukclsh24.1670770930447@email.android.com>

And.......
the tin bath in front of the fire, 
chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
toast made with the long toasting fork.

Doug

On 11 December 2022, at 12:29, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

Hi all

On 11/12/2022 11:45, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote:

But with this perishing weather? ....??? Pppaaatt (in between shivers)

Remember if the late 1940's, early 1950s...

Putting on your pyjamas in front of the living room (open coal) fire, then dashing upstairs as fast as possible to get into bed...

Waking up in the morning to have frost/ice? on the INSIDE of the window...

Having to go OUTSIDE of the house (sometimes across a yard, too) to the outside loo when you had to go ....

Making slides on the pavements and school playgrounds ....(and ne'ery a thought for the oldies like we are now...)


in early 1963, trying to open a railway carriage door when there was about a quarter-inch of ice on the door handle ...


Warmest regards,

Alec

-- ======= Alec Bray alec.bray.2 at gmail.com Mob: 07789 561 346 Tel: 0118 981 7502 
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From mikej at bmanor.co.uk  Sun Dec 11 10:32:49 2022
From: mikej at bmanor.co.uk (Mike Jordan)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 16:32:49 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <6clps9hl5kj4g33uukclsh24.1670770930447@email.android.com>
References: <6clps9hl5kj4g33uukclsh24.1670770930447@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <A513360F90E44C54AFFCA50DB70F3ECD@Gigabyte>

Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home (walking through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to toast the crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it ready for the evenings fire!
And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.

Mike

From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity

And.......
the tin bath in front of the fire, 
chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
toast made with the long toasting fork.

Doug
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From waresound at msn.com  Sun Dec 11 11:39:42 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 17:39:42 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <A513360F90E44C54AFFCA50DB70F3ECD@Gigabyte>
References: <A513360F90E44C54AFFCA50DB70F3ECD@Gigabyte>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB1604CB18C818B13620C50850A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Yes, I vividly remember all those things too, but we live in a different age now where we?re not able to survive under such conditions.
What I didn?t mention earlier was that of all times for it to happen, our two year old Worcester boiler packed up last night, and even with what few electric heater options we have, it?s still effing cold here!
As they say in show business: timing is everything!
And, we had a totally new bathroom installed just under three years ago, and decided that a Triton electric shower would be a wise non-gas standby option, the en-suite being off the hot tank (gas). The Triton too, packed up a month ago, and guess what ? obsolete now and no spare parts available. So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
Thank God for the best of all comforts the World has to offer: a warm loving wife to snuggle up to! And making a one-off exception to normal house rules, two King Charles Cavaliers to keep our feet warm.
Creature comforts: never more true!
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 11 Dec 2022, at 16:33, Mike Jordan via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?
Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home (walking through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to toast the crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it ready for the evenings fire!
And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.

Mike

From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1<mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk<mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity


And.......
the tin bath in front of the fire,
chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
toast made with the long toasting fork.

Doug

--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From alanaudio at me.com  Sun Dec 11 12:13:12 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 18:13:12 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB1604CB18C818B13620C50850A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AM9P191MB1604CB18C818B13620C50850A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <D6DC5BCA-F014-4CA5-98CC-0A3839BEFA98@me.com>

I had a great aunt who lived in a very old cottage.  All cooking was done on an Aga, well probably not an actual Aga, but something that looked like one.  It was coal fuelled and was always running ( mining family - coal was  given free to miners ).

There were two little guest rooms for us boys to fight over.  A lovely one at the front of the house, with nice views almost to the sea, or a tiny bedroom over the kitchen.  Needless to say I always tried to bag the room over the Aga during the winter and tried to avoid having that room when the weather was hot.

My mum's twin brother also worked in the mines as an electrician.  If you visited his house in August, there was always a fire going in the front room because it heated the water via a back boiler.  There was an immersion heater, but it was never used.  His Scottish roots showed through when he insisted that of course the room is unbearably hot, but electricity costs money.

Alan



> On 11 Dec 2022, at 17:40, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ? Yes, I vividly remember all those things too, but we live in a different age now where we?re not able to survive under such conditions. 
> What I didn?t mention earlier was that of all times for it to happen, our two year old Worcester boiler packed up last night, and even with what few electric heater options we have, it?s still effing cold here!
> As they say in show business: timing is everything!
> And, we had a totally new bathroom installed just under three years ago, and decided that a Triton electric shower would be a wise non-gas standby option, the en-suite being off the hot tank (gas). The Triton too, packed up a month ago, and guess what ? obsolete now and no spare parts available. So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
> Thank God for the best of all comforts the World has to offer: a warm loving wife to snuggle up to! And making a one-off exception to normal house rules, two King Charles Cavaliers to keep our feet warm. 
> Creature comforts: never more true!
> N.
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
> 
>>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 16:33, Mike Jordan via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home (walking through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to toast the crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
>> Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it ready for the evenings fire!
>> And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.
>>  
>> Mike
>>  
>> From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1
>> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
>> To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity
>>  
>> And.......
>> the tin bath in front of the fire, 
>> chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
>> toast made with the long toasting fork.
>> 
>> Doug
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Sun Dec 11 13:06:00 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:06:00 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <A513360F90E44C54AFFCA50DB70F3ECD@Gigabyte>
References: <6clps9hl5kj4g33uukclsh24.1670770930447@email.android.com>
	<A513360F90E44C54AFFCA50DB70F3ECD@Gigabyte>
Message-ID: <9AE8F334BB044EF98E6FD8591B2ECA7C@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

I have not a few memories sparked by all these recollections. Though all Yorkshire born, my family moved to Jersey in Jan 1947 renting a large house in Pier Road opposite the Museum. Dad was a postman and when the plans for Pier Road included demolition of our home he applied for a transfer back to the mainland which brought us to Somerset. Dad transferred to Taunton in July 1950, found himself some digs and set about finding a home for the family.

The best he could manage was a sub-tenancy in a tied farm cottage where the deceased farmhand?s widow had been allowed to stay on following his death. Mum, my sister and myself left Jersey in Nov. 1950 and we all moved into this cottage in a rural village near Taunton. There was no sanitation, no water supply, no gas and no electricity.

Heating was confined to the living/dining room, provided by an ancient cast iron range (black-leaded as often as mum could manage). What wasn?t cooked there was done on an old Valor Paraffin cooking stove in a lean-to scullery. The widow, who lived at ground floor in what had been the ?front room?, would not permit the Valor to be used on Sundays. Lighting was by Aladdin paraffin lamps, the radio was powered by a number of lead acid glass accumulators which were very heavy and had to be carried into Taunton periodically to be re-charged. Our water (apart from harvested rainwater) had to be carried, a couple of 2-gallon buckets at a time, from the farmyard pump 300 yds distant.

We had cylindrical stone hot water bottles for bed warming. The toilet arrangements were not even an Elsan chemical (remember them ? looked like small oil drums with seats on top). No, in an outhouse we had a planked top with a cut-out which straddled a large galvanised receptacle which regularly had to have it?s contents buried in the back garden in holes deep dug by spade every time and back filled.

Friday was bath night in a parallel of Doug?s ?tin bath? ? actually galvanised steel of course. It hung outside on a hefty nail beside the back door. It was placed in front of the range, water painstakingly boiled and carried through.  My sister (who looked no dirtier than when she had climbed out of the tub the previous Friday) was first, I was last because I was a grubby urchin ? I knew my place.

The widow succumbed to a stroke and had to be cared for. Her family showed no interest whatever so my parents had to nurse her and see to her every requirement. It was deemed unworkable for my sister and I to be there so we decamped to the village school half a mile away where the two spinster teachers shared the schoolhouse. They were absolutely adorable and cared for and spoiled us both something rotten. We were there for quite a few weeks before the widow died, in warm surroundings with every comfort ? we were on permanent holiday! When we returned home I remember the widow?s family (nieces and nephews, no children) descending in order to strip whatever they could.

The farmer immediately wanted us out ? he said for a farmhand but in fact he wanted to sell it. After the village rector had interceded on our behalf with the local council we fetched up in a 1927 built council house on a pretty rough estate, which could well be the start of another batch of recollections!

This is not offered as my entry in a competition of suffering. I wasn?t suffering ? I was as happy as Larry, living outdoors in the countryside with a freedom denied youngsters today. Mum and Dad had a hard time of it but we were as well cared for as any children so I don?t look back in anguish, quite the opposite.

Dave Newbitt.  PS. What a sad coincidence that Pier Road should feature news-wise this weekend following the dreadful explosion.

From: Mike Jordan via Tech1 
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2022 4:32 PM
To: Doug Puddifoot ; tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity

Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home (walking through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to toast the crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it ready for the evenings fire!
And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.

Mike

From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity

And.......
the tin bath in front of the fire, 
chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
toast made with the long toasting fork.

Doug



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 13:06:49 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:06:49 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB1604CB18C818B13620C50850A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <A513360F90E44C54AFFCA50DB70F3ECD@Gigabyte>
	<AM9P191MB1604CB18C818B13620C50850A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <55f1e90a-ca40-ae67-086e-fb1631e9a8dc@gmail.com>

Must admit I simply ignore these regs - when I honestly don't see the 
point in them. At one time, you could install an electric shower 
yourself (if competent, of course). Next minute you can't even replace 
an existing one - and that despite it being RCD or RCBO protected. So I 
don't care if paperwork is missing for such things - let whoever buys 
here when I'm 6 ft under worry about it. I'd have a lot more time for 
the trade bodies who demand such things if they also protected customers 
from their dodgy members.

On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
> Yes, I vividly remember all those things too, but we live in a 
> different age now where we?re not able to survive under such conditions.
> What I didn?t mention earlier was that of all times for it to happen, 
> our two year old Worcester boiler packed up last night, and even with 
> what few electric heater options we have, it?s still effing cold here!
> As they say in show business: timing is everything!
> And, we had a totally new bathroom installed just under three years 
> ago, and decided that a Triton electric shower would be a wise non-gas 
> standby option, the en-suite being off the hot tank (gas). The Triton 
> too, packed up a month ago, and guess what ? obsolete now and no spare 
> parts available. So, bought a new better replacement, and still 
> waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily 
> could, but can?t do it).
> Thank God for the best of all comforts the World has to offer: a warm 
> loving wife to snuggle up to! And making a one-off exception to normal 
> house rules, two King Charles Cavaliers to keep our feet warm.
> Creature comforts: never more true!
> N.
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 16:33, Mike Jordan via Tech1 
>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home (walking 
>> through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to toast the 
>> crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
>> Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it 
>> ready for the evenings fire!
>> And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.
>> Mike
>> *From:* Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 <mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
>> *To:* tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity
>>
>> And.......
>> the tin bath in front of the fire,
>> chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
>> toast made with the long toasting fork.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From alanaudio at me.com  Sun Dec 11 13:23:19 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:23:19 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <55f1e90a-ca40-ae67-086e-fb1631e9a8dc@gmail.com>
References: <55f1e90a-ca40-ae67-086e-fb1631e9a8dc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C03DB912-ACAB-4824-9627-9E69E5E4EFEA@me.com>

It seems entirely predictable that at a time when this government is getting rid of red tape and regulations for everything from the financial sector to food standards, I?ve yet to hear of any proposal to get rid of the regulations regarding Part ?P? and inspection of electrical work.

Alan



> On 11 Dec 2022, at 19:07, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Must admit I simply ignore these regs - when I honestly don't see the point in them. At one time, you could install an electric shower yourself (if competent, of course). Next minute you can't even replace an existing one - and that despite it being RCD or RCBO protected. So I don't care if paperwork is missing for such things - let whoever buys here when I'm 6 ft under worry about it. I'd have a lot more time for the trade bodies who demand such things if they also protected customers from their dodgy members.
> 
> On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
>> Yes, I vividly remember all those things too, but we live in a different age now where we?re not able to survive under such conditions. 
>> What I didn?t mention earlier was that of all times for it to happen, our two year old Worcester boiler packed up last night, and even with what few electric heater options we have, it?s still effing cold here!
>> As they say in show business: timing is everything!
>> And, we had a totally new bathroom installed just under three years ago, and decided that a Triton electric shower would be a wise non-gas standby option, the en-suite being off the hot tank (gas). The Triton too, packed up a month ago, and guess what ? obsolete now and no spare parts available. So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
>> Thank God for the best of all comforts the World has to offer: a warm loving wife to snuggle up to! And making a one-off exception to normal house rules, two King Charles Cavaliers to keep our feet warm. 
>> Creature comforts: never more true!
>> N.
>> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 16:33, Mike Jordan via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home (walking through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to toast the crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
>>> Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it ready for the evenings fire!
>>> And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.
>>>  
>>> Mike
>>>  
>>> From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
>>> To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity
>>>  
>>> And.......
>>> the tin bath in front of the fire, 
>>> chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
>>> toast made with the long toasting fork.
>>> 
>>> Doug
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From alawrance1 at me.com  Sun Dec 11 13:37:28 2022
From: alawrance1 at me.com (Alasdair Lawrance)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:37:28 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <55f1e90a-ca40-ae67-086e-fb1631e9a8dc@gmail.com>
References: <55f1e90a-ca40-ae67-086e-fb1631e9a8dc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2FA63F02-CD2F-451A-BA73-70C52A2488B8@me.com>

Re. Regs. about what you can and can't do, I always thought if it was your own property/appliance/problem you could do it yourself if competent?  Maybe that's changed.

In the bitter cold of winter in Aberdeen, I still had to deliver the orders placed at my father's butcher shop.  The orders were delivered in one of those bicycles with a small front wheel and normal back wheel. The basket in front could therefore be quite heavy and prone to emptying especially in freezing conditions when any kind of control was missing. Fortunately, customers, usually housewives in those far off times, were extremely understanding and would regularly ply the delivery boy with hot chocolate, always welcome.

A welcome side effect was a relationship with the confectioners in an adjacent stall in the market. I never knew sweets were on ration until 1953, and difficult to get for quite a while  after that....


Alasdair Lawrance

Don?t blame me, I voted Remain.



> On 11 Dec 2022, at 19:07, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Must admit I simply ignore these regs - when I honestly don't see the point in them. At one time, you could install an electric shower yourself (if competent, of course). Next minute you can't even replace an existing one - and that despite it being RCD or RCBO protected. So I don't care if paperwork is missing for such things - let whoever buys here when I'm 6 ft under worry about it. I'd have a lot more time for the trade bodies who demand such things if they also protected customers from their dodgy members.
> 
> On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
>> Yes, I vividly remember all those things too, but we live in a different age now where we?re not able to survive under such conditions. 
>> What I didn?t mention earlier was that of all times for it to happen, our two year old Worcester boiler packed up last night, and even with what few electric heater options we have, it?s still effing cold here!
>> As they say in show business: timing is everything!
>> And, we had a totally new bathroom installed just under three years ago, and decided that a Triton electric shower would be a wise non-gas standby option, the en-suite being off the hot tank (gas). The Triton too, packed up a month ago, and guess what ? obsolete now and no spare parts available. So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
>> Thank God for the best of all comforts the World has to offer: a warm loving wife to snuggle up to! And making a one-off exception to normal house rules, two King Charles Cavaliers to keep our feet warm. 
>> Creature comforts: never more true!
>> N.
>> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 16:33, Mike Jordan via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home (walking through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to toast the crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
>>> Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it ready for the evenings fire!
>>> And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.
>>>  
>>> Mike
>>>  
>>> From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
>>> To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity
>>>  
>>> And.......
>>> the tin bath in front of the fire, 
>>> chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
>>> toast made with the long toasting fork.
>>> 
>>> Doug
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Sun Dec 11 13:50:45 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:50:45 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <49b1fe30-ed6f-d5a4-e23e-d9abd804fdd9@gmail.com>
References: <49b1fe30-ed6f-d5a4-e23e-d9abd804fdd9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A991681-3F9C-4BB5-86F9-27B0B786847D@sky.com>

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From saranewman at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 11 17:31:32 2022
From: saranewman at hotmail.com (Sara Newman)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 23:31:32 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <55f1e90a-ca40-ae67-086e-fb1631e9a8dc@gmail.com>
References: <55f1e90a-ca40-ae67-086e-fb1631e9a8dc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB9P195MB20845FDEB361A4BDA79E06D7D01E9@DB9P195MB2084.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi, I love these wonderful memories. I lived in North Manchester and we were the only non Jewish family in our area.The Orthodox Jews couldn?t even move a chair so they need a Shaboss Goy My brother and I had a going concern of making fires on Friday evenings at the beginning of the Sabbath. Turning on water heaters Then doing it all again on Saturday mornings. My brother showed me how to build and start a fire with two matches max and the faster we worked the more houses we could do. This was before CH and time switches. I learnt so much At the end of Passover we were always given a box of matso and my favourite was hot bagels with salted butter on Sunday Mornings when we went to the Jewish bakers. Fun times Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Dec 2022, at 19:07, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?

Must admit I simply ignore these regs - when I honestly don't see the point in them. At one time, you could install an electric shower yourself (if competent, of course). Next minute you can't even replace an existing one - and that despite it being RCD or RCBO protected. So I don't care if paperwork is missing for such things - let whoever buys here when I'm 6 ft under worry about it. I'd have a lot more time for the trade bodies who demand such things if they also protected customers from their dodgy members.

On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
Yes, I vividly remember all those things too, but we live in a different age now where we?re not able to survive under such conditions.
What I didn?t mention earlier was that of all times for it to happen, our two year old Worcester boiler packed up last night, and even with what few electric heater options we have, it?s still effing cold here!
As they say in show business: timing is everything!
And, we had a totally new bathroom installed just under three years ago, and decided that a Triton electric shower would be a wise non-gas standby option, the en-suite being off the hot tank (gas). The Triton too, packed up a month ago, and guess what ? obsolete now and no spare parts available. So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
Thank God for the best of all comforts the World has to offer: a warm loving wife to snuggle up to! And making a one-off exception to normal house rules, two King Charles Cavaliers to keep our feet warm.
Creature comforts: never more true!
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 11 Dec 2022, at 16:33, Mike Jordan via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk><mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?
Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home (walking through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to toast the crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it ready for the evenings fire!
And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.

Mike

From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1<mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk<mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity


And.......
the tin bath in front of the fire,
chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
toast made with the long toasting fork.

Doug

--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk<mailto:Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
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From philiptyler at me.com  Mon Dec 12 03:37:31 2022
From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 09:37:31 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy Bill Support Scheme
Message-ID: <E39897FC-5BE4-43CD-A829-4BE6E5BD4DBA@me.com>

I saw Pat mention a ?66 rebate and Mike pointing out this may be the government payment.

So I thought I would forward this for information in case anyone missed it.

Energy Bills Support Scheme 
?400 off energy bills for households in Great Britain from this October. This automatic, non-repayable discount will be applied in six instalments between October 2022 and March 2023 to help households through winter.
There is no need to apply for the scheme and you will not be asked for your bank details.
The discount will be applied to your monthly household electricity bill for 6 months starting in October 2022. You?ll get:

?66 in October and November
?67 in December, January, February and March
Plus you should receive an extra ?300 on the winter fuel payment, resulting in a ?500 payment this year. DEP WFP is the reference.

Hope that helps?

Philip and Bee

https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/
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From waresound at msn.com  Mon Dec 12 04:31:05 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:31:05 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB160461935828CDCF9CDC4AD4A7E29@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

?
?Well it all depends on your own circumstances. Me, I have a wife 20 years younger than me, four children from two marriages and six grandchildren, so I do care. I care about whether insurance will pay out in the event of a mishap of my doing. I care about whether the house is sellable or mortgageable after I?m gone. And if we decide that this isn?t our forever home and want to move on, my conscience wouldn?t allow me to leave the buyer with the appalling electrical bodgery that we found after we moved in. That despite surveys and certificates of gas and electrical safety inspection that turned out to be recent, but ficticious. The vendor was a do it-yourselfer of the worse order. No going back once contracts are exchanged.

I have a story that I feel I should tell here, about an uncle and aunt (married couple) who died 20 months ago within three days of each other. Their Wills, assets, two houses, etc., should have been straightforward, but turned in to a nightmare of legal procrastination and absolute ineptitude. Still not resolved, no time to properly mourn the loss, and still no end in sight. But that?s for another day. A significant part of the problem was Uncle?s over-anbitious DIY efforts.

Since I wrote the above last night I?m pleased to report that with a bit of investigation I?ve got the boiler going full blast in catch-up mode now. Fingers crossed all good now.

Oh, and by the way, Pat, I got my 25p per week two months ago, so I?m ?2 better off than you!
Cheers,
Nick.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 11 Dec 2022, at 19:07, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?

Must admit I simply ignore these regs - when I honestly don't see the point in them. At one time, you could install an electric shower yourself (if competent, of course). Next minute you can't even replace an existing one - and that despite it being RCD or RCBO protected. So I don't care if paperwork is missing for such things - let whoever buys here when I'm 6 ft under worry about it. I'd have a lot more time for the trade bodies who demand such things if they also protected customers from their dodgy members.

On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
Yes, I vividly remember all those things too, but we live in a different age now where we?re not able to survive under such conditions.
What I didn?t mention earlier was that of all times for it to happen, our two year old Worcester boiler packed up last night, and even with what few electric heater options we have, it?s still effing cold here!
As they say in show business: timing is everything!
And, we had a totally new bathroom installed just under three years ago, and decided that a Triton electric shower would be a wise non-gas standby option, the en-suite being off the hot tank (gas). The Triton too, packed up a month ago, and guess what ? obsolete now and no spare parts available. So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
Thank God for the best of all comforts the World has to offer: a warm loving wife to snuggle up to! And making a one-off exception to normal house rules, two King Charles Cavaliers to keep our feet warm.
Creature comforts: never more true!
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 11 Dec 2022, at 16:33, Mike Jordan via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk><mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?
Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home (walking through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to toast the crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it ready for the evenings fire!
And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.

Mike

From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1<mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk<mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity


And.......
the tin bath in front of the fire,
chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
toast made with the long toasting fork.

Doug

--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk<mailto:Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Mon Dec 12 05:01:12 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:01:12 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB1604CB18C818B13620C50850A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <A513360F90E44C54AFFCA50DB70F3ECD@Gigabyte>
	<AM9P191MB1604CB18C818B13620C50850A71E9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <c1c42d72-f5f0-0a75-6f4f-ee8a680528f3@chriswoolf.co.uk>


On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
> .....So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that 
> to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).


I have to admit to disobeying those sort of rules. Gas, yes - because I 
know that without a certificate the insurance won't pay up if the 
kitchen is destroyed by an explosion. But electric?

Technically my resurrected barn needed an electrician to instal the 
lighting and couple of 13A sockets, along with 100m of conduit etc. 
Given that hardly any houses can come up with an installation 
certificate, and half the electricians I've met working on other peoples 
properties never get round to issuing the paperwork (prob ably because 
they aren't actually certified to do it) I don't think the regs really 
cut it. So I'm afraid I just did it myself....

When the house was refurbished a decade ago we used a fully registered 
electrician to do the complete rewire and re-everything - an essential 
job, that was done superbly - but it took nearly a year to get the 
paperwork out of his company, and that only by nagging every few months.

The motive behind the regulations are good, but as always with our 
government, the training and qualification of technicians, the issuing 
of certification for them as a profit-centre, and the cutting back on 
every inspectorate, means that the rules are near-enough pointless.

Chris Woolf




From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Mon Dec 12 05:06:49 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:06:49 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <9AE8F334BB044EF98E6FD8591B2ECA7C@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <6clps9hl5kj4g33uukclsh24.1670770930447@email.android.com>
	<A513360F90E44C54AFFCA50DB70F3ECD@Gigabyte>
	<9AE8F334BB044EF98E6FD8591B2ECA7C@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <94540e60-1801-8f97-2c70-6915fca561e6@chriswoolf.co.uk>


On 11/12/2022 19:06, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
> ....No, in an outhouse we had a planked top with a cut-out which 
> straddled a large galvanised receptacle ....

As part of the history of our rural idyll we have a couple of "bucket 
slates" from the distant past. These are slates that have a round hole 
to locate the foot of the bucket under the seat plank - made sure the 
alignment was correct, and probably that no temporary tenant kicked the 
bucket;}

Chris Woolf

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From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Mon Dec 12 05:11:04 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:11:04 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB160461935828CDCF9CDC4AD4A7E29@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AM9P191MB160461935828CDCF9CDC4AD4A7E29@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <2cb39351-3830-dff9-7012-b15143232ab3@chriswoolf.co.uk>


On 12/12/2022 10:31, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
> ?....
> Since I wrote the above last night I?m pleased to report that with a 
> bit of investigation I?ve got the boiler going full blast in catch-up 
> mode now. Fingers crossed all good now.
>
Ooh Nick! I hope you didn't meddle with the boiler as an unqualified 
engineer;}?? Though I would have done exactly the same (if we had a gas 
boiler) on the basis that freezing to death would be a worse evil.

Chris Woolf



From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 05:12:04 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:12:04 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB160461935828CDCF9CDC4AD4A7E29@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AM9P191MB160461935828CDCF9CDC4AD4A7E29@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <352b99b5-981f-1845-0607-7c708e600e4d@gmail.com>

Think you've made my point for me, Nick.? Honest people and tradesman 
will do things by the book.? But those who lobby for these restrictions 
aren't interested in policing the cowboys. Of course if you are not 
competent to work on electrics, I'd not suggest you DIY it.

On 12/12/2022 10:31, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
> ?
> ?Well it all depends on your own circumstances. Me, I have a wife 20 
> years younger than me, four children from two marriages and six 
> grandchildren, so I do care. I care about whether insurance will pay 
> out in the event of a mishap of my doing. I care about whether the 
> house is sellable or mortgageable after I?m gone. And if we decide 
> that this isn?t our forever home and want to move on, my conscience 
> wouldn?t allow me to leave the buyer with the appalling electrical 
> bodgery that we found after we moved in. That despite surveys and 
> certificates of gas and electrical safety inspection that turned out 
> to be recent, but ficticious. The vendor was a do it-yourselfer of the 
> worse order. No going back once contracts are exchanged.
>
> I have a story that I feel I should tell here, about an uncle and aunt 
> (married couple) who died 20 months ago within three days of each 
> other. Their Wills, assets, two houses, etc., should have been 
> straightforward, but turned in to a nightmare of legal procrastination 
> and absolute ineptitude. Still not resolved, no time to properly mourn 
> the loss, and still no end in sight. But that?s for another day. A 
> significant part of the problem was Uncle?s over-anbitious DIY efforts.
>
> Since I wrote the above last night I?m pleased to report that with a 
> bit of investigation I?ve got the boiler going full blast in catch-up 
> mode now. Fingers crossed all good now.
>
> Oh, and by the way, Pat, I got my 25p per week two months ago, so I?m 
> ?2 better off than you!
> Cheers,
> Nick.
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 19:07, Dave Plowman via Tech1 
>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Must admit I simply ignore these regs - when I honestly don't see the 
>> point in them. At one time, you could install an electric shower 
>> yourself (if competent, of course). Next minute you can't even 
>> replace an existing one - and that despite it being RCD or RCBO 
>> protected. So I don't care if paperwork is missing for such things - 
>> let whoever buys here when I'm 6 ft under worry about it. I'd have a 
>> lot more time for the trade bodies who demand such things if they 
>> also protected customers from their dodgy members.
>>
>> On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
>>> Yes, I vividly remember all those things too, but we live in a 
>>> different age now where we?re not able to survive under such 
>>> conditions.
>>> What I didn?t mention earlier was that of all times for it to 
>>> happen, our two year old Worcester boiler packed up last night, and 
>>> even with what few electric heater options we have, it?s still 
>>> effing cold here!
>>> As they say in show business: timing is everything!
>>> And, we had a totally new bathroom installed just under three years 
>>> ago, and decided that a Triton electric shower would be a wise 
>>> non-gas standby option, the en-suite being off the hot tank (gas). 
>>> The Triton too, packed up a month ago, and guess what ? obsolete now 
>>> and no spare parts available. So, bought a new better replacement, 
>>> and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, 
>>> I easily could, but can?t do it).
>>> Thank God for the best of all comforts the World has to offer: a 
>>> warm loving wife to snuggle up to! And making a one-off exception to 
>>> normal house rules, two King Charles Cavaliers to keep our feet warm.
>>> Creature comforts: never more true!
>>> N.
>>> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>> On 11 Dec 2022, at 16:33, Mike Jordan via Tech1 
>>>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>> Not forgetting as a primary school pupil having to come home 
>>>> (walking through the fog feeling the way by the known fences) to 
>>>> toast the crumpets over Nan?s open fire.
>>>> Then next morning before school, clear out that grate leaving it 
>>>> ready for the evenings fire!
>>>> And fire/heating in my bedroom? Never.
>>>> Mike
>>>> *From:* Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 <mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, December 11, 2022 3:04 PM
>>>> *To:* tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] DWP generosity
>>>>
>>>> And.......
>>>> the tin bath in front of the fire,
>>>> chestnuts on the shovel over the coals,
>>>> toast made with the long toasting fork.
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>>
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Mon Dec 12 06:19:08 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:19:08 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy Bill Support Scheme
In-Reply-To: <E39897FC-5BE4-43CD-A829-4BE6E5BD4DBA@me.com>
References: <E39897FC-5BE4-43CD-A829-4BE6E5BD4DBA@me.com>
Message-ID: <232bcb77-de41-4c84-9892-4405c276483f@amps.net>

Thanks for the explanation Philip,

I have received two lots of ?66 and also the ?500.

It's nice to get something back, for a change!

Pat

On 12/12/2022 09:37, Philip Tyler via Tech1 wrote:

> I saw Pat mention a ?66 rebate and Mike pointing out this may be the 
> government payment.
>
> So I thought I would forward this for information in case anyone 
> missed it.
> *
> *
> *Energy Bills Support Scheme *
>
> ?400 off energy bills for households in Great Britain from this 
> October. This?automatic,?non-repayable discount will be applied in six 
> instalments?between October 2022 and March 2023?to help households 
> through winter.
>
> There is no need to apply for the scheme and you will not be asked for 
> your bank details.
>
> The discount will be applied to your monthly household electricity 
> bill for 6 months starting in October 2022. You?ll get:
>
>   * ?66 in October and November
>   * ?67 in December, January, February and March
>
> Plus you should receive an extra ?300 on the winter fuel payment, 
> resulting in a ?500 payment this year. DEP WFP is the reference.
>
> Hope that helps?
>
> Philip and Bee
>
> https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/
>
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From w12rogers at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 06:48:35 2022
From: w12rogers at gmail.com (Georgie and Steve Rogers)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:48:35 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Shirley Coward
Message-ID: <CAJa+fU7S6tm0T97vEKbHvai1DB4vo_EmcBK-4n7YEBdxAH1rOQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just seen on the TVC web site Shirley has died.Has anybody any more
information
Steve .
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From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Mon Dec 12 06:57:16 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:57:16 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Shirley Coward
In-Reply-To: <CAJa+fU7S6tm0T97vEKbHvai1DB4vo_EmcBK-4n7YEBdxAH1rOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJa+fU7S6tm0T97vEKbHvai1DB4vo_EmcBK-4n7YEBdxAH1rOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F07881D1-ED34-43E0-B54E-03D5331F0AB5@icloud.com>

That?s sad, she was a lovely lady

> On 12 Dec 2022, at 12:48, Georgie and Steve Rogers via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Just seen on the TVC web site Shirley has died.Has anybody any more information
> Steve .
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From alanaudio at me.com  Mon Dec 12 08:03:15 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 14:03:15 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <c1c42d72-f5f0-0a75-6f4f-ee8a680528f3@chriswoolf.co.uk>
References: <c1c42d72-f5f0-0a75-6f4f-ee8a680528f3@chriswoolf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A65F47C4-2080-4943-B9EE-245EAE7FB4A6@me.com>

There?s no way I would consider doing any DIY regarding gas, even if our house had it and I was allowed to, but I?m quite confident that I can do electrical work to a pretty good standard. I can certainly do electrical work to a better standard than the bloke we first used to maintain our boiler.  He was supposed to be fully qualified, but did some quite worrying things, however we stopped using him some years ago.

When the new ?don?t DIY? electrical regs were introduced around 2000, it happened at about the same time as the wiring colours changed. Red/black became brown/blue. I was told that if a surveyor has any doubts about whether electrical work was done before those regs, they only needed to loosen a socket and see the colour of the wiring.

As it happened, my brother died at about that time and he was an electrician.  When clearing out his place I found a few reels of twin & earth cable of various sizes using the old colour convention, along with a drum of armoured cable bearing a date stamp which pre-dated those regulations. I kept those cables because they might be a useful source of sturdy cable for electronic projects, but when I moved into this house in 2012, they proved to be very useful for upgrading the garage electricity supply and running power to the patio.  

When we had our kitchen refitted, we also had a major rewiring job done, involving removing a fuse box and installing a large consumer unit in a more convenient position.  The electrician had to test every socket on site in order to certify it and it all turned out to be fine.  He commented that he was surprised to see such a nicely installed garage supply with metal clad sockets and conduit everywhere. Houses of that age generally just had garages with exposed cables stapled to the wall. I told him that I reckon it?s a retrofit and not original. He agreed, but added it was definitely done about twenty five years ago, with the exception of the LED lighting in the roof. He pointed to the breaker box which was quite old and a little rusty and said that you can see all the wiring is original.

I thought he might condemn my outdoor power to the patio, but again he was happy with it.  It was tested and proved to be safe.  I re-used some rather nice MK waterproof switches and mains sockets which I originally got for supplying power to my Ursta cart  in the 1990s, so they were from before the change in regs, as was the date on the armoured cable. Everything is fine and I now have an approval certificate for when I sell the place. 

When we were house hunting, some of the houses we looked at were obviously owned by DIY enthusiasts.  I always looked very carefully to see how well they did jobs and also made sure to check out the garage or shed to see whether they had appropriate tools. In most cases I decided against buying that house specifically because of worries about what might subsequently come to light.  The house I did buy was owned by a couple who didn?t do DIY. In some ways, it would have been better if they had because it needed a bit of TLC, but the bottom line is that we?ve been here ten years and there have been very few issues regarding botched work. The biggest horrors concerned electrical work on the old kitchen we ripped out, which was almost certainly installed by a ?professional?.  For instance, the isolator switch for the cooker hood was just a fused switch outlet with no back box, just wrapped up in pvc tape and stuffed inside the back of the housing. I had looked for it many times and finally discovered it when I took it apart.

Alan



> On 12 Dec 2022, at 11:02, Chris Woolf via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
>> On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
>> .....So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
> 
> 
> I have to admit to disobeying those sort of rules. Gas, yes - because I know that without a certificate the insurance won't pay up if the kitchen is destroyed by an explosion. But electric?
> 
> Technically my resurrected barn needed an electrician to instal the lighting and couple of 13A sockets, along with 100m of conduit etc. Given that hardly any houses can come up with an installation certificate, and half the electricians I've met working on other peoples properties never get round to issuing the paperwork (prob ably because they aren't actually certified to do it) I don't think the regs really cut it. So I'm afraid I just did it myself....
> 
> When the house was refurbished a decade ago we used a fully registered electrician to do the complete rewire and re-everything - an essential job, that was done superbly - but it took nearly a year to get the paperwork out of his company, and that only by nagging every few months.
> 
> The motive behind the regulations are good, but as always with our government, the training and qualification of technicians, the issuing of certification for them as a profit-centre, and the cutting back on every inspectorate, means that the rules are near-enough pointless.
> 
> Chris Woolf
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


From paul at pgtmedia.co.uk  Mon Dec 12 08:06:30 2022
From: paul at pgtmedia.co.uk (Paul Thackray)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 14:06:30 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Shirley Coward
In-Reply-To: <CAJa+fU7S6tm0T97vEKbHvai1DB4vo_EmcBK-4n7YEBdxAH1rOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJa+fU7S6tm0T97vEKbHvai1DB4vo_EmcBK-4n7YEBdxAH1rOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002901d90e32$ef6a1200$ce3e3600$@pgtmedia.co.uk>

Margot Hayhoe posted on facebook

 

?Sorry to announce that Shirley Coward, Vision Mixer, has died peacefully. She had been in a Care Home for many years. Her funeral will be held in Portsmouth Cathedral on Thursday, 5th January at 2pm. All welcome. Those who knew Shirley will remember her with great affection. RiP?

 

 

Paul Thackray

PGT Media Consulting Ltd.

07802 243979

Mail;  <mailto:paul at pgtmedia.co.uk> paul at pgtmedia.co.uk 

Web;  <http://www.pgtmedia.co.uk/> http://www.pgtmedia.co.uk

Linkedin;    <http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/paul-thackray/19/379/746> http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/paul-thackray/19/379/746

IMDB;  <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1488554/> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1488554/

 

From: Tech1 <tech1-bounces at tech-ops.co.uk> On Behalf Of Georgie and Steve Rogers via Tech1
Sent: 12 December 2022 12:49
To: Tech Ops <Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
Subject: [Tech1] Shirley Coward

 

Just seen on the TVC web site Shirley has died.Has anybody any more information

Steve .

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From alanaudio at me.com  Mon Dec 12 08:35:19 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 14:35:19 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Energy Bill Support Scheme
In-Reply-To: <232bcb77-de41-4c84-9892-4405c276483f@amps.net>
References: <232bcb77-de41-4c84-9892-4405c276483f@amps.net>
Message-ID: <D426D436-DF1E-475A-A270-F007FD82CB6E@me.com>

My grandchildren will be relived to hear that it won?t have to be paid back, but of course they still don?t benefit from it as they are in uni accommodation and not directly the electricity customer.  I?m pretty sure that when first announced it was simply a loan which you would subsequently repay via higher ( make that even higher ) electricity bills.

Alan

> On 12 Dec 2022, at 12:19, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Thanks for the explanation Philip,
> 
> I have received two lots of ?66 and also the ?500.
> 
> It's nice to get something back, for a change!
> 
> Pat
> 
>> On 12/12/2022 09:37, Philip Tyler via Tech1 wrote:
>> I saw Pat mention a ?66 rebate and Mike pointing out this may be the government payment.
>> 
>> So I thought I would forward this for information in case anyone missed it.
>> 
>> Energy Bills Support Scheme 
>> ?400 off energy bills for households in Great Britain from this October. This automatic, non-repayable discount will be applied in six instalments between October 2022 and March 2023 to help households through winter.
>> There is no need to apply for the scheme and you will not be asked for your bank details.
>> The discount will be applied to your monthly household electricity bill for 6 months starting in October 2022. You?ll get:
>> 
>> ?66 in October and November
>> ?67 in December, January, February and March
>> Plus you should receive an extra ?300 on the winter fuel payment, resulting in a ?500 payment this year. DEP WFP is the reference.
>> 
>> Hope that helps?
>> 
>> Philip and Bee
>> 
>> https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/
>> 
>> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 09:05:26 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 15:05:26 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <A65F47C4-2080-4943-B9EE-245EAE7FB4A6@me.com>
References: <c1c42d72-f5f0-0a75-6f4f-ee8a680528f3@chriswoolf.co.uk>
	<A65F47C4-2080-4943-B9EE-245EAE7FB4A6@me.com>
Message-ID: <8837b4a8-6896-f772-1518-6833e48666fe@gmail.com>

I taught myself how to bend and solder copper tube, to do the plumbing 
at home. Once you have those skills, modern plastic plumbing using push 
fit doesn't really appeal. And domestic gas pipework is done in exactly 
that way - soldered copper. Or was.

My gas story involves the smart meter fitter - the first out of two. He 
wasn't happy with existing meter which had two back to back flexible on 
one side. Seems that is not allowed. But how the previous meter 
installer had done it anyway.

My original gas meter had a routine change to an electronic display one 
some years ago. Seems the batteries (non replaceable) in those didn't 
last the expected time, so it was changed back to the older purely 
mechanical sort. I've no idea why they use two flexible hoses.

My other story was getting a qualified technician to fix my boiler. Went 
to the boiler manufacturer's website, and picked a local one from that. 
Thinking that if they recommend one, he would be trained on servicing 
that boiler and obviously have all the necessary qualifications. He told 
me the boiler needed replacing. The fault code said the fan was the 
problem (and it wasn't running normally) - but he'd only replace that at 
my risk, and at a cost of ?1100. A new fan, from the maker, is ?210 
delivered retail. So ?900 to fit it - 15 minutes work - with no warranty.

On 12/12/2022 14:03, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
> There?s no way I would consider doing any DIY regarding gas, even if our house had it and I was allowed to, but I?m quite confident that I can do electrical work to a pretty good standard. I can certainly do electrical work to a better standard than the bloke we first used to maintain our boiler.  He was supposed to be fully qualified, but did some quite worrying things, however we stopped using him some years ago.
>
> When the new ?don?t DIY? electrical regs were introduced around 2000, it happened at about the same time as the wiring colours changed. Red/black became brown/blue. I was told that if a surveyor has any doubts about whether electrical work was done before those regs, they only needed to loosen a socket and see the colour of the wiring.
>
> As it happened, my brother died at about that time and he was an electrician.  When clearing out his place I found a few reels of twin & earth cable of various sizes using the old colour convention, along with a drum of armoured cable bearing a date stamp which pre-dated those regulations. I kept those cables because they might be a useful source of sturdy cable for electronic projects, but when I moved into this house in 2012, they proved to be very useful for upgrading the garage electricity supply and running power to the patio.
>
> When we had our kitchen refitted, we also had a major rewiring job done, involving removing a fuse box and installing a large consumer unit in a more convenient position.  The electrician had to test every socket on site in order to certify it and it all turned out to be fine.  He commented that he was surprised to see such a nicely installed garage supply with metal clad sockets and conduit everywhere. Houses of that age generally just had garages with exposed cables stapled to the wall. I told him that I reckon it?s a retrofit and not original. He agreed, but added it was definitely done about twenty five years ago, with the exception of the LED lighting in the roof. He pointed to the breaker box which was quite old and a little rusty and said that you can see all the wiring is original.
>
> I thought he might condemn my outdoor power to the patio, but again he was happy with it.  It was tested and proved to be safe.  I re-used some rather nice MK waterproof switches and mains sockets which I originally got for supplying power to my Ursta cart  in the 1990s, so they were from before the change in regs, as was the date on the armoured cable. Everything is fine and I now have an approval certificate for when I sell the place.
>
> When we were house hunting, some of the houses we looked at were obviously owned by DIY enthusiasts.  I always looked very carefully to see how well they did jobs and also made sure to check out the garage or shed to see whether they had appropriate tools. In most cases I decided against buying that house specifically because of worries about what might subsequently come to light.  The house I did buy was owned by a couple who didn?t do DIY. In some ways, it would have been better if they had because it needed a bit of TLC, but the bottom line is that we?ve been here ten years and there have been very few issues regarding botched work. The biggest horrors concerned electrical work on the old kitchen we ripped out, which was almost certainly installed by a ?professional?.  For instance, the isolator switch for the cooker hood was just a fused switch outlet with no back box, just wrapped up in pvc tape and stuffed inside the back of the housing. I had looked for it many times and finally discovered it when I took it apart.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>> On 12 Dec 2022, at 11:02, Chris Woolf via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>> On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
>>> .....So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
>>
>> I have to admit to disobeying those sort of rules. Gas, yes - because I know that without a certificate the insurance won't pay up if the kitchen is destroyed by an explosion. But electric?
>>
>> Technically my resurrected barn needed an electrician to instal the lighting and couple of 13A sockets, along with 100m of conduit etc. Given that hardly any houses can come up with an installation certificate, and half the electricians I've met working on other peoples properties never get round to issuing the paperwork (prob ably because they aren't actually certified to do it) I don't think the regs really cut it. So I'm afraid I just did it myself....
>>
>> When the house was refurbished a decade ago we used a fully registered electrician to do the complete rewire and re-everything - an essential job, that was done superbly - but it took nearly a year to get the paperwork out of his company, and that only by nagging every few months.
>>
>> The motive behind the regulations are good, but as always with our government, the training and qualification of technicians, the issuing of certification for them as a profit-centre, and the cutting back on every inspectorate, means that the rules are near-enough pointless.
>>
>> Chris Woolf
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

From robert.miles at soundsuper.co.uk  Mon Dec 12 09:42:03 2022
From: robert.miles at soundsuper.co.uk (Robert Miles)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 15:42:03 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Box of Delights
Message-ID: <000201d90e40$48896540$d99c2fc0$@soundsuper.co.uk>

This article might bring back some memories -
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/dec/12/how-we-made-christmas-classi
c-the-box-of-delights-the-canal-death-scene-may-have-been-fuelled-by-vodka

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From alanaudio at me.com  Mon Dec 12 09:43:49 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 15:43:49 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <8837b4a8-6896-f772-1518-6833e48666fe@gmail.com>
References: <8837b4a8-6896-f772-1518-6833e48666fe@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C687241E-2B04-48AB-B1A5-F081EF9C4E3D@me.com>

There seems to be a lot of cowboy operators doing boiler maintenance.  In 2012, when we moved in, we used the guy who the previous owners had used but I could see that when there was a fault, he would randomly change things, but not solve the underlying problem.  A new boiler was the recommended solution ? ?5k plus VAT.

I then tried the company which must have originally fitted it as their name was on the paperwork.  They were the biggest heating contractors in town and always sent engineers two at a time and charged accordingly, but they were no better and a second visit to fit parts ordered was always done by a different pair of engineers who had to start by familiarising themselves with the setup.  A new boiler was recommended ? ?7k A new oil tank would also be a good idea and we were warned that it would be very pricey due to its location. I wasn?t convinced. 

A chap was recommended by a neighbour.  He only works on oil fired boilers and now services almost everybody?s boiler in the village. What a difference!  There were three ongoing issues which had not been fixed by the others, despite paying loads of money for bits to be replaced.  The new chap immediately diagnosed one elusive fault and fixed it instantly.  Two other faults were identified and his explanations were logical and completely explained the problem. He ordered the bits, came back to fit them and we were relieved of ?400. It worked flawlessly for a number of years after that, but started losing pressure in September  ( combi boiler ). I could see that it was leaking water which plainer the pressure loss.  He pointed out that the heat exchanger was corroded and had multiple pin prick holes.  He could change it, but then pointed out several other signs of corrosion elsewhere.  It turned out that what we thought was a ten year old boiler had actually been installed twenty years ago - verified by the neighbour who remembers moving in on the day the boiler men were blocking her drive.

New boiler was recommended and for once I trusted that guy?s recommendation. His quote was ?4,400 including fitting and VAT. When I asked if the tank was OK, he laughed.  It?s a modern plastic bunded tank, nice and clean inside. Why on earth would you want to change it?  

I checked online and a discount supplier offered that same boiler for ?3,750, which made his price seem entirely reasonable. Needless to say I accepted his offer, he did a very neat installation and it has worked perfectly ever since.

Alan



> On 12 Dec 2022, at 15:05, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> My other story was getting a qualified technician to fix my boiler. Went to the boiler manufacturer's website, and picked a local one from that. Thinking that if they recommend one, he would be trained on servicing that boiler and obviously have all the necessary qualifications. He told me the boiler needed replacing. The fault code said the fan was the problem (and it wasn't running normally) - but he'd only replace that at my risk, and at a cost of ?1100. A new fan, from the maker, is ?210 delivered retail. So ?900 to fit it - 15 minutes work - with no warranty.
> 


From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Mon Dec 12 09:59:35 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 15:59:35 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <8837b4a8-6896-f772-1518-6833e48666fe@gmail.com>
References: <c1c42d72-f5f0-0a75-6f4f-ee8a680528f3@chriswoolf.co.uk>
	<A65F47C4-2080-4943-B9EE-245EAE7FB4A6@me.com>
	<8837b4a8-6896-f772-1518-6833e48666fe@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95292f59-b08c-4500-8cd6-de4aa8afbe5d@chriswoolf.co.uk>


On 12/12/2022 15:05, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
> ....The fault code said the fan was the problem (and it wasn't running 
> normally) - but he'd only replace that at my risk, and at a cost of 
> ?1100. A new fan, from the maker, is ?210 delivered retail. So ?900 to 
> fit it - 15 minutes work - with no warranty.
>>
>>
Time and again one meets these ridiculous impasses - the "right" thing 
is so hopelessly expensive or impractical that you have to resort to DIY.

I have a water supply pressure vessel that has a minute air leak 
internally. I've lived with it for ages - just pump it up with a 
compressor every now and again. Earlier this year I decided to get a 
replacement bladder for it and use a local water supply company to fit 
it - they are usually very helpful.

Sorry mate - the boss won't let us do that because we've had trouble 
before and can't guarantee the work. The suggestion was a new pressure 
vessel, but mine is a largish one that fits in a slightly awkward space 
- the supply people don't normally deal with the makers, so if they 
bought one in for me it would cost way over the odds. The fitter guy is 
very helpful, so aside from powerfully suggesting I didn't ask them to 
do the job, he gave me detailed instructions of how to do it myself.

I'm not too against that, except that it means losing the main water 
supply for several hours while I do it (and hope I get it right), and 
I'd rather have some assistance working with a heavy pressure vessel. 
But hey ho, getting it done the decreed way is likely to cost me well 
over a grand more than replacing the bladder myself, so DIY reigns.

I can see how easily householders are forced/conned into paying 
astronomic fees for doing something that should be simple and affordable.

Chris Woolf




From alanaudio at me.com  Mon Dec 12 10:08:13 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 16:08:13 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Box of Delights
In-Reply-To: <000201d90e40$48896540$d99c2fc0$@soundsuper.co.uk>
References: <000201d90e40$48896540$d99c2fc0$@soundsuper.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6BFE84D9-E2CC-4E58-95BF-03AE7949A525@me.com>

It turned out surprisingly well, considering that they used a couple of pretty duff sound supervisors to do the location and studio work and then let them both loose in Sypher afterwards  :-)

Alan


> On 12 Dec 2022, at 15:42, Robert Miles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> This article might bring back some memories - https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/dec/12/how-we-made-christmas-classic-the-box-of-delights-the-canal-death-scene-may-have-been-fuelled-by-vodka
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From mibridge at mac.com  Mon Dec 12 10:31:52 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 16:31:52 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Box of Delights
In-Reply-To: <6BFE84D9-E2CC-4E58-95BF-03AE7949A525@me.com>
References: <000201d90e40$48896540$d99c2fc0$@soundsuper.co.uk>
	<6BFE84D9-E2CC-4E58-95BF-03AE7949A525@me.com>
Message-ID: <37EFE05E-9B8E-43D4-96CA-5FF427C55763@mac.com>

Barry will resemble that remark! (To quote one go his expressions).

Mike G


> On 12 Dec 2022, at 16:08, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> It turned out surprisingly well, considering that they used a couple of pretty duff sound supervisors to do the location and studio work and then let them both loose in Sypher afterwards  :-)
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
>> On 12 Dec 2022, at 15:42, Robert Miles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> This article might bring back some memories - https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/dec/12/how-we-made-christmas-classic-the-box-of-delights-the-canal-death-scene-may-have-been-fuelled-by-vodka
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk <mailto:Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk <http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk>
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From mibridge at mac.com  Mon Dec 12 11:26:07 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:26:07 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <8837b4a8-6896-f772-1518-6833e48666fe@gmail.com>
References: <c1c42d72-f5f0-0a75-6f4f-ee8a680528f3@chriswoolf.co.uk>
	<A65F47C4-2080-4943-B9EE-245EAE7FB4A6@me.com>
	<8837b4a8-6896-f772-1518-6833e48666fe@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B995B747-436D-481C-94AF-7CB7C8452FC7@mac.com>

After a totally botched central heating installation in 1968, I decreed that I would never have another ?professional? in the house. Anything that could go wrong did go wrong, including telling the electrician that he had the wrong model of electrical valves. When they were swapped for the right ones, I then had to draw him a circuit diagram of how to connect them! After that, I always did all my own rewiring and plumbing, including two full central heating systems, boilers and all.

But, when we moved here eleven years ago, I bowed to the inevitable. I deemed all the old wiring still perfectly serviceable, but changed all the sockets and switches, in conjunction with a local electrician, now quite a friend, because we were completely rewiring the kitchen during refurbishment. The electrician was quite happy for me to do all the physical work of chasing out and running all the new cables, upstairs and down (and in my lady?s chamber) including a tortuous run of hefty cable out to the garage. The existing installation seemed not to have been touched since it was installed a fair few years ago and we had the certificate from a well-known local company. As the old lady had lived with only her mother since 1962, I doubt that anyone had done anything since then that would entail lifting floorboards and the fitted carpets seemed to date from that sort of time, but in the back bedroom I found a screw going right through the ring main cable ~ it had pierced the neutral insulation, and seemed to be touching the earth wire, but that had obviously not shown up when the system was tested.

I had the same sort of arrangement with the plumber, also now quite a friend, who installed a new boiler and hot water system, but was quite happy for me to install all the radiators and run the pipework.. He then came back to commission the system and flush it out thoroughly. He said he was quite relieved not to have to fit the central heating, because he hated having to lift floorboards more or less at the same time in all the rooms of an occupied property, because of the disruption it caused and the difficulty of working round the householders and their furniture, whereas I could do it just one room at a time, taking rather longer overall, but to everybody?s advantage. I must say, though, that although like Dave I have done my share of successful copper plumbing, I thoroughly appreciated the plastic pipe, which I managed to install with no joints under any of the bedroom floors ~ that is until I forgot the layout in one room which I had fitted from below whilst the ceiling was down ~ so whilst cutting a floorboard to run a telephone cable into the upstairs office, I went straight through the plastic pipe without realising until I heard the sound of running water where there shouldn?t have been running water! Luckily my wife was at home and whilst I kept a thumb over each cut end, she found some pieces of dowel to block the pipes until I could drain the system.

Mike G

> On 12 Dec 2022, at 15:05, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I taught myself how to bend and solder copper tube, to do the plumbing at home. Once you have those skills, modern plastic plumbing using push fit doesn't really appeal. And domestic gas pipework is done in exactly that way - soldered copper. Or was.
> 
> My gas story involves the smart meter fitter - the first out of two. He wasn't happy with existing meter which had two back to back flexible on one side. Seems that is not allowed. But how the previous meter installer had done it anyway.
> 
> My original gas meter had a routine change to an electronic display one some years ago. Seems the batteries (non replaceable) in those didn't last the expected time, so it was changed back to the older purely mechanical sort. I've no idea why they use two flexible hoses.
> 
> My other story was getting a qualified technician to fix my boiler. Went to the boiler manufacturer's website, and picked a local one from that. Thinking that if they recommend one, he would be trained on servicing that boiler and obviously have all the necessary qualifications. He told me the boiler needed replacing. The fault code said the fan was the problem (and it wasn't running normally) - but he'd only replace that at my risk, and at a cost of ?1100. A new fan, from the maker, is ?210 delivered retail. So ?900 to fit it - 15 minutes work - with no warranty.
> 
> On 12/12/2022 14:03, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
>> There?s no way I would consider doing any DIY regarding gas, even if our house had it and I was allowed to, but I?m quite confident that I can do electrical work to a pretty good standard. I can certainly do electrical work to a better standard than the bloke we first used to maintain our boiler.  He was supposed to be fully qualified, but did some quite worrying things, however we stopped using him some years ago.
>> 
>> When the new ?don?t DIY? electrical regs were introduced around 2000, it happened at about the same time as the wiring colours changed. Red/black became brown/blue. I was told that if a surveyor has any doubts about whether electrical work was done before those regs, they only needed to loosen a socket and see the colour of the wiring.
>> 
>> As it happened, my brother died at about that time and he was an electrician.  When clearing out his place I found a few reels of twin & earth cable of various sizes using the old colour convention, along with a drum of armoured cable bearing a date stamp which pre-dated those regulations. I kept those cables because they might be a useful source of sturdy cable for electronic projects, but when I moved into this house in 2012, they proved to be very useful for upgrading the garage electricity supply and running power to the patio.
>> 
>> When we had our kitchen refitted, we also had a major rewiring job done, involving removing a fuse box and installing a large consumer unit in a more convenient position.  The electrician had to test every socket on site in order to certify it and it all turned out to be fine.  He commented that he was surprised to see such a nicely installed garage supply with metal clad sockets and conduit everywhere. Houses of that age generally just had garages with exposed cables stapled to the wall. I told him that I reckon it?s a retrofit and not original. He agreed, but added it was definitely done about twenty five years ago, with the exception of the LED lighting in the roof. He pointed to the breaker box which was quite old and a little rusty and said that you can see all the wiring is original.
>> 
>> I thought he might condemn my outdoor power to the patio, but again he was happy with it.  It was tested and proved to be safe.  I re-used some rather nice MK waterproof switches and mains sockets which I originally got for supplying power to my Ursta cart  in the 1990s, so they were from before the change in regs, as was the date on the armoured cable. Everything is fine and I now have an approval certificate for when I sell the place.
>> 
>> When we were house hunting, some of the houses we looked at were obviously owned by DIY enthusiasts.  I always looked very carefully to see how well they did jobs and also made sure to check out the garage or shed to see whether they had appropriate tools. In most cases I decided against buying that house specifically because of worries about what might subsequently come to light.  The house I did buy was owned by a couple who didn?t do DIY. In some ways, it would have been better if they had because it needed a bit of TLC, but the bottom line is that we?ve been here ten years and there have been very few issues regarding botched work. The biggest horrors concerned electrical work on the old kitchen we ripped out, which was almost certainly installed by a ?professional?.  For instance, the isolator switch for the cooker hood was just a fused switch outlet with no back box, just wrapped up in pvc tape and stuffed inside the back of the housing. I had looked for it many times and finally discovered it when I took it apart.
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 12 Dec 2022, at 11:02, Chris Woolf via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>>> On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
>>>> .....So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
>>> 
>>> I have to admit to disobeying those sort of rules. Gas, yes - because I know that without a certificate the insurance won't pay up if the kitchen is destroyed by an explosion. But electric?
>>> 
>>> Technically my resurrected barn needed an electrician to instal the lighting and couple of 13A sockets, along with 100m of conduit etc. Given that hardly any houses can come up with an installation certificate, and half the electricians I've met working on other peoples properties never get round to issuing the paperwork (prob ably because they aren't actually certified to do it) I don't think the regs really cut it. So I'm afraid I just did it myself....
>>> 
>>> When the house was refurbished a decade ago we used a fully registered electrician to do the complete rewire and re-everything - an essential job, that was done superbly - but it took nearly a year to get the paperwork out of his company, and that only by nagging every few months.
>>> 
>>> The motive behind the regulations are good, but as always with our government, the training and qualification of technicians, the issuing of certification for them as a profit-centre, and the cutting back on every inspectorate, means that the rules are near-enough pointless.
>>> 
>>> Chris Woolf
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From alanaudio at me.com  Tue Dec 13 03:00:03 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 09:00:03 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Not necessarily 30 years in the future any more
Message-ID: <920718FD-9B55-402B-960B-A635949D94BE@me.com>

It?s been a long-standing joke that for the last fifty years, nuclear fusion has always been thirty years away. 
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/12/breakthrough-in-nuclear-fusion-could-mean-near-limitless-energy

There have been a lot of significant advances in recent years, but this report is of a significant milestone because for the first time, an experiment appears to have released more energy that was put into it.

There?s still a long way to go.  The amount of energy gained was quite small and only for a moment. However the importance of it is that the concept has been shown to work and that other teams are also making tremendous progress on many fronts. There is an unusual amount of international co-operation too.

Nuclear fusion on a suitable scale for power generation might now be achievable within that thirty year time scale, but I?d still be pleasantly surprised if it becomes viable within 15-20 years, despite the progress being made.

For those who don?t know what the goal is. In simple terms, nuclear fusion is recreating the same physics which power the sun. Cheaply generating huge amounts of energy without producing harmful waste products. 

Alan

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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Tue Dec 13 03:45:04 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 09:45:04 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] DWP generosity
In-Reply-To: <A65F47C4-2080-4943-B9EE-245EAE7FB4A6@me.com>
References: <c1c42d72-f5f0-0a75-6f4f-ee8a680528f3@chriswoolf.co.uk>
	<A65F47C4-2080-4943-B9EE-245EAE7FB4A6@me.com>
Message-ID: <3ea6c01a-2493-b6fe-d256-07f3a02b434e@amps.net>

The only electrical work that I have done was to fit an illuminated 
bathroom cabinet, wiring it in to the bathroom light switch - all the 
new cabling was concealed behind a false wall which was hiding the plumbing.
However, concerning botched installations by 'professionals' my flat in 
a block of 8 had a chased-in TV co-ax feed from a communal distribution 
amp in a loft. I was getting a poor picture, so decided to replace the 
downlead.

Trying to yank it out of the plastic conduit from my loft was fruitless 
- something was holding it (yes, I _had_ disconnected it from the 
sitting room wall point!). Using a fine probe, actually the bare solid 
earth conductor
from twin and earth cable, I found where an obstruction was. Back in the 
sitting room, measuring down with the marked probe, then chipping away 
the plaster, revealed that the builders apprentice (probably)
had been told to fix the conduit containing the ready threaded co-ax, 
before plastering. Instead of anchoring it with a nail each side, he had 
hammered a nail right through the middle, neatly shortcircuiting the signal!
I was quite proud of my replastering - now that is a specialised craft!

Pat

On 12/12/2022 14:03, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
> There?s no way I would consider doing any DIY regarding gas, even if our house had it and I was allowed to, but I?m quite confident that I can do electrical work to a pretty good standard. I can certainly do electrical work to a better standard than the bloke we first used to maintain our boiler.  He was supposed to be fully qualified, but did some quite worrying things, however we stopped using him some years ago.
>
> When the new ?don?t DIY? electrical regs were introduced around 2000, it happened at about the same time as the wiring colours changed. Red/black became brown/blue. I was told that if a surveyor has any doubts about whether electrical work was done before those regs, they only needed to loosen a socket and see the colour of the wiring.
>
> As it happened, my brother died at about that time and he was an electrician.  When clearing out his place I found a few reels of twin & earth cable of various sizes using the old colour convention, along with a drum of armoured cable bearing a date stamp which pre-dated those regulations. I kept those cables because they might be a useful source of sturdy cable for electronic projects, but when I moved into this house in 2012, they proved to be very useful for upgrading the garage electricity supply and running power to the patio.
>
> When we had our kitchen refitted, we also had a major rewiring job done, involving removing a fuse box and installing a large consumer unit in a more convenient position.  The electrician had to test every socket on site in order to certify it and it all turned out to be fine.  He commented that he was surprised to see such a nicely installed garage supply with metal clad sockets and conduit everywhere. Houses of that age generally just had garages with exposed cables stapled to the wall. I told him that I reckon it?s a retrofit and not original. He agreed, but added it was definitely done about twenty five years ago, with the exception of the LED lighting in the roof. He pointed to the breaker box which was quite old and a little rusty and said that you can see all the wiring is original.
>
> I thought he might condemn my outdoor power to the patio, but again he was happy with it.  It was tested and proved to be safe.  I re-used some rather nice MK waterproof switches and mains sockets which I originally got for supplying power to my Ursta cart  in the 1990s, so they were from before the change in regs, as was the date on the armoured cable. Everything is fine and I now have an approval certificate for when I sell the place.
>
> When we were house hunting, some of the houses we looked at were obviously owned by DIY enthusiasts.  I always looked very carefully to see how well they did jobs and also made sure to check out the garage or shed to see whether they had appropriate tools. In most cases I decided against buying that house specifically because of worries about what might subsequently come to light.  The house I did buy was owned by a couple who didn?t do DIY. In some ways, it would have been better if they had because it needed a bit of TLC, but the bottom line is that we?ve been here ten years and there have been very few issues regarding botched work. The biggest horrors concerned electrical work on the old kitchen we ripped out, which was almost certainly installed by a ?professional?.  For instance, the isolator switch for the cooker hood was just a fused switch outlet with no back box, just wrapped up in pvc tape and stuffed inside the back of the housing. I had looked for it many times and finally discovered it when I took it apart.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>> On 12 Dec 2022, at 11:02, Chris Woolf via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>> On 11/12/2022 17:39, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
>>> .....So, bought a new better replacement, and still waiting for that to be installed (as per electrical regs, I easily could, but can?t do it).
>>
>> I have to admit to disobeying those sort of rules. Gas, yes - because I know that without a certificate the insurance won't pay up if the kitchen is destroyed by an explosion. But electric?
>>
>> Technically my resurrected barn needed an electrician to instal the lighting and couple of 13A sockets, along with 100m of conduit etc. Given that hardly any houses can come up with an installation certificate, and half the electricians I've met working on other peoples properties never get round to issuing the paperwork (prob ably because they aren't actually certified to do it) I don't think the regs really cut it. So I'm afraid I just did it myself....
>>
>> When the house was refurbished a decade ago we used a fully registered electrician to do the complete rewire and re-everything - an essential job, that was done superbly - but it took nearly a year to get the paperwork out of his company, and that only by nagging every few months.
>>
>> The motive behind the regulations are good, but as always with our government, the training and qualification of technicians, the issuing of certification for them as a profit-centre, and the cutting back on every inspectorate, means that the rules are near-enough pointless.
>>
>> Chris Woolf
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 04:25:59 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 10:25:59 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Not necessarily 30 years in the future any more
In-Reply-To: <920718FD-9B55-402B-960B-A635949D94BE@me.com>
References: <920718FD-9B55-402B-960B-A635949D94BE@me.com>
Message-ID: <a0a5649e-f2e3-c260-21d7-13846a1be60a@gmail.com>

Quite a decent piece about it on NewsNight yesterday. But their expert 
was very non committal about just when it would be practical.

As each day goes by, I see more and more why so many young are 
protesting. About 'green' things. As most of us oldies have our heads in 
the sand.

I decided to run my CH as I'd normally do in better times during this 
cold snap. Costs about ?25 a day. And used the same number of kwh of 
energy a day as I use in a month with electricity. And I don't have an 
electric car.

So my back of a fag packet says switching to electricity only would need 
the national supply of that to increase 30 fold.

Of course a heat pump would be more efficient than a conventional 
heating system. And better insulation to this old house too. But 
changing to an electric car would add even more to the overall electric use.

Deniers seem to assume (ignoring climate change) that we will continue 
to find more new supplies of gas for ever - despite the evidence that 
out own supply in the North Sea didn't last long.

It won't, of course be my problem. But might well be for our grandchildren.

The short-termism of most governments round the world is frightening.

On 13/12/2022 09:00, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
> It?s been a long-standing joke that for the last fifty years, nuclear 
> fusion has always been thirty years away.
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/12/breakthrough-in-nuclear-fusion-could-mean-near-limitless-energy
>
> There have been a lot of significant advances in recent years, but 
> this report is of a significant milestone because for the first time, 
> an experiment appears to have released more energy that was put into it.
>
> There?s still a long way to go. ?The amount of energy gained was quite 
> small and only for a moment. However the importance of it is that the 
> concept has been shown to work and that other teams are also making 
> tremendous progress on many fronts. There is an unusual amount of 
> international co-operation too.
>
> Nuclear fusion on a suitable scale for power generation might now be 
> achievable within that thirty year time scale, but I?d still be 
> pleasantly surprised if it becomes viable within 15-20 years, despite 
> the progress being made.
>
> For those who don?t know what the goal is. In simple terms, nuclear 
> fusion is recreating the same physics which power the sun. Cheaply 
> generating huge amounts of energy without producing harmful waste 
> products.
>
> Alan
>
>


From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 06:26:21 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 12:26:21 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Not necessarily 30 years in the future any more
In-Reply-To: <a0a5649e-f2e3-c260-21d7-13846a1be60a@gmail.com>
References: <920718FD-9B55-402B-960B-A635949D94BE@me.com>
	<a0a5649e-f2e3-c260-21d7-13846a1be60a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fa67b9a0-3a36-2edd-9a70-786a5938d8b3@chriswoolf.co.uk>

On 13/12/2022 10:25, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
>
>
> Deniers seem to assume (ignoring climate change) that we will continue 
> to find more new supplies of gas for ever - despite the evidence that 
> out own supply in the North Sea didn't last long.
>
> It won't, of course be my problem. But might well be for our 
> grandchildren.
>
> The short-termism of most governments round the world is frightening.
>
>
Agreed - no government wants to think beyond the next election at the 
longest, and while that didn't matter when resources were still only 
being eroded slowly, it matters a great deal now.

It infuriates me that we could have had a revival of industry building 
decent eco houses to replace our genteel but out-dated stuff - and 
instead we put up even worse crap that won't even last a full mortgage 
period. We know perfectly well what the right ways of heating properties 
are - minimally, too, if we build the houses right - but would rather 
try to adapt the terrible systems we have because its cheapest to do 
that. No, hydrogen replacement of gas isn't a goer, but it doesn't stop 
the government crossing its fingers and hoping, because it doesn't 
frighten the horses so badly.

We have examples in other countries of public transport systems that are 
integrated and run efficiently to move the populace around effectively, 
but we are so besotted with the profit-centre system here that we have 
forgotten the purpose of public transport. Likewise we have forgotten 
that the purpose of a health service is keep people healthy, and allow 
them to work longer, and need less care.

Oh dear....

Chris Woolf




From barrybonner119 at btinternet.com  Tue Dec 13 09:11:20 2022
From: barrybonner119 at btinternet.com (Barry Bonner)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:11:20 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Box of Delights
In-Reply-To: <37EFE05E-9B8E-43D4-96CA-5FF427C55763@mac.com>
References: <000201d90e40$48896540$d99c2fc0$@soundsuper.co.uk>
	<6BFE84D9-E2CC-4E58-95BF-03AE7949A525@me.com>
	<37EFE05E-9B8E-43D4-96CA-5FF427C55763@mac.com>
Message-ID: <262D1C17-C68C-48A4-83AE-FEB012ED6D3C@btinternet.com>

I?m not sure who was ?pretty? or who was ?duff? though!
Barry.



On 12 Dec 2022, at 16:31, Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

> Barry will resemble that remark! (To quote one go his expressions).
> 
> Mike G
> 
> 
>> On 12 Dec 2022, at 16:08, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> It turned out surprisingly well, considering that they used a couple of pretty duff sound supervisors to do the location and studio work and then let them both loose in Sypher afterwards  :-)
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>>> On 12 Dec 2022, at 15:42, Robert Miles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> This article might bring back some memories - https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/dec/12/how-we-made-christmas-classic-the-box-of-delights-the-canal-death-scene-may-have-been-fuelled-by-vodka
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 09:25:00 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:25:00 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Box of Delights
In-Reply-To: <262D1C17-C68C-48A4-83AE-FEB012ED6D3C@btinternet.com>
References: <000201d90e40$48896540$d99c2fc0$@soundsuper.co.uk>
	<6BFE84D9-E2CC-4E58-95BF-03AE7949A525@me.com>
	<37EFE05E-9B8E-43D4-96CA-5FF427C55763@mac.com>
	<262D1C17-C68C-48A4-83AE-FEB012ED6D3C@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <bc29c414-b818-51eb-c7ce-d18d048afb9a@gmail.com>

There is Arthur Duff who was HOD sound at Thames TV. Not sure I know a 
Pretty sound man, though?

On 13/12/2022 15:11, Barry Bonner via Tech1 wrote:
> I?m not sure who was ?pretty? or who was ?duff? though!
> Barry.
>
>
>
> On 12 Dec 2022, at 16:31, Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> 
> wrote:
>
>> Barry will resemble that?remark! (To quote one go his expressions).
>>
>> Mike G
>>
>>
>>> On 12 Dec 2022, at 16:08, Alan Taylor via Tech1 
>>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> It turned out surprisingly well, considering that they used a couple 
>>> of pretty duff sound supervisors to do the location and studio work 
>>> and then let them both loose in Sypher afterwards ?:-)
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 12 Dec 2022, at 15:42, Robert Miles via Tech1 
>>>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>> This article might bring back some memories - 
>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/dec/12/how-we-made-christmas-classic-the-box-of-delights-the-canal-death-scene-may-have-been-fuelled-by-vodka
>>>> --
>>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>> --
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
>
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From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Tue Dec 13 10:12:54 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:12:54 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Not necessarily 30 years in the future any more
In-Reply-To: <a0a5649e-f2e3-c260-21d7-13846a1be60a@gmail.com>
References: <920718FD-9B55-402B-960B-A635949D94BE@me.com>
	<a0a5649e-f2e3-c260-21d7-13846a1be60a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E77144F9-3BB2-418D-8227-DF1F2682F37D@icloud.com>

And this afternoon, BBC has finally found the story and claims it is ?Breaking News?! Don?t they teach journos the bsics anymore, something announced two days ago is not breaking news.

> On 13 Dec 2022, at 10:25, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Quite a decent piece about it on NewsNight yesterday. But their expert was very non committal about just when it would be practical.
> 
> As each day goes by, I see more and more why so many young are protesting. About 'green' things. As most of us oldies have our heads in the sand.
> 
> I decided to run my CH as I'd normally do in better times during this cold snap. Costs about ?25 a day. And used the same number of kwh of energy a day as I use in a month with electricity. And I don't have an electric car.
> 
> So my back of a fag packet says switching to electricity only would need the national supply of that to increase 30 fold.
> 
> Of course a heat pump would be more efficient than a conventional heating system. And better insulation to this old house too. But changing to an electric car would add even more to the overall electric use.
> 
> Deniers seem to assume (ignoring climate change) that we will continue to find more new supplies of gas for ever - despite the evidence that out own supply in the North Sea didn't last long.
> 
> It won't, of course be my problem. But might well be for our grandchildren.
> 
> The short-termism of most governments round the world is frightening.
> 
> On 13/12/2022 09:00, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
>> It?s been a long-standing joke that for the last fifty years, nuclear fusion has always been thirty years away.
>> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/12/breakthrough-in-nuclear-fusion-could-mean-near-limitless-energy
>> 
>> There have been a lot of significant advances in recent years, but this report is of a significant milestone because for the first time, an experiment appears to have released more energy that was put into it.
>> 
>> There?s still a long way to go.  The amount of energy gained was quite small and only for a moment. However the importance of it is that the concept has been shown to work and that other teams are also making tremendous progress on many fronts. There is an unusual amount of international co-operation too.
>> 
>> Nuclear fusion on a suitable scale for power generation might now be achievable within that thirty year time scale, but I?d still be pleasantly surprised if it becomes viable within 15-20 years, despite the progress being made.
>> 
>> For those who don?t know what the goal is. In simple terms, nuclear fusion is recreating the same physics which power the sun. Cheaply generating huge amounts of energy without producing harmful waste products.
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From waresound at msn.com  Tue Dec 13 12:32:55 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 18:32:55 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Not necessarily 30 years in the future any more
In-Reply-To: <920718FD-9B55-402B-960B-A635949D94BE@me.com>
References: <920718FD-9B55-402B-960B-A635949D94BE@me.com>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB160452AE97E847BF65C13935A7E39@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hadron Collider, CERN, Switzerland. The most awesome piece of International scientific research I?ve ever seen. This pic from August 2008 is actually one of the smaller experiments. A few days later the whole ring was sealed and cooled down to within 0.5 degree of zero degrees Absolute, and consumed the entire output of a nearby power station. Second pic: part of the accelerator ring, deep down underground in solid rock. Not sure if I?m supposed to show these pix, but hey?.
[image0.jpeg][image1.jpeg]
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 13 Dec 2022, at 09:00, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

? It?s been a long-standing joke that for the last fifty years, nuclear fusion has always been thirty years away.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/12/breakthrough-in-nuclear-fusion-could-mean-near-limitless-energy

There have been a lot of significant advances in recent years, but this report is of a significant milestone because for the first time, an experiment appears to have released more energy that was put into it.

There?s still a long way to go.  The amount of energy gained was quite small and only for a moment. However the importance of it is that the concept has been shown to work and that other teams are also making tremendous progress on many fronts. There is an unusual amount of international co-operation too.

Nuclear fusion on a suitable scale for power generation might now be achievable within that thirty year time scale, but I?d still be pleasantly surprised if it becomes viable within 15-20 years, despite the progress being made.

For those who don?t know what the goal is. In simple terms, nuclear fusion is recreating the same physics which power the sun. Cheaply generating huge amounts of energy without producing harmful waste products.

Alan

--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From waresound at msn.com  Tue Dec 13 13:32:30 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 19:32:30 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Fwd:  Not necessarily 30 years in the future any more
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB160452AE97E847BF65C13935A7E39@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <920718FD-9B55-402B-960B-A635949D94BE@me.com>
	<AM9P191MB160452AE97E847BF65C13935A7E39@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB160477EBBAB21A234D28BCCBA7E39@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Re-sent with smaller jpg files.
Hadron Collider, CERN, Switzerland. The most awesome piece of International scientific research I?ve ever seen. This pic from August 2008 is actually one of the smaller experiments. A few days later the whole ring was sealed and cooled down to within 0.5 degree of zero degrees Absolute, and consumed the entire output of a nearby power station. Second pic: part of the accelerator ring, deep down underground in solid rock. Not sure if I?m supposed to show these pix, but hey?.

[image0.jpeg][image1.jpeg]
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad


On 13 Dec 2022, at 09:00, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

? It?s been a long-standing joke that for the last fifty years, nuclear fusion has always been thirty years away.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/12/breakthrough-in-nuclear-fusion-could-mean-near-limitless-energy

There have been a lot of significant advances in recent years, but this report is of a significant milestone because for the first time, an experiment appears to have released more energy that was put into it.

There?s still a long way to go.  The amount of energy gained was quite small and only for a moment. However the importance of it is that the concept has been shown to work and that other teams are also making tremendous progress on many fronts. There is an unusual amount of international co-operation too.

Nuclear fusion on a suitable scale for power generation might now be achievable within that thirty year time scale, but I?d still be pleasantly surprised if it becomes viable within 15-20 years, despite the progress being made.

For those who don?t know what the goal is. In simple terms, nuclear fusion is recreating the same physics which power the sun. Cheaply generating huge amounts of energy without producing harmful waste products.

Alan

--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From tonynuttall at me.com  Wed Dec 14 04:49:38 2022
From: tonynuttall at me.com (William Nuttall)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 10:49:38 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?An_Essential_bit_of_Kit_for_Any_serious_Sound_?=
 =?utf-8?q?or_Video_Operation?=
Message-ID: <5763deca-8b26-4880-aad8-e47715720e7a@me.com>

Some time four DFA's is a little limiting. I would suggest atleast six especially with "live" operations.Tony Nuttall, In the Wilds Of Cumbria.Thank you to Face Book ?"I Take Pictures Of TV Studios" Group.
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From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Wed Dec 14 04:52:22 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 10:52:22 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Essential bit of Kit for Any serious Sound or Video
 Operation
In-Reply-To: <5763deca-8b26-4880-aad8-e47715720e7a@me.com>
References: <5763deca-8b26-4880-aad8-e47715720e7a@me.com>
Message-ID: <5BE10FA7-A6FB-41F1-8DA9-01934DEA203E@icloud.com>

I assume that the following refers:

(Does F*** All) A fader or knob provided for the exclusive use of the producer (or other person insistent on taking an unwanted active role at the console) which does nothing at all, other than keep said person busy!

> On 14 Dec 2022, at 10:49, William Nuttall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Some time four DFA's is a little limiting. I would suggest at
> least six especially with "live" operations.
> Tony Nuttall, In the Wilds Of Cumbria.<Screenshot 2022-12-13 at 11.10.47.png>
> Thank you to Face Book  "I Take Pictures Of TV Studios" Group.
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From pat.heigham at amps.net  Wed Dec 14 07:14:03 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:14:03 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Essential bit of Kit for Any serious Sound or Video
 Operation
In-Reply-To: <5BE10FA7-A6FB-41F1-8DA9-01934DEA203E@icloud.com>
References: <5763deca-8b26-4880-aad8-e47715720e7a@me.com>
	<5BE10FA7-A6FB-41F1-8DA9-01934DEA203E@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <293f812f-4a70-9e20-1fa0-e242ac8bd5fa@amps.net>

But where's the button marked 'P' ?

On 14/12/2022 10:52, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote:
> I assume that the following refers:
>
> (Does F*** All) A fader or knob provided for the exclusive use of the producer (or other person insistent on taking an unwanted active role at the console) which does nothing at all, other than keep said person busy!
>
>> On 14 Dec 2022, at 10:49, William Nuttall via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>
>> Some time four DFA's is a little limiting. I would suggest at
>> least six especially with "live" operations.
>> Tony Nuttall, In the Wilds Of Cumbria.<Screenshot 2022-12-13 at 11.10.47.png>
>> Thank you to Face Book  "I Take Pictures Of TV Studios" Group.
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> ?
> Graeme Wall
>
>
>
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From dave.mdv at btinternet.com  Wed Dec 14 08:38:04 2022
From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:38:04 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
Message-ID: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>

This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in 
the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year? 
Cheers, Dave
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Wed Dec 14 08:49:47 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:49:47 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
References: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <e1e78737-9753-b10f-25a9-d8d837f34875@amps.net>

At least you now know who the culprits are - the ones that drop the 
scaffold poles, ruining the sound take!

Pat

On 14/12/2022 14:38, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote:
> This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in 
> the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year? 
> Cheers, Dave
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 08:56:53 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:56:53 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
References: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <9457fa55-ed04-d63f-259b-efa4c028ab6d@gmail.com>

Thought you'd worked on OBs, Dave??

On 14/12/2022 14:38, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote:
> This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in 
> the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year? 
> Cheers, Dave
>


From philiptyler at me.com  Wed Dec 14 09:08:59 2022
From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 15:08:59 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <e1e78737-9753-b10f-25a9-d8d837f34875@amps.net>
References: <e1e78737-9753-b10f-25a9-d8d837f34875@amps.net>
Message-ID: <F3ABE72D-AC39-4FAD-99AA-7284BAE9CBD3@me.com>

Gerry Burrows had a recording of a scaffold pole that was dropped in the ring road. It was not unknown for this to be played in enabling a retake to be performed :))

Philip and Bee

https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/

> On 14 Dec 2022, at 14:50, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> At least you now know who the culprits are - the ones that drop the scaffold poles, ruining the sound take!
> 
> Pat
> 
> On 14/12/2022 14:38, dave.mdv via Tech1 wrote:
>> This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year? Cheers, Dave
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From alanaudio at me.com  Wed Dec 14 09:18:42 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 15:18:42 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
References: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <3F5BA929-7674-4C01-9831-2ECA1711C5AD@me.com>

Looks like that truss is to support a temporary roof.  Trouble is it might cover the chimney.  

How will Santa get in?  Somebody hasn?t been thinking ahead.

Alan



> On 14 Dec 2022, at 14:38, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year? Cheers, Dave
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> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Wed Dec 14 09:24:22 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 15:24:22 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <3F5BA929-7674-4C01-9831-2ECA1711C5AD@me.com>
References: <3F5BA929-7674-4C01-9831-2ECA1711C5AD@me.com>
Message-ID: <C604E515-493C-4211-B3F8-EB30C94D89C3@sky.com>

Santa comes via Amazon these days doesn?t he? I bet that scaffolding cost an arm and a leg.

Sent from my iPad

> On 14 Dec 2022, at 15:19, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?Looks like that truss is to support a temporary roof.  Trouble is it might cover the chimney.  
> 
> How will Santa get in?  Somebody hasn?t been thinking ahead.
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
>> On 14 Dec 2022, at 14:38, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year? Cheers, Dave
> <43, Manor Drive.JPG>
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From waresound at msn.com  Wed Dec 14 09:56:45 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 15:56:45 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Essential bit of Kit for Any serious Sound or Video
 Operation
In-Reply-To: <293f812f-4a70-9e20-1fa0-e242ac8bd5fa@amps.net>
References: <5763deca-8b26-4880-aad8-e47715720e7a@me.com>
	<5BE10FA7-A6FB-41F1-8DA9-01934DEA203E@icloud.com>
	<293f812f-4a70-9e20-1fa0-e242ac8bd5fa@amps.net>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB16043AFF914F7C14272C6C9CA7E09@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Does it have anything to do with Whitney?

Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2022, at 13:14, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?

But where's the button marked 'P' ?

On 14/12/2022 10:52, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote:

I assume that the following refers:

(Does F*** All) A fader or knob provided for the exclusive use of the producer (or other person insistent on taking an unwanted active role at the console) which does nothing at all, other than keep said person busy!



On 14 Dec 2022, at 10:49, William Nuttall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk><mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

Some time four DFA's is a little limiting. I would suggest at
least six especially with "live" operations.
Tony Nuttall, In the Wilds Of Cumbria.<Screenshot 2022-12-13 at 11.10.47.png>
Thank you to Face Book  "I Take Pictures Of TV Studios" Group.
--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk<mailto:Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


?
Graeme Wall





--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From dave.mdv at btinternet.com  Wed Dec 14 10:21:00 2022
From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:21:00 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <e1e78737-9753-b10f-25a9-d8d837f34875@amps.net>
References: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
	<e1e78737-9753-b10f-25a9-d8d837f34875@amps.net>
Message-ID: <4f84f6f3-3274-c79a-23f4-404ea4954e42@btinternet.com>

A well-known SS at TVC had a recording of one ready to play if ever a 
scene didn't go well! Cheers, Dave


From alanaudio at me.com  Wed Dec 14 10:21:15 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:21:15 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <C604E515-493C-4211-B3F8-EB30C94D89C3@sky.com>
References: <C604E515-493C-4211-B3F8-EB30C94D89C3@sky.com>
Message-ID: <54C09AE3-0C67-46D8-B1D2-853568F11759@me.com>

When we had our wood burner replaced and chimney lined, the scaffolding quote was ?250.  I thought it was rather cheaper than I anticipated and guessed that it would be a dodgy job with every corner cut. I accepted the quote as it was the company recommended by the heating contractor and they were the people who would need to be up there.

They actually did an impressively professional job.  Cross members were put up and carefully levelled with a spirit level.  Guard rails everywhere. Bolts at ground level covered with little plastic caps. Proper little gate at the top and good quality ladders secured in place. Fully boarded walkways with kick boards. Little gallows with a pulley to hoist materials up there too. I rarely encountered better on an OB.

I was quite happy to take the opportunity to climb up and examine my roof, check the pointing around the chimney and take some pictures from a different vantage point.

Rather poor timing as it happened, because a couple of minutes after I came down, a Hercules flew over doing a low flying exercise at around 200 ft above ground level, maybe lower.  It would have made a most spectacular picture, especially as I had my SLR with me. They seem to fly over the nearby castle or church tower, using it as a landmark. It happens about ten times per year. I?ve never been able to get my phone out of my pocket in time to take a picture because you hardly hear then coming, they?re just suddenly there and then they?ve gone, which I suppose is the whole point of flying low and fast.  Hard for enemies to take pot shots at them and hard for me to take camera shots too.

Alan



> On 14 Dec 2022, at 15:24, B Wilkinson <barry-wilkinson at sky.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Santa comes via Amazon these days doesn?t he? I bet that scaffolding cost an arm and a leg.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On 14 Dec 2022, at 15:19, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Looks like that truss is to support a temporary roof.  Trouble is it might cover the chimney.  
>> 
>> How will Santa get in?  Somebody hasn?t been thinking ahead.
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> On 14 Dec 2022, at 14:38, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year? Cheers, Dave
>> <43, Manor Drive.JPG>
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> 


From pat.heigham at amps.net  Wed Dec 14 10:41:16 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:41:16 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <3F5BA929-7674-4C01-9831-2ECA1711C5AD@me.com>
References: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
	<3F5BA929-7674-4C01-9831-2ECA1711C5AD@me.com>
Message-ID: <89f35588-2b76-911e-92c9-f5a3048e2b58@amps.net>

Ah! but Santa has a HoverSleigh, based on a decommissioned Harrier, then 
he can abseil to the roof, and crawl along with the sack gripped in his 
teeth!

Pat

On 14/12/2022 15:18, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
> Looks like that truss is to support a temporary roof.  Trouble is it might cover the chimney.
>
> How will Santa get in?  Somebody hasn?t been thinking ahead.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>> On 14 Dec 2022, at 14:38, dave.mdv via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>
>> ?This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year? Cheers, Dave
>>
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>>
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From alanaudio at me.com  Wed Dec 14 10:48:38 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:48:38 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <4f84f6f3-3274-c79a-23f4-404ea4954e42@btinternet.com>
References: <4f84f6f3-3274-c79a-23f4-404ea4954e42@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <F0D5A705-02B9-415F-B66D-BEF5B0F0DA09@me.com>

I once did a live broadcast where Ian Paisley was a contributor to a discussion programme via a live link. He continually shouted all over everybody at our end and wouldn?t shut up when asked.  Our director was getting rather miffed with his behaviour, so I reached over the the jackfield and gave the feed from Belfast a good wiggle, creating loud splats on his audio.  It gave our presenter an opportunity to say that we seem to be having technical problems with the feed from Belfast and unfortunately we?ll have to say goodbye to the Rev Paisley and thanked him for his contribution.

Afterwards, the director said that she?s never had such a fortunately timed tech problem.  I explained that it wasn?t really a tech problem and that if she took the opportunity to use it as an excuse to terminate the feed from him, then that was her decision, but if she had decided to continue anyway, the ?fault? would have gone away. She said that she liked my style and gave me a big hug.

Alan


> On 14 Dec 2022, at 16:21, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?A well-known SS at TVC had a recording of one ready to play if ever a scene didn't go well! Cheers, Dave
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


From dave.mdv at btinternet.com  Wed Dec 14 11:40:17 2022
From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:40:17 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <6EFB3D57-33FE-4DAB-B3C3-9DF067B2BD30@mac.com>
References: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
	<e1e78737-9753-b10f-25a9-d8d837f34875@amps.net>
	<4f84f6f3-3274-c79a-23f4-404ea4954e42@btinternet.com>
	<6EFB3D57-33FE-4DAB-B3C3-9DF067B2BD30@mac.com>
Message-ID: <f1d10ac8-a3a4-4744-7c85-5337cfcf8955@btinternet.com>

Yes, we were. I have the plans from the council web-site. However they 
have cut the original plans slightly which I was also notified about. 
The house was previously owned by an 84 year old lady who we were 
'key-holders' for, as was the neighbour round the corner. The house next 
door had applied for planning permission for a huge rear extension which 
would have cut off all of the afternoon sun from her living room so all 
of the neighbours objected to the plans and it was rejected. A year 
later the old lady, having gone la-la, went into a care home and died 
Almost immediately the neighbours submitted a revised extension plan 
which was allowed! So that's why the new owners are having their own 
extension! Simplez! It is still being built in the twilight! They may be 
Polish but I can't be sure, they are certainly foreign! Cheers, Dave


From waresound at msn.com  Wed Dec 14 11:58:57 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:58:57 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <54C09AE3-0C67-46D8-B1D2-853568F11759@me.com>
References: <C604E515-493C-4211-B3F8-EB30C94D89C3@sky.com>
	<54C09AE3-0C67-46D8-B1D2-853568F11759@me.com>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB1604E4FA6902DD5CE5F869B7A7E09@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

We are about a mile from the easterly approach runway at the now disused Dunsfold Aerodrome. Disused that is, apart from the racket that Top Gear makes - it?s their base.
Also, home to several other ?retired? aircraft. The last arrival being this Boeing 747, now engineless, and being used as a film set in its retirement. We all knew it was coming, and it got a good turnout of spectators. Rumour has it that the buyer paid ?1 for it. Pilot did one low recce pass and go-around, then a fabulous landing on half the length of what for it is a very short runway. It won?t be leaving.

There?s a huge battle going on to stop developers building 1500+ houses on the airfield. No proper roads nearby, no local shops, schools, medical infrastructure, no busses or railways, notoriously inadequate water supply and sewerage, so they'll probably win and get the go-ahead. 1500+ lots of Council Tax innit?

We had our entire roof renewed a few weeks ago, since this piccy. The scaffolding cost more than the roof itself!
Cheers,
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
[image0.jpeg]
On 14 Dec 2022, at 16:21, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?When we had our wood burner replaced and chimney lined, the scaffolding quote was ?250.  I thought it was rather cheaper than I anticipated and guessed that it would be a dodgy job with every corner cut. I accepted the quote as it was the company recommended by the heating contractor and they were the people who would need to be up there.

They actually did an impressively professional job.  Cross members were put up and carefully levelled with a spirit level.  Guard rails everywhere. Bolts at ground level covered with little plastic caps. Proper little gate at the top and good quality ladders secured in place. Fully boarded walkways with kick boards. Little gallows with a pulley to hoist materials up there too. I rarely encountered better on an OB.

I was quite happy to take the opportunity to climb up and examine my roof, check the pointing around the chimney and take some pictures from a different vantage point.

Rather poor timing as it happened, because a couple of minutes after I came down, a Hercules flew over doing a low flying exercise at around 200 ft above ground level, maybe lower.  It would have made a most spectacular picture, especially as I had my SLR with me. They seem to fly over the nearby castle or church tower, using it as a landmark. It happens about ten times per year. I?ve never been able to get my phone out of my pocket in time to take a picture because you hardly hear then coming, they?re just suddenly there and then they?ve gone, which I suppose is the whole point of flying low and fast.  Hard for enemies to take pot shots at them and hard for me to take camera shots too.

Alan



On 14 Dec 2022, at 15:24, B Wilkinson <barry-wilkinson at sky.com> wrote:

?Santa comes via Amazon these days doesn?t he? I bet that scaffolding cost an arm and a leg.

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2022, at 15:19, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?Looks like that truss is to support a temporary roof.  Trouble is it might cover the chimney.

How will Santa get in?  Somebody hasn?t been thinking ahead.

Alan



On 14 Dec 2022, at 14:38, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year? Cheers, Dave
<43, Manor Drive.JPG>
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Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Wed Dec 14 12:42:42 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 18:42:42 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Essential bit of Kit for Any serious Sound or Video
 Operation
In-Reply-To: <5BE10FA7-A6FB-41F1-8DA9-01934DEA203E@icloud.com>
References: <5763deca-8b26-4880-aad8-e47715720e7a@me.com>
	<5BE10FA7-A6FB-41F1-8DA9-01934DEA203E@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <860cd55b-ba65-b8b6-de7a-33afaf0acba1@amps.net>


On 14/12/2022 10:52, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote:
> I assume that the following refers:
>
> (Does F*** All) A fader or knob provided for the exclusive use of the producer (or other person insistent on taking an unwanted active role at the console) which does nothing at all, other than keep said person busy!
>
>> On 14 Dec 2022, at 10:49, William Nuttall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Some time four DFA's is a little limiting. I would suggest at
>> least six especially with "live" operations.
>> Tony Nuttall, In the Wilds Of Cumbria.<Screenshot 2022-12-13 at 11.10.47.png>
>> Thank you to Face Book  "I Take Pictures Of TV Studios" Group.
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> ?
> Graeme Wall
>
>
>


From pat.heigham at amps.net  Wed Dec 14 12:47:43 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 18:47:43 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Essential bit of Kit for Any serious Sound or Video
 Operation
In-Reply-To: <5BE10FA7-A6FB-41F1-8DA9-01934DEA203E@icloud.com>
References: <5763deca-8b26-4880-aad8-e47715720e7a@me.com>
	<5BE10FA7-A6FB-41F1-8DA9-01934DEA203E@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <cc82ed87-9d6f-4d55-cc3a-0a5ce45c2065@amps.net>

This somehow reminds me of the spoof pulled to new, wet behind the ears, 
tech ops persons, who were sent up to stores to get 'a peak white 
clipper' or
'a black level clamp'. I suspect that the store keepers were aware of 
this one.

Pat


On 14/12/2022 10:52, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote:
> I assume that the following refers:
>
> (Does F*** All) A fader or knob provided for the exclusive use of the producer (or other person insistent on taking an unwanted active role at the console) which does nothing at all, other than keep said person busy!
>
>> On 14 Dec 2022, at 10:49, William Nuttall via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>
>> Some time four DFA's is a little limiting. I would suggest at
>> least six especially with "live" operations.
>> Tony Nuttall, In the Wilds Of Cumbria.<Screenshot 2022-12-13 at 11.10.47.png>
>> Thank you to Face Book  "I Take Pictures Of TV Studios" Group.
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> ?
> Graeme Wall
>
>
>
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Wed Dec 14 12:53:56 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 18:53:56 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB1604E4FA6902DD5CE5F869B7A7E09@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <C604E515-493C-4211-B3F8-EB30C94D89C3@sky.com>
	<54C09AE3-0C67-46D8-B1D2-853568F11759@me.com>
	<AM9P191MB1604E4FA6902DD5CE5F869B7A7E09@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <faa7367d-bab9-9810-9b6b-75f3c8c017f7@amps.net>

Smashing pic, Nick

Was it John Travolta who had a Boeing 707, and the certification to fly it?
What it must have cost in maintenance, & fuel to play with it....

Pat

On 14/12/2022 17:58, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
> We are about a mile from the easterly approach runway at the now 
> disused Dunsfold Aerodrome. Disused that is, apart from the racket 
> that Top Gear makes - it?s their base.
> Also, home to several other ?retired? aircraft. The last arrival being 
> this Boeing 747, now engineless, and being used as a film set in its 
> retirement. We all knew it was coming, and it got a good turnout of 
> spectators. Rumour has it that the buyer paid ?1 for it. Pilot did one 
> low recce pass and go-around, then a fabulous landing on half the 
> length of what for it is a very short runway. It won?t be leaving.
>
> There?s a huge battle going on to stop developers building 1500+ 
> houses on the airfield. No proper roads nearby, no local shops, 
> schools, medical infrastructure, no busses or railways, notoriously 
> inadequate water supply and sewerage, so they'll probably win and get 
> the go-ahead. 1500+ lots of Council Tax innit?
>
> We had our entire roof renewed a few weeks ago, since this piccy. The 
> scaffolding cost more than the roof itself!
> Cheers,
> N.
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
> image0.jpeg
>
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From crew13 at vincent68.plus.com  Wed Dec 14 12:57:16 2022
From: crew13 at vincent68.plus.com (crew13)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 18:57:16 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Cold Working
Message-ID: <0AAFF48B-2B8D-4CA9-B19D-14EB1E3CDC38@vincent68.plus.com>

Night shoot on the Eastenders Lot in winter.

Now that?s proper Brass Monkeys!

John V

From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Wed Dec 14 14:20:34 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 20:20:34 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
References: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <FE9807C453D4478B94FF32D6997E3653@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

I guess Dave it's a toss up between brass monkey weather and searing hot 
summers like last summer. We had to be re-roofed and the way the builder's 
schedule worked out had men doing the job over the very peak of the extreme 
temperatures. Roof tiles were far too hot to touch bare-handed as of course 
was the scaffold itself, yet the men worked right through and never 
grumbled. I struggled to cope with the heat for long enough to take cold 
drinks out to them.

Dave Newbitt.



-----Original Message----- 
From: dave.mdv via Tech1
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2022 2:38 PM
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk ; Dave
Subject: [Tech1] Building works

This scaffolding, on the house opposite to me, went up this morning in
the freezing cold, anyone fancy being a builder at this time of year?
Cheers, Dave





-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk 



From waresound at msn.com  Wed Dec 14 14:23:42 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 20:23:42 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <faa7367d-bab9-9810-9b6b-75f3c8c017f7@amps.net>
References: <faa7367d-bab9-9810-9b6b-75f3c8c017f7@amps.net>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB160438D4720CE3D1AD9F6E90A7E09@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Google him. He has at least seven jet aircraft and at 68 has a net worth of $250 million.
Where did we all go wrong? I?ll tell you where - standing at the wrong end of the lens!

I went to a an illustrated talk here in Cranleigh by Simon Whittle last week. Son of Sir Frank Whittle, true inventor of the jet engine as we know it. I actually know him quite well, friend of Nigel Reynolds, and co-owner of Nigel?s current aircraft. Fascinating stuff, and he has some incredible very early experimental jet stuff at his home near here.
Cheers,
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2022, at 18:54, Pat Heigham <pat.heigham at amps.net> wrote:

?

Smashing pic, Nick

Was it John Travolta who had a Boeing 707, and the certification to fly it?
What it must have cost in maintenance, & fuel to play with it....

Pat

On 14/12/2022 17:58, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
We are about a mile from the easterly approach runway at the now disused Dunsfold Aerodrome. Disused that is, apart from the racket that Top Gear makes - it?s their base.
Also, home to several other ?retired? aircraft. The last arrival being this Boeing 747, now engineless, and being used as a film set in its retirement. We all knew it was coming, and it got a good turnout of spectators. Rumour has it that the buyer paid ?1 for it. Pilot did one low recce pass and go-around, then a fabulous landing on half the length of what for it is a very short runway. It won?t be leaving.

There?s a huge battle going on to stop developers building 1500+ houses on the airfield. No proper roads nearby, no local shops, schools, medical infrastructure, no busses or railways, notoriously inadequate water supply and sewerage, so they'll probably win and get the go-ahead. 1500+ lots of Council Tax innit?

We had our entire roof renewed a few weeks ago, since this piccy. The scaffolding cost more than the roof itself!
Cheers,
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
<image0.jpeg>

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From saranewman at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 14 15:08:38 2022
From: saranewman at hotmail.com (Sara Newman)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 21:08:38 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB160438D4720CE3D1AD9F6E90A7E09@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AM9P191MB160438D4720CE3D1AD9F6E90A7E09@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <DB9P195MB208449AE3FD587D05290E0B9D0E09@DB9P195MB2084.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Did he tell you about the Vaidya Ring ? Without it the engine doesn?t work. The son of the man who invented it is a great friend of mine. Lots of people contributed in the invention of this amazingly engine Some rarely get a mention but their part is as important
Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On 14 Dec 2022, at 20:24, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

? Google him. He has at least seven jet aircraft and at 68 has a net worth of $250 million.
Where did we all go wrong? I?ll tell you where - standing at the wrong end of the lens!

I went to a an illustrated talk here in Cranleigh by Simon Whittle last week. Son of Sir Frank Whittle, true inventor of the jet engine as we know it. I actually know him quite well, friend of Nigel Reynolds, and co-owner of Nigel?s current aircraft. Fascinating stuff, and he has some incredible very early experimental jet stuff at his home near here.
Cheers,
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2022, at 18:54, Pat Heigham <pat.heigham at amps.net> wrote:

?

Smashing pic, Nick

Was it John Travolta who had a Boeing 707, and the certification to fly it?
What it must have cost in maintenance, & fuel to play with it....

Pat

On 14/12/2022 17:58, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
We are about a mile from the easterly approach runway at the now disused Dunsfold Aerodrome. Disused that is, apart from the racket that Top Gear makes - it?s their base.
Also, home to several other ?retired? aircraft. The last arrival being this Boeing 747, now engineless, and being used as a film set in its retirement. We all knew it was coming, and it got a good turnout of spectators. Rumour has it that the buyer paid ?1 for it. Pilot did one low recce pass and go-around, then a fabulous landing on half the length of what for it is a very short runway. It won?t be leaving.

There?s a huge battle going on to stop developers building 1500+ houses on the airfield. No proper roads nearby, no local shops, schools, medical infrastructure, no busses or railways, notoriously inadequate water supply and sewerage, so they'll probably win and get the go-ahead. 1500+ lots of Council Tax innit?

We had our entire roof renewed a few weeks ago, since this piccy. The scaffolding cost more than the roof itself!
Cheers,
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
<image0.jpeg>

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Tech1 mailing list
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From mibridge at mac.com  Wed Dec 14 16:13:37 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 22:13:37 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <f1d10ac8-a3a4-4744-7c85-5337cfcf8955@btinternet.com>
References: <be38b715-d5ac-3086-56dc-5d3eeed083b1@btinternet.com>
	<e1e78737-9753-b10f-25a9-d8d837f34875@amps.net>
	<4f84f6f3-3274-c79a-23f4-404ea4954e42@btinternet.com>
	<6EFB3D57-33FE-4DAB-B3C3-9DF067B2BD30@mac.com>
	<f1d10ac8-a3a4-4744-7c85-5337cfcf8955@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <F15B2EBA-D817-4886-99E5-46CAB01C934B@mac.com>

Our newish neighbours, both in the police, submitted a planning application almost as soon as they?d moved in nearly two years ago. We objected strongly to the proposed garage in the front garden, well in front of the building line and requested that the extension to the side of the house be reduced in scale as it will dominate our back garden and patio.

On checking the allowable reasons for objection, loss of sunlight is specifically excluded, as is loss of view and the extension was allowed with minor alteration. The garage was allowed as planned. We learned through our daughter, who has a friend in the planning department, that the planning officer concerned had once before rejected a vaguely similar garage application, but it was allowed on appeal, and this apparently involved quite a bit of stress for the planning officer, so she probably decided to avoid the subsequent hassle, were she to reject the garage application, but the friend said that had she been making the decision, she would most certainly not have allowed the garage at all, and would have required further reductions in the scale of the extension to the house.

It seems that it matters who is assigned the case as to whether unreasonable applications are accepted.

Mike G

> On 14 Dec 2022, at 17:40, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> Yes, we were. I have the plans from the council web-site. However they have cut the original plans slightly which I was also notified about. The house was previously owned by an 84 year old lady who we were 'key-holders' for, as was the neighbour round the corner. The house next door had applied for planning permission for a huge rear extension which would have cut off all of the afternoon sun from her living room so all of the neighbours objected to the plans and it was rejected. A year later the old lady, having gone la-la, went into a care home and died Almost immediately the neighbours submitted a revised extension plan which was allowed! So that's why the new owners are having their own extension! Simplez! It is still being built in the twilight! They may be Polish but I can't be sure, they are certainly foreign! Cheers, Dave
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Wed Dec 14 16:41:08 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 22:41:08 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] An Essential bit of Kit for Any serious Sound or Video
 Operation
In-Reply-To: <cc82ed87-9d6f-4d55-cc3a-0a5ce45c2065@amps.net>
References: <5763deca-8b26-4880-aad8-e47715720e7a@me.com>
	<5BE10FA7-A6FB-41F1-8DA9-01934DEA203E@icloud.com>
	<cc82ed87-9d6f-4d55-cc3a-0a5ce45c2065@amps.net>
Message-ID: <C0395821-2029-490C-9D88-B02F9463B487@icloud.com>

A box of 3/8th Whitworth holes and a long weight.

> On 14 Dec 2022, at 18:47, Pat Heigham <pat.heigham at amps.net> wrote:
> 
> This somehow reminds me of the spoof pulled to new, wet behind the ears, tech ops persons, who were sent up to stores to get 'a peak white clipper' or
> 'a black level clamp'. I suspect that the store keepers were aware of this one.
> Pat
> 
> On 14/12/2022 10:52, Graeme Wall via Tech1 wrote:
>> I assume that the following refers:
>> 
>> (Does F*** All) A fader or knob provided for the exclusive use of the producer (or other person insistent on taking an unwanted active role at the console) which does nothing at all, other than keep said person busy!
>> 
>> 
>>> On 14 Dec 2022, at 10:49, William Nuttall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Some time four DFA's is a little limiting. I would suggest at
>>> least six especially with "live" operations.
>>> Tony Nuttall, In the Wilds Of Cumbria.<Screenshot 2022-12-13 at 11.10.47.png>
>>> Thank you to Face Book "I Take Pictures Of TV Studios" Group.
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>> 
>> ? 
>> Graeme Wall
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 

? 
Graeme Wall




From Waresound at msn.com  Wed Dec 14 16:42:07 2022
From: Waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 22:42:07 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
In-Reply-To: <DB9P195MB208449AE3FD587D05290E0B9D0E09@DB9P195MB2084.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AM9P191MB160438D4720CE3D1AD9F6E90A7E09@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<DB9P195MB208449AE3FD587D05290E0B9D0E09@DB9P195MB2084.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB1604362788D408FE1161DD3AA7E09@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Sara,
I don?t recollect him mentioning that, as it was more about Frank?s life story. Simon is a very experienced pilot and jet aviation historian himself. Tell me about the Vaidya ring and I?ll ask him about it. He did acknowledge a number of others who Frank collaborated with. It would be interesting to know what your friend knows about Simon Whittle, and what Simon knows about your friend.
As I understand it:
Apparently it was Frank who first had the idea of using the thrust to move the engine (and therefore the aircraft) forward in opposition to the thrust, and further re-heating and compressing the thrust for much greater forward power. Only then, was the jet engine slim and compact enough to mount in an aircraft. And then later, the large front fan to concentrate a greater volume of air into the combustion chambers. Before that it had been seen mainly as a gas turbine device, utilising the shaft rotation energy to drive a propeller, whilst the thrust potential wasn?t realised. That, or use it static to drive a generator, hovercraft props, etc. (I once worked on a fascinating documentary about the development of the SRN4 hovercraft). That?s an over-simplified version of what I came away with. Where are you located? If you get the chance to hear Simon?s talk, along with a lot of fascinating illustrations, and some rarely seen film footage, it?s an opportunity not to be missed, and the Mulled wine was good too! I can put you in touch. He has a barn on his land which is a fascinating private museum of Whittle memorabilia.
Cheers,
Nick.

Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2022, at 21:08, Sara Newman <saranewman at hotmail.com> wrote:

? Hi Did he tell you about the Vaidya Ring ? Without it the engine doesn?t work. The son of the man who invented it is a great friend of mine. Lots of people contributed in the invention of this amazingly engine Some rarely get a mention but their part is as important
Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On 14 Dec 2022, at 20:24, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

? Google him. He has at least seven jet aircraft and at 68 has a net worth of $250 million.
Where did we all go wrong? I?ll tell you where - standing at the wrong end of the lens!

I went to a an illustrated talk here in Cranleigh by Simon Whittle last week. Son of Sir Frank Whittle, true inventor of the jet engine as we know it. I actually know him quite well, friend of Nigel Reynolds, and co-owner of Nigel?s current aircraft. Fascinating stuff, and he has some incredible very early experimental jet stuff at his home near here.
Cheers,
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2022, at 18:54, Pat Heigham <pat.heigham at amps.net> wrote:

?

Smashing pic, Nick

Was it John Travolta who had a Boeing 707, and the certification to fly it?
What it must have cost in maintenance, & fuel to play with it....

Pat

On 14/12/2022 17:58, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
We are about a mile from the easterly approach runway at the now disused Dunsfold Aerodrome. Disused that is, apart from the racket that Top Gear makes - it?s their base.
Also, home to several other ?retired? aircraft. The last arrival being this Boeing 747, now engineless, and being used as a film set in its retirement. We all knew it was coming, and it got a good turnout of spectators. Rumour has it that the buyer paid ?1 for it. Pilot did one low recce pass and go-around, then a fabulous landing on half the length of what for it is a very short runway. It won?t be leaving.

There?s a huge battle going on to stop developers building 1500+ houses on the airfield. No proper roads nearby, no local shops, schools, medical infrastructure, no busses or railways, notoriously inadequate water supply and sewerage, so they'll probably win and get the go-ahead. 1500+ lots of Council Tax innit?

We had our entire roof renewed a few weeks ago, since this piccy. The scaffolding cost more than the roof itself!
Cheers,
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
<image0.jpeg>

--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From alawrance1 at me.com  Wed Dec 14 16:50:09 2022
From: alawrance1 at me.com (Alasdair Lawrance)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 22:50:09 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
Message-ID: <EC8E9EA8-84D1-414F-9D33-08F1DFD822CE@me.com>

?Mike - 
These planning decisions are often a mystery to those affected by them.

It really does depend on the individual officer, and those in the know will deliberately wait for rumoured changes of planning officers to try and wrong foot them on their first day in office, for example.

Local councils are so impoverished that they dare not go to appeal on big schemes, because big applications will have fleets of lawyers in attendance, which would  bankrupt many councils. In my area there are alledgedly well over 100 enforcement orders active which can not be taken to court (for non-compliance) for fear of the costs involved.

It's one of the consequences of the way business rates work - councils are merely tax collectors for the treasury, which re-distributes the money as it, or possibly the party in power, sees fit.  This re- distribution is often the cause of much argy-bargy, funnily enough.


Alasdair Lawrance

Don?t blame me, I voted Remain.



> On 14 Dec 2022, at 22:18, Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> ?Our newish neighbours, both in the police, submitted a planning application almost as soon as they?d moved in nearly two years ago. We objected strongly to the proposed garage in the front garden, well in front of the building line and requested that the extension to the side of the house be reduced in scale as it will dominate our back garden and patio.
> 
> On checking the allowable reasons for objection, loss of sunlight is specifically excluded, as is loss of view and the extension was allowed with minor alteration. The garage was allowed as planned. We learned through our daughter, who has a friend in the planning department, that the planning officer concerned had once before rejected a vaguely similar garage application, but it was allowed on appeal, and this apparently involved quite a bit of stress for the planning officer, so she probably decided to avoid the subsequent hassle, were she to reject the garage application, but the friend said that had she been making the decision, she would most certainly not have allowed the garage at all, and would have required further reductions in the scale of the extension to the house.
> 
> It seems that it matters who is assigned the case as to whether unreasonable applications are accepted.
> 
> Mike G
> 
>> On 14 Dec 2022, at 17:40, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> Yes, we were. I have the plans from the council web-site. However they have cut the original plans slightly which I was also notified about. The house was previously owned by an 84 year old lady who we were 'key-holders' for, as was the neighbour round the corner. The house next door had applied for planning permission for a huge rear extension which would have cut off all of the afternoon sun from her living room so all of the neighbours objected to the plans and it was rejected. A year later the old lady, having gone la-la, went into a care home and died Almost immediately the neighbours submitted a revised extension plan which was allowed! So that's why the new owners are having their own extension! Simplez! It is still being built in the twilight! They may be Polish but I can't be sure, they are certainly foreign! Cheers, Dave
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


From waresound at msn.com  Wed Dec 14 18:02:05 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 00:02:05 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB1604E8481C766942D0C44F90A7E19@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

??Oops, sorry, this was meant for Sara, but no harm done I hope.
Nick.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2022, at 22:42, Nick Ware <waresound at msn.com> wrote:

? Hi Sara,
I don?t recollect him mentioning that, as it was more about Frank?s life story. Simon is a very experienced pilot and jet aviation historian himself. Tell me about the Vaidya ring and I?ll ask him about it. He did acknowledge a number of others who Frank collaborated with. It would be interesting to know what your friend knows about Simon Whittle, and what Simon knows about your friend.
As I understand it:
Apparently it was Frank who first had the idea of using the thrust to move the engine (and therefore the aircraft) forward in opposition to the thrust, and further re-heating and compressing the thrust for much greater forward power. Only then, was the jet engine slim and compact enough to mount in an aircraft. And then later, the large front fan to concentrate a greater volume of air into the combustion chambers. Before that it had been seen mainly as a gas turbine device, utilising the shaft rotation energy to drive a propeller, whilst the thrust potential wasn?t realised. That, or use it static to drive a generator, hovercraft props, etc. (I once worked on a fascinating documentary about the development of the SRN4 hovercraft). That?s an over-simplified version of what I came away with. Where are you located? If you get the chance to hear Simon?s talk, along with a lot of fascinating illustrations, and some rarely seen film footage, it?s an opportunity not to be missed, and the Mulled wine was good too! I can put you in touch. He has a barn on his land which is a fascinating private museum of Whittle memorabilia.
Cheers,
Nick.

Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2022, at 21:08, Sara Newman <saranewman at hotmail.com> wrote:

? Hi Did he tell you about the Vaidya Ring ? Without it the engine doesn?t work. The son of the man who invented it is a great friend of mine. Lots of people contributed in the invention of this amazingly engine Some rarely get a mention but their part is as important
Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On 14 Dec 2022, at 20:24, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

? Google him. He has at least seven jet aircraft and at 68 has a net worth of $250 million.
Where did we all go wrong? I?ll tell you where - standing at the wrong end of the lens!

I went to a an illustrated talk here in Cranleigh by Simon Whittle last week. Son of Sir Frank Whittle, true inventor of the jet engine as we know it. I actually know him quite well, friend of Nigel Reynolds, and co-owner of Nigel?s current aircraft. Fascinating stuff, and he has some incredible very early experimental jet stuff at his home near here.
Cheers,
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 14 Dec 2022, at 18:54, Pat Heigham <pat.heigham at amps.net> wrote:

?

Smashing pic, Nick

Was it John Travolta who had a Boeing 707, and the certification to fly it?
What it must have cost in maintenance, & fuel to play with it....

Pat

On 14/12/2022 17:58, Nick Ware via Tech1 wrote:
We are about a mile from the easterly approach runway at the now disused Dunsfold Aerodrome. Disused that is, apart from the racket that Top Gear makes - it?s their base.
Also, home to several other ?retired? aircraft. The last arrival being this Boeing 747, now engineless, and being used as a film set in its retirement. We all knew it was coming, and it got a good turnout of spectators. Rumour has it that the buyer paid ?1 for it. Pilot did one low recce pass and go-around, then a fabulous landing on half the length of what for it is a very short runway. It won?t be leaving.

There?s a huge battle going on to stop developers building 1500+ houses on the airfield. No proper roads nearby, no local shops, schools, medical infrastructure, no busses or railways, notoriously inadequate water supply and sewerage, so they'll probably win and get the go-ahead. 1500+ lots of Council Tax innit?

We had our entire roof renewed a few weeks ago, since this piccy. The scaffolding cost more than the roof itself!
Cheers,
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
<image0.jpeg>

--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From alanaudio at me.com  Thu Dec 15 02:46:51 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 08:46:51 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Pioneering jet aircraft ( was Building works)
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB1604E8481C766942D0C44F90A7E19@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AM9P191MB1604E8481C766942D0C44F90A7E19@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <DD36A0F5-EBC7-4B58-A356-4766F6296637@me.com>

> When I moved to the Banbury area, in my village there were two old guys who used to talk about RAF Edgehill ( now known as Shenington airfield ).

In 1942 the base was used for flight testing the prototype Gloster E28/39 aircraft, which was the first experimental jet powered RAF aircraft.  One guy had an aunt who lived very close to the base and she had aircrew billeted with her.  As a boy, he often cycled over to visit her and would be particularly thrilled if he got to see the jet powered aeroplane in flight. Apparently there was a dedicated flight lane between Shenington and Cheltenham, which was used for jet flight testing.

The other guy was a little younger, but was born at the end of the war after his father started work as an air mechanic on the E29/39 at RAF Edgehill where he met and married a local girl. His father subsequently went on to work on the first batch of Meteors, which were developed from the E29/39.

Shenington is still an airfield, used mostly for gliders.  Two of the three WW2 runways are still there. The third was reputedly dug up and used as hardcore for building the M40 nearby.

Alan
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Fri Dec 16 05:47:42 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 11:47:42 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Marion Gates (that was)
Message-ID: <3cb1f081-ccb3-e1a8-8729-8971d2c64708@amps.net>

Although I left Tech-Ops many years ago, I kept in touch with Marion, 
our Sound Allocations Secretary.

I attempted an e-mail to which I have had no acknowlegement, when 
normally replied to.

The phone number I had (in France) which usually worked, was 'unrecognised'

Does anyone know if she is still alive?

Regards

Pat Heigham
Tech ops 1961-68
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From waresound at msn.com  Fri Dec 16 14:19:58 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 20:19:58 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
Message-ID: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
Any thoughts?
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

From nickrodger at mac.com  Fri Dec 16 14:23:33 2022
From: nickrodger at mac.com (Nick Rodger)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 20:23:33 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <B05BDC6E-6386-4796-8059-821BD0DEE53B@mac.com>

I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject, 

but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow 

to the outside from freezing and getting blocked. 


Nick Rodger 
Cameraman (Retired) 
07971 007578 
nickrodger at mac.com <mailto:nickrodger at mac.com>  

Don?t blame me!! 
I voted Remain ??













On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
Any thoughts?
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 14:32:50 2022
From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 20:32:50 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <B05BDC6E-6386-4796-8059-821BD0DEE53B@mac.com>
References: <B05BDC6E-6386-4796-8059-821BD0DEE53B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CE857E76-FEC3-4839-8F38-B2DC31F0B356@gmail.com>

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From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Fri Dec 16 14:41:01 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 20:41:01 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <BB1679E5-2A88-456D-99C9-8152760458E9@sky.com>

My daughter?s boiler is leaking onto some electronics underneath?.you are not alone, and it is always just before Xmas when these things happen.
I am on storage heaters which are generally fault free or at least not all of them break at once so feel slightly smug.
Mind you I have just been told by Octopus how much my electricity is going up after December. Without the government grants it is frighteningly high. Not sure if gas will follow the same route.

Sent from my iPad

> On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:20, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
> Any thoughts?
> N.
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From waresound at msn.com  Fri Dec 16 16:27:00 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 22:27:00 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <B05BDC6E-6386-4796-8059-821BD0DEE53B@mac.com>
References: <B05BDC6E-6386-4796-8059-821BD0DEE53B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB16044B2061DC5AB334A88CB6A7E69@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after which, runs horizontally for about 6ft  into drain. That would be fine if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone might find this useful.
The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:

? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,

but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow

to the outside from freezing and getting blocked.


Nick Rodger
Cameraman (Retired)
07971 007578
nickrodger at mac.com<mailto:nickrodger at mac.com>

Don?t blame me!!
I voted Remain ??













On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
Any thoughts?
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From doug.prior at talktalk.net  Fri Dec 16 16:46:46 2022
From: doug.prior at talktalk.net (doug prior)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 22:46:46 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] FW:  Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB16044B2061DC5AB334A88CB6A7E69@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <B05BDC6E-6386-4796-8059-821BD0DEE53B@mac.com>
	<AM9P191MB16044B2061DC5AB334A88CB6A7E69@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <mailman.1.1671230820.427106.tech1_tech-ops.co.uk@tech-ops.co.uk>

Poor installation with a horizontal condensate pipe is a common problem with condensing boilers in frosty weather. Condensate only drips and can easily freeze in the pipe before it finds the drain. 
Those boilers will probably all be working next week.
I remember from my youth dripping taps and outside waste  hoppers freezing up right into the house.
Warmer winters and indoor plumbing mostly removed the problem.

Doug Prior

Sent from Mail for Windows

From: Nick Ware via Tech1
Sent: 16 December 2022 22:27
To: nickrodger at mac.com
Cc: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after which, runs horizontally for about 6ft ?into drain. That would be fine if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone might find this useful. 
The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad


On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:
? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,? 

but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow?

to the outside from freezing and getting blocked.?


Nick Rodger?
Cameraman (Retired)?
07971 007578?
nickrodger at mac.com ?

Don?t blame me!!?
I voted Remain ??













On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
Any thoughts?
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Fri Dec 16 17:16:35 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 23:16:35 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB16044B2061DC5AB334A88CB6A7E69@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <B05BDC6E-6386-4796-8059-821BD0DEE53B@mac.com>
	<AM9P191MB16044B2061DC5AB334A88CB6A7E69@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <3DE8DFA61D7D46B5BFF353BE10A37C78@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Our former home was on the 700 ft contour line and was ?sun-backed? as the local terminology went ? no sun for the two months over the solstice. We had temperatures down to ?18C so freezing condensate was something guarded against at installation. 

There are special traps to suit o/flow diameter pipework which, in conjunction with an in-line cartridge filter arrangement, enable the discharge to be teed into an existing internal waste. The filter is necessary to counteract the potential for the condensate to attack plastic waste plumbing. Our boiler was in an attached outhouse which also housed a WC and wash-basin so I found it easy to fit the arrangement up. Where convenient waste piping is present the system is bomb proof.

Dave Newbitt.

From: Nick Ware via Tech1 
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 10:27 PM
To: nickrodger at mac.com 
Cc: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after which, runs horizontally for about 6ft  into drain. That would be fine if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone might find this useful. 
The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!

Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad


  On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:


  ? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,  

  but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow 

  to the outside from freezing and getting blocked. 


  Nick Rodger 
  Cameraman (Retired) 
  07971 007578 
  nickrodger at mac.com  

  Don?t blame me!! 
  I voted Remain ??













  On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

  The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
  Any thoughts?
  N.
  Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
  -- 
  Tech1 mailing list
  Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
  http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk




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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 18:15:53 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 00:15:53 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <3DE8DFA61D7D46B5BFF353BE10A37C78@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <B05BDC6E-6386-4796-8059-821BD0DEE53B@mac.com>
	<AM9P191MB16044B2061DC5AB334A88CB6A7E69@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<3DE8DFA61D7D46B5BFF353BE10A37C78@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <aff7cec1-0927-b5a6-ec5f-f8f7e359a4f0@gmail.com>

The condensate pipe from my boiler is a corrugated plastic pipe. Which 
goes into an external PVC stack - luckily very close to it. Perhaps it 
is copper it would attack? As every other pipe to the boiler, including 
the overflow, are copper.

A few years ago, the condensate pipe spit where it exits the wall and 
was running down the bricks. Ordered a new pipe, but did a temporary 
repair with self amalgamating tape. That has held, and I've yet to fit 
the new one. Which is slightly higher up than I can reach with a step 
ladder.

On 16/12/2022 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
> Our former home was on the 700 ft contour line and was ?sun-backed? as 
> the local terminology went ? no sun for the two months over the 
> solstice. We had temperatures down to ?18C so freezing condensate was 
> something guarded against at installation.
> There are special traps to suit o/flow diameter pipework which, in 
> conjunction with an in-line cartridge filter arrangement, enable the 
> discharge to be teed into an existing internal waste. The filter is 
> necessary to counteract the potential for the condensate to attack 
> plastic waste plumbing. Our boiler was in an attached outhouse which 
> also housed a WC and wash-basin so I found it easy to fit the 
> arrangement up. Where convenient waste piping is present the system is 
> bomb proof.
> Dave Newbitt.
> *From:* Nick Ware via Tech1
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 10:27 PM
> *To:* nickrodger at mac.com
> *Cc:* tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Boilers!
> Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes 
> outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after 
> which, runs horizontally for about 6ft? into drain. That would be fine 
> if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen 
> condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
> I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone 
> might find this useful.
> The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> ? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,
>> but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow
>> to the outside from freezing and getting blocked.
>> Nick Rodger
>> Cameraman (Retired)
>> 07971 007578
>> nickrodger at mac.com
>>
>> Don?t blame me!!
>> I voted Remain ??
>> On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> 
>> wrote:
>> The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine 
>> working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My 
>> neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a 
>> friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not 
>> working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does 
>> it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering 
>> their phones?
>> Any thoughts?
>> N.
>> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From doug at puddifoot.me  Sat Dec 17 05:38:16 2022
From: doug at puddifoot.me (Doug Puddifoot)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 11:38:16 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
Message-ID: <uvur33cvxdvgk4cc5dp7ptnt.1671277096801@email.android.com>

That's interesting Dave. That was the way my boiler was fitted a few years ago, but minus the filter. Obviously something I need to investigate.
Thanks for the tip.

Doug P

On 16 December 2022, at 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

Our former home was on the 700 ft contour line and was ?sun-backed? as the local terminology went ? no sun for the two months over the solstice. We had temperatures down to ?18C so freezing condensate was something guarded against at installation. 

?

There are special traps to suit o/flow diameter pipework which, in conjunction with an in-line cartridge filter arrangement, enable the discharge to be teed into an existing internal waste. The filter is necessary to counteract the potential for the condensate to attack plastic waste plumbing. Our boiler was in an attached outhouse which also housed a WC and wash-basin so I found it easy to fit the arrangement up. Where convenient waste piping is present the system is bomb proof.

?

Dave Newbitt.

?

From: Nick Ware via Tech1 

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 10:27 PM

To: nickrodger at mac.com 

Cc: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 

Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

?

Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after which, runs horizontally for about 6ft? into drain. That would be fine if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone might find this useful. 

The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!

Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad


On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:

? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,? 

?

but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow 

?

to the outside from freezing and getting blocked. 

?

?

Nick Rodger 

Cameraman (Retired) 
07971 007578 
nickrodger at mac.com? 

Don?t blame me!! 
I voted Remain ??

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?

The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
Any thoughts?
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

?

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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Sat Dec 17 06:06:55 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 12:06:55 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <uvur33cvxdvgk4cc5dp7ptnt.1671277096801@email.android.com>
References: <uvur33cvxdvgk4cc5dp7ptnt.1671277096801@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <1F731A4617CA465AA769A3797BDDCF65@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Try here Doug:-

https://www.calmagltd.com/our-domestic-products/acidic-neutralisers/

Best wishes Doug,

Dave.

From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2022 11:38 AM
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

That's interesting Dave. That was the way my boiler was fitted a few years ago, but minus the filter. Obviously something I need to investigate.
Thanks for the tip.

Doug P



On 16 December 2022, at 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:



Our former home was on the 700 ft contour line and was ?sun-backed? as the local terminology went ? no sun for the two months over the solstice. We had temperatures down to ?18C so freezing condensate was something guarded against at installation. 

There are special traps to suit o/flow diameter pipework which, in conjunction with an in-line cartridge filter arrangement, enable the discharge to be teed into an existing internal waste. The filter is necessary to counteract the potential for the condensate to attack plastic waste plumbing. Our boiler was in an attached outhouse which also housed a WC and wash-basin so I found it easy to fit the arrangement up. Where convenient waste piping is present the system is bomb proof.

Dave Newbitt.

From: Nick Ware via Tech1 
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 10:27 PM
To: nickrodger at mac.com 
Cc: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after which, runs horizontally for about 6ft  into drain. That would be fine if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone might find this useful. 
The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!

Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad


  On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:


  ? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,  

  but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow 

  to the outside from freezing and getting blocked. 


  Nick Rodger 
  Cameraman (Retired) 
  07971 007578 
  nickrodger at mac.com  

  Don?t blame me!! 
  I voted Remain ??













  On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

  The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
  Any thoughts?
  N.
  Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
  -- 
  Tech1 mailing list
  Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
  http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 06:14:21 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 12:14:21 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <1F731A4617CA465AA769A3797BDDCF65@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <uvur33cvxdvgk4cc5dp7ptnt.1671277096801@email.android.com>
	<1F731A4617CA465AA769A3797BDDCF65@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <677692b5-eb3f-d4f8-1e5a-c4bcb194f5a0@gmail.com>

Don't think there is any requirement to fit a filter to connect the 
condensate drain to a foul? water drain. Could well be different if you 
wish to use a soak-away.

On 17/12/2022 12:06, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
> Try here Doug:-
> https://www.calmagltd.com/our-domestic-products/acidic-neutralisers/
> Best wishes Doug,
> Dave.
> *From:* Doug Puddifoot via Tech1
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 17, 2022 11:38 AM
> *To:* tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Boilers!
>
> That's interesting Dave. That was the way my boiler was fitted a few 
> years ago, but minus the filter. Obviously something I need to 
> investigate.
> Thanks for the tip.
>
> Doug P
>
>
>
> On 16 December 2022, at 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 
> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Our former home was on the 700 ft contour line and was ?sun-backed? as 
> the local terminology went ? no sun for the two months over the 
> solstice. We had temperatures down to ?18C so freezing condensate was 
> something guarded against at installation.
> There are special traps to suit o/flow diameter pipework which, in 
> conjunction with an in-line cartridge filter arrangement, enable the 
> discharge to be teed into an existing internal waste. The filter is 
> necessary to counteract the potential for the condensate to attack 
> plastic waste plumbing. Our boiler was in an attached outhouse which 
> also housed a WC and wash-basin so I found it easy to fit the 
> arrangement up. Where convenient waste piping is present the system is 
> bomb proof.
> Dave Newbitt.
> *From:* Nick Ware via Tech1
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 10:27 PM
> *To:* nickrodger at mac.com
> *Cc:* tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Boilers!
> Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes 
> outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after 
> which, runs horizontally for about 6ft? into drain. That would be fine 
> if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen 
> condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
> I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone 
> might find this useful.
> The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> ? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,
>> but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow
>> to the outside from freezing and getting blocked.
>> Nick Rodger
>> Cameraman (Retired)
>> 07971 007578
>> nickrodger at mac.com
>>
>> Don?t blame me!!
>> I voted Remain ??
>> On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> 
>> wrote:
>> The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine 
>> working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My 
>> neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a 
>> friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not 
>> working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does 
>> it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering 
>> their phones?
>> Any thoughts?
>> N.
>> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From philiptyler at me.com  Sat Dec 17 06:24:59 2022
From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 12:24:59 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <677692b5-eb3f-d4f8-1e5a-c4bcb194f5a0@gmail.com>
References: <677692b5-eb3f-d4f8-1e5a-c4bcb194f5a0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <385D1268-165C-4F9F-BC70-0A38D7154ADC@me.com>

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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Sat Dec 17 06:28:53 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 12:28:53 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <677692b5-eb3f-d4f8-1e5a-c4bcb194f5a0@gmail.com>
References: <uvur33cvxdvgk4cc5dp7ptnt.1671277096801@email.android.com><1F731A4617CA465AA769A3797BDDCF65@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<677692b5-eb3f-d4f8-1e5a-c4bcb194f5a0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BF3FDDE00CCF4BAF8876B8C163FEF3CE@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Perhaps I shouldn?t have used the word ?necessary? Dave ? I wasn?t suggesting this was regulation required, merely a responsible approach if you?re of a mind set to meet potential trouble half way. We were indeed on a Septic tank (more particularly a powered treatment system) so I was perhaps more concerned than perhaps many town dwellers might be.

Dave N.

From: Dave Plowman via Tech1 
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2022 12:14 PM
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

Don't think there is any requirement to fit a filter to connect the condensate drain to a foul  water drain. Could well be different if you wish to use a soak-away.


On 17/12/2022 12:06, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:

  Try here Doug:-

  https://www.calmagltd.com/our-domestic-products/acidic-neutralisers/

  Best wishes Doug,

  Dave.

  From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1 
  Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2022 11:38 AM
  To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
  Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

  That's interesting Dave. That was the way my boiler was fitted a few years ago, but minus the filter. Obviously something I need to investigate.
  Thanks for the tip.

  Doug P



  On 16 December 2022, at 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote:



  Our former home was on the 700 ft contour line and was ?sun-backed? as the local terminology went ? no sun for the two months over the solstice. We had temperatures down to ?18C so freezing condensate was something guarded against at installation. 

  There are special traps to suit o/flow diameter pipework which, in conjunction with an in-line cartridge filter arrangement, enable the discharge to be teed into an existing internal waste. The filter is necessary to counteract the potential for the condensate to attack plastic waste plumbing. Our boiler was in an attached outhouse which also housed a WC and wash-basin so I found it easy to fit the arrangement up. Where convenient waste piping is present the system is bomb proof.

  Dave Newbitt.

  From: Nick Ware via Tech1 
  Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 10:27 PM
  To: nickrodger at mac.com 
  Cc: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
  Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

  Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after which, runs horizontally for about 6ft  into drain. That would be fine if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
  I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone might find this useful. 
  The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!

  Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad


    On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:


    ? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,  

    but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow 

    to the outside from freezing and getting blocked. 


    Nick Rodger 
    Cameraman (Retired) 
    07971 007578 
    nickrodger at mac.com  

    Don?t blame me!! 
    I voted Remain ??













    On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

    The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
    Any thoughts?
    N.
    Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
    -- 
    Tech1 mailing list
    Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
    http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



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From philiptyler at me.com  Sat Dec 17 06:47:01 2022
From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 12:47:01 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Fwd:  Boilers!
References: <385D1268-165C-4F9F-BC70-0A38D7154ADC@me.com>
Message-ID: <C8CA294C-404B-42AE-8963-7BDF53C0A2C1@me.com>

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From dave.mdv at btinternet.com  Sat Dec 17 07:01:00 2022
From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 13:01:00 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works!
Message-ID: <e8e72526-59b7-a5be-89fa-3fca0c79f46d@btinternet.com>

Higher and higher, 'elf 'n safety, what's that? No safety harnesses to 
be seen! The English must be wimps insisting on such things! Cheers, Dave
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From saranewman at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 17 09:30:44 2022
From: saranewman at hotmail.com (Sara Newman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 15:30:44 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <677692b5-eb3f-d4f8-1e5a-c4bcb194f5a0@gmail.com>
References: <677692b5-eb3f-d4f8-1e5a-c4bcb194f5a0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB9P195MB208462A850464295B416D0C5D0E79@DB9P195MB2084.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Things don?t seem to change When I joined the BBC the topics of conversation in red Tea Bar were Loft conversations Installing CH and fixing the bearings on washing machines ( one other interesting topic was the snip! ?.)  I learnt so much which made me a virtual expert on the first three and improved my building skills and understanding no end Needless to say the fourth item was used later in discussions with female friends about their husbands! Ah Happy Days :) Sara

Sent from my iPhone

On 17 Dec 2022, at 12:15, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?

Don't think there is any requirement to fit a filter to connect the condensate drain to a foul  water drain. Could well be different if you wish to use a soak-away.

On 17/12/2022 12:06, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
Try here Doug:-

https://www.calmagltd.com/our-domestic-products/acidic-neutralisers/<https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.calmagltd.com%2Four-domestic-products%2Facidic-neutralisers%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd738588a65ff4f14dadf08dae028512c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638068761017844098%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=A4JAHegSYvsXmzJX2F6TbcJz%2FPf94dyh6nZ%2FEXku%2F%2F4%3D&reserved=0>

Best wishes Doug,

Dave.

From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2022 11:38 AM
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!


That's interesting Dave. That was the way my boiler was fitted a few years ago, but minus the filter. Obviously something I need to investigate.
Thanks for the tip.

Doug P


On 16 December 2022, at 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk><mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:


Our former home was on the 700 ft contour line and was ?sun-backed? as the local terminology went ? no sun for the two months over the solstice. We had temperatures down to ?18C so freezing condensate was something guarded against at installation.

There are special traps to suit o/flow diameter pipework which, in conjunction with an in-line cartridge filter arrangement, enable the discharge to be teed into an existing internal waste. The filter is necessary to counteract the potential for the condensate to attack plastic waste plumbing. Our boiler was in an attached outhouse which also housed a WC and wash-basin so I found it easy to fit the arrangement up. Where convenient waste piping is present the system is bomb proof.

Dave Newbitt.

From: Nick Ware via Tech1
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 10:27 PM
To: nickrodger at mac.com
Cc: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after which, runs horizontally for about 6ft  into drain. That would be fine if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone might find this useful.
The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:

? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,

but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow

to the outside from freezing and getting blocked.


Nick Rodger
Cameraman (Retired)
07971 007578
nickrodger at mac.com

Don?t blame me!!
I voted Remain ??













On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
Any thoughts?
N.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
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From mibridge at mac.com  Sat Dec 17 11:44:46 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 17:44:46 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Building works!
In-Reply-To: <e8e72526-59b7-a5be-89fa-3fca0c79f46d@btinternet.com>
References: <e8e72526-59b7-a5be-89fa-3fca0c79f46d@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <D5202DF9-104D-4B83-A56E-0B766B1845FA@mac.com>

It looks as though they are creating a Channel
4 ident. 

Mike G

> On 17 Dec 2022, at 13:02, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?Higher and higher, 'elf 'n safety, what's that? No safety harnesses to be seen! The English must be wimps insisting on such things! Cheers, Dave
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From mibridge at mac.com  Sat Dec 17 11:50:26 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 17:50:26 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
Message-ID: <6DAA7FD6-E3C1-4A90-882C-17AD7266B484@mac.com>

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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Sat Dec 17 18:21:09 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 00:21:09 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <6DAA7FD6-E3C1-4A90-882C-17AD7266B484@mac.com>
References: <6DAA7FD6-E3C1-4A90-882C-17AD7266B484@mac.com>
Message-ID: <470C050895524864BCA357576DFF5F1A@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Quite right Mike! It was 16 years ago I was installing this and looking back at my working papers it was indeed the environmental considerations that drove my selection, not the ABS/UPVC susceptibility to attack. As usual one?s memory is not entirely reliable. Our sewage treatment plant was of a grade that permitted discharge to a water course and I didn?t want to be responsible for any pollutant the plant was not designed to deal with.

Dave Newbitt.

From: Mike Giles via Tech1 
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2022 5:50 PM
To: Tech Ops 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

?I?ve Googled boiler condensate and the majority of articles suggest that plastic pipe of the correct diameter will not be affected, but a copper pipe from the boiler is likely to fail within a couple of years. If it goes into a  cast iron drain, that may be also affected over time, unless there is a good deal of flushing from sources upstream of the condensate inlet point. I didn?t find anything about plastic pipe being corroded. 

The greatest concern seemed to be with the combined effect of unfiltered condensate from millions of boilers entering the sewage system and that would seem to be the strongest argument for filters, that or draining to a lime pit in place of household drains. 

Mike G



  On 17 Dec 2022, at 12:14, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

  Don't think there is any requirement to fit a filter to connect the condensate drain to a foul  water drain. Could well be different if you wish to use a soak-away.


  On 17/12/2022 12:06, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:

    Try here Doug:-

    https://www.calmagltd.com/our-domestic-products/acidic-neutralisers/

    Best wishes Doug,

    Dave.

    From: Doug Puddifoot via Tech1
    Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2022 11:38 AM
    To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
    Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

    That's interesting Dave. That was the way my boiler was fitted a few years ago, but minus the filter. Obviously something I need to investigate.
    Thanks for the tip.

    Doug P



    On 16 December 2022, at 23:16, David Newbitt via Tech1 mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk wrote:



    Our former home was on the 700 ft contour line and was ?sun-backed? as the local terminology went ? no sun for the two months over the solstice. We had temperatures down to ?18C so freezing condensate was something guarded against at installation. 

    There are special traps to suit o/flow diameter pipework which, in conjunction with an in-line cartridge filter arrangement, enable the discharge to be teed into an existing internal waste. The filter is necessary to counteract the potential for the condensate to attack plastic waste plumbing. Our boiler was in an attached outhouse which also housed a WC and wash-basin so I found it easy to fit the arrangement up. Where convenient waste piping is present the system is bomb proof.

    Dave Newbitt.

    From: Nick Ware via Tech1
    Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 10:27 PM
    To: nickrodger at mac.com
    Cc: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
    Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

    Fixed! Thanks, Nick, It was exactly that. The condensation pipe goes outside, then down to a right angle join at near ground level, after which, runs horizontally for about 6ft  into drain. That would be fine if there wasn?t a dip in the horizontal run which was full of frozen condensate. Bust the horizontal bit off and some water ran out, now fine.
    I don?t mean to bore anyone with my troubles, but hopefully someone might find this useful. 
    The question is, do I feel charitable enough to try to fix the other six?!

    Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad


      On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:23, Nick Rodger <nickrodger at mac.com> wrote:


      ? I?ve not been party to any previous emails on this subject,  

      but with combo boilers you have to prevent the condensation overflow 

      to the outside from freezing and getting blocked. 


      Nick Rodger 
      Cameraman (Retired) 
      07971 007578 
      nickrodger at mac.com  

      Don?t blame me!! 
      I voted Remain ??













      On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:19, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

      The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
      Any thoughts?
      N.
      Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Sun Dec 18 01:39:31 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 07:39:31 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Mary Rider
Message-ID: <2db05ddb-0565-9ee9-f3d5-521251570aed@amps.net>

If you are still connected on this forum, Mary, please e-mail me at 
pat.heigham at amps.net
with your address, as the one I thought was valid is not responding.

I am trying to contact Marion Paillat (nee Gates) as I get no reply to 
e-mails and the
phone number comes up as 'unrecognised'

Thought you might have up-to-date details, and hoping that she is still 
with us.

Best wishes
Pat Heigham
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From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 14:00:09 2022
From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 20:00:09 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>

I took a card round to a lady near us this morning to be greeted with the story that she?d been without heating for two days because her boiler had stopped working. She called British Gas and one of their subsidiaries came at 10.20pm to fix it. The cause was, guess what, a frozen condensate pipe both the overground and underground bit which was thawed with kettles of hot water, so she said. Whether a more permanent solution was done I?m not sure as the story was a bit muddled. I hope they didn?t charge her an out of hours fee, though they shouldn?t have as she said 24 hour coverage was in her plan,
Geoff

> On 16 Dec 2022, at 20:20, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?The boiler fault I thought I?d fixed is back! The day I got mine working I had a call from No1 son saying his has packed up. My neighbour?s boiler isn?t working. Today, wife, Judi went to visit a friend whose first words were ?keep your coat on, the boiler?s not working?. We know of seven others with the same problem. And why does it always happen at the weekend when no boiler experts are answering their phones?
> Any thoughts?
> N.
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


From mikej at bmanor.co.uk  Sun Dec 18 16:01:08 2022
From: mikej at bmanor.co.uk (Mike Jordan)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 22:01:08 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78463479F4104D11AB19A611136B73B8@Gigabyte>

Loads of condensate pipes are a problem as plumbers install a straight 
length horizontally  possibly before turning a corner to go down and, if 
plastic, a hollow forms in the centre due to the warm water bending the 
plastic which collects water and so freezes and blocks thus stopping the 
condensate water from running downhill to a suitable drain. then of course 
the boiler stops!
Also regulations say that the condensate pipe must NOT empty only public 
highway or wash down a building surface.
I have had to sort several peoples around here which have been badly 
installed.

Mike

-----Original Message----- 
From: Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2022 8:00 PM
To: Tech Ops Group
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

I took a card round to a lady near us this morning to be greeted with the 
story that she?d been without heating for two days because her boiler had 
stopped working. She called British Gas and one of their subsidiaries came 
at 10.20pm to fix it. The cause was, guess what, a frozen condensate pipe 
both the overground and underground bit which was thawed with kettles of hot 
water, so she said. Whether a more permanent solution was done I?m not sure 
as the story was a bit muddled. I hope they didn?t charge her an out of 
hours fee, though they shouldn?t have as she said 24 hour coverage was in 
her plan,
Geoff



From waresound at msn.com  Sun Dec 18 16:37:39 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 22:37:39 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <78463479F4104D11AB19A611136B73B8@Gigabyte>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>
	<78463479F4104D11AB19A611136B73B8@Gigabyte>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB160416D594ED75817F5CB716A7E49@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

I?m glad I raised this topic here and I hope that people have benefitted, or at the very least made a mental note of what to look out for in the future.
I spotted a plea for help on our local community Facebook group and posted the warm kettle of water suggestion. Several people experiencing this problem PM?d me saying how grateful they were I?d saved them emergency call-out costs. Not everyone has insurance that covers this - I do, but it doesn?t mean anyone is available in an emergency.
Emergency seems to be a word that has no meaning anymore.
Cheers,
Nick.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

> On 18 Dec 2022, at 22:04, Mike Jordan via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?Loads of condensate pipes are a problem as plumbers install a straight length horizontally  possibly before turning a corner to go down and, if plastic, a hollow forms in the centre due to the warm water bending the plastic which collects water and so freezes and blocks thus stopping the condensate water from running downhill to a suitable drain. then of course the boiler stops!
> Also regulations say that the condensate pipe must NOT empty only public highway or wash down a building surface.
> I have had to sort several peoples around here which have been badly installed.
> 
> Mike
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1
> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2022 8:00 PM
> To: Tech Ops Group
> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!
> 
> I took a card round to a lady near us this morning to be greeted with the story that she?d been without heating for two days because her boiler had stopped working. She called British Gas and one of their subsidiaries came at 10.20pm to fix it. The cause was, guess what, a frozen condensate pipe both the overground and underground bit which was thawed with kettles of hot water, so she said. Whether a more permanent solution was done I?m not sure as the story was a bit muddled. I hope they didn?t charge her an out of hours fee, though they shouldn?t have as she said 24 hour coverage was in her plan,
> Geoff
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

From pat.heigham at amps.net  Mon Dec 19 04:18:55 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 10:18:55 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ff10ca30-4cec-79d3-b7f0-2e9daf3028b2@amps.net>

If 24 hour coverage was part of her policy deal, why wait for two days 
before calling the engineer?
I subscribe to British Gas Homecare, apart from an annual service, they 
turn up the same day for
a problem with the system.

Pat

On 18/12/2022 20:00, Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 wrote:
> I took a card round to a lady near us this morning to be greeted with the story that she?d been without heating for two days because her boiler had stopped working. She called British Gas and one of their subsidiaries came at 10.20pm to fix it. The cause was, guess what, a frozen condensate pipe both the overground and underground bit which was thawed with kettles of hot water, so she said. Whether a more permanent solution was done I?m not sure as the story was a bit muddled. I hope they didn?t charge her an out of hours fee, though they shouldn?t have as she said 24 hour coverage was in her plan,
> Geoff
>
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From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Mon Dec 19 04:29:02 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 10:29:02 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <AM9P191MB160416D594ED75817F5CB716A7E49@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>
	<78463479F4104D11AB19A611136B73B8@Gigabyte>
	<AM9P191MB160416D594ED75817F5CB716A7E49@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <C77DB72D-A25D-4C53-8710-63BA0B7C301D@icloud.com>

British Gas actually sent put emails warning people about this problem and advising how to deal with it.

> On 18 Dec 2022, at 22:37, Nick Ware via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I?m glad I raised this topic here and I hope that people have benefitted, or at the very least made a mental note of what to look out for in the future.
> I spotted a plea for help on our local community Facebook group and posted the warm kettle of water suggestion. Several people experiencing this problem PM?d me saying how grateful they were I?d saved them emergency call-out costs. Not everyone has insurance that covers this - I do, but it doesn?t mean anyone is available in an emergency.
> Emergency seems to be a word that has no meaning anymore.
> Cheers,
> Nick.
> Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On 18 Dec 2022, at 22:04, Mike Jordan via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Loads of condensate pipes are a problem as plumbers install a straight length horizontally  possibly before turning a corner to go down and, if plastic, a hollow forms in the centre due to the warm water bending the plastic which collects water and so freezes and blocks thus stopping the condensate water from running downhill to a suitable drain. then of course the boiler stops!
>> Also regulations say that the condensate pipe must NOT empty only public highway or wash down a building surface.
>> I have had to sort several peoples around here which have been badly installed.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1
>> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2022 8:00 PM
>> To: Tech Ops Group
>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!
>> 
>> I took a card round to a lady near us this morning to be greeted with the story that she?d been without heating for two days because her boiler had stopped working. She called British Gas and one of their subsidiaries came at 10.20pm to fix it. The cause was, guess what, a frozen condensate pipe both the overground and underground bit which was thawed with kettles of hot water, so she said. Whether a more permanent solution was done I?m not sure as the story was a bit muddled. I hope they didn?t charge her an out of hours fee, though they shouldn?t have as she said 24 hour coverage was in her plan,
>> Geoff
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 04:35:28 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 10:35:28 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <78463479F4104D11AB19A611136B73B8@Gigabyte>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>
	<78463479F4104D11AB19A611136B73B8@Gigabyte>
Message-ID: <ea72efac-b711-c818-682c-61d3124b163c@gmail.com>

When I changed my boiler some 14 years ago, it wasn't something I'd lots 
of experience doing, so followed the instructions. Especially for the 
bits which were new to me, like the condensate drain. Here is a copy and 
paste of the relevant bit:-

*******************

Routing
The condensate pipe can terminate into any one of the following areas.
It is always best practice to terminate the condensate pipe via an 
internal waste system.
? The pipe run should take the shortest practical route with a downward 
slope of at least
2.5 ? (4.5 mm/m)
? The external pipework should be insulated to prevent freezing
? The pipework should terminate as close as possible to the ground or 
drain, whilst still
allowing the condensate to discharge safely
? The condensate pipe must be of non corrosive material, preferably plastic
Note: ferrous materials or copper must not be used.

*****************

But I don't follow that to the letter. My boiler is on the first floor, 
and a the bathroom external waste very close by. So tapped into that, so 
the external run of the condensate drain only a metre or so.

On 18/12/2022 22:01, Mike Jordan via Tech1 wrote:
> Loads of condensate pipes are a problem as plumbers install a straight 
> length horizontally? possibly before turning a corner to go down and, 
> if plastic, a hollow forms in the centre due to the warm water bending 
> the plastic which collects water and so freezes and blocks thus 
> stopping the condensate water from running downhill to a suitable 
> drain. then of course the boiler stops!
> Also regulations say that the condensate pipe must NOT empty only 
> public highway or wash down a building surface.
> I have had to sort several peoples around here which have been badly 
> installed.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1
> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2022 8:00 PM
> To: Tech Ops Group
> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!
>
> I took a card round to a lady near us this morning to be greeted with 
> the story that she?d been without heating for two days because her 
> boiler had stopped working. She called British Gas and one of their 
> subsidiaries came at 10.20pm to fix it. The cause was, guess what, a 
> frozen condensate pipe both the overground and underground bit which 
> was thawed with kettles of hot water, so she said. Whether a more 
> permanent solution was done I?m not sure as the story was a bit 
> muddled. I hope they didn?t charge her an out of hours fee, though 
> they shouldn?t have as she said 24 hour coverage was in her plan,
> Geoff
>
>


From Waresound at msn.com  Mon Dec 19 05:30:43 2022
From: Waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 11:30:43 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <C77DB72D-A25D-4C53-8710-63BA0B7C301D@icloud.com>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>
	<78463479F4104D11AB19A611136B73B8@Gigabyte>
	<AM9P191MB160416D594ED75817F5CB716A7E49@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<C77DB72D-A25D-4C53-8710-63BA0B7C301D@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB160494022CBAB6EE968C76B4A7E59@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

We?re not with British Gas. We got a better deal for gas and electricity (brought forward from our previous house) with Bulb. No longer quite so attractive now though, since Bulb is now Octopus and the whole industry has gone tits-up. 
Cheers,
Nick.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

> On 19 Dec 2022, at 10:29, Graeme Wall <graeme.wall at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> ?British Gas actually sent put emails warning people about this problem and advising how to deal with it.

From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Mon Dec 19 09:57:22 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:57:22 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Fw: Frank Whittle and Power Jets Event
Message-ID: <963AE4E00E2D47DAB97E152EFB4B9063@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Frank Whittle and Power Jets EventForwarding this as of possible interest ref recent postings.


Dave Newbitt.


From: Vulcan to the Sky 
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 3:31 PM
To: =?utf-8?Q??= 
Subject: Frank Whittle and Power Jets Event

A Talk by Nicholas Jones 
                       
                 
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                                Frank Whittle and Power Jets
                                A Talk by Nicholas Jones 
                             
                       
                             
                       
                             
                       
                 
                             
                       

                                Join us at our Stratford-Upon-Avon Central Stores on 14 January to hear Nicholas Jones talking about the life of Sir Frank Whittle

                                   
                             
                       

                                Frank Whittle and Power Jets - A talk by Nicholas Jones
                                 
                                Date - 14/01/2023

                                Time - 2:00pm - 4:00pm

                                Venue - Stratford-Upon-Avon Central Stores

                                Ticket Price - ?15

                                There will be free light refreshments: tea, coffee, soft drinks and biscuits.

                                   
                             
                       
                              Book Your Place Now
                                
                       
                             
                       
                                
                       

                                Sir Frank Whittle
                                The Father of the Jet Engine

                                   
                             
                       
                              Sir Frank Whittle's invention of the jet engine makes him the most influential Briton of the last century after Churchill. Not only did his vision change the face of the Earth, it enabled millions of us to see what it actually looks like.

                              "The logic that leads to invention often only becomes apparent after the product is seen to work" says Nicholas. "Between the wars, several boffins pondered how the gas turbine might be applied to flight ? but it was only Frank Whittle, a young RAF pilot with an inquisitive mind, who made this idea a reality". The question is, how did he do so?

                              In this talk, we'll learn how Sir Frank conceived every form of gas turbine jet engine we know today when he was only in his twenties. No mean feat for a poor, working class boy from Warwickshire who was rejected by the RAF for being too small. The fact he then did a series of stretch exercises to get in on a second application gives a clue as to how he would achieve later greatness.

                              The most astonishing claim about Whittle's work was made by Hans von Ohain, who developed an unsuccessful German jet engine at Heinkel after studying Whittle's first turbojet patent. Nicholas recalls "When I met Sir Frank he mentioned how von Ohain said to him 'if your government had taken you seriously at the time, there would never have been a Battle of Britain!', when they met in post-war USA". It's a line he'll explore at this talk: was there any reason why an aircraft like the Gloster Meteor could not have been ready by 1940, to meet (and repel) astonished Luftwaffe pilots crossing the Channel?

                              For Frank Whittle, the story has a happy ending in one sense: he lived to see his own legacy. He loved to fly in Concorde ? and to watch from the jump seat as his son flew a 747 into Kai Tak as a Cathay Pacific pilot. Yet how did he realise his vision of jet-propelled aviation, as first conceived by him in 1929, where others merely thought about it? 

                              There are two key reasons, which Nicholas will reveal at this event.
                             
                       
                             
                       

                                Plan Your Journey

                                   
                             
                       
                              The "Frank Whittle and Power Jets" talk is being held at our Stratford-Upon-Avon Central Stores.

                              Unit 13, Cadle Pool Farm
                              The Ridgeway
                              Stratford upon Avon
                              CV37 9RE
                              01789 293555
                             
                       
                                
                       
                              There are limited places for the "Frank Whittle and Power Jets" talk

                              Don't miss out.
                             
                       

                                If you have any queries please call our
                                Central Stores: 01789 293 555
                                Mon - Fri: 10.00hrs - 16.00hrs

                                   
                             
                       
                             
                       
                             
                       
                              Book Your Place Now
                                
                       
                             
                       
                              Thank you for your continued support of Vulcan XH558. All proceeds from events like this go towards helping to safeguard her.

                              The Vulcan to the Sky Team
                             
                       
                             
                       
                 
                              Contact Us:
                              Email: bmailto:bobjackson at vulcantothesky.org?subject=Event%3A%20Frank%20Whittle%20Talk
                              Tel: 01789 293 555
                              Address: 
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                              United Kingdom

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From gary_critcher at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 19 10:23:18 2022
From: gary_critcher at yahoo.com (Gary Critcher)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 16:23:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Tech1] Graphic!
References: <1827518094.2849513.1671466998218.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1827518094.2849513.1671466998218@mail.yahoo.com>

This caption was 'live' just now on News 24.?For crying out loud, couldn't it have been taken down and changed? It's not that difficult for crying out loud.
? ?Gary
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From doug at puddifoot.me  Mon Dec 19 11:48:20 2022
From: doug at puddifoot.me (Doug Puddifoot)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 17:48:20 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <ff10ca30-4cec-79d3-b7f0-2e9daf3028b2@amps.net>
References: <AS8P191MB1606F6A67C82E719BC7B597CA7E69@AS8P191MB1606.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM><7CA8953B-1E48-49E1-B3C6-D0E553B74E47@gmail.com>
	<ff10ca30-4cec-79d3-b7f0-2e9daf3028b2@amps.net>
Message-ID: <92A9C201047246EFB9F76ADFB4E734BB@NewOffice>

The thing to be aware of with BG is the magic phrase ?Powerflush? We were 
the second owners of a newish house, and carried on the BG breakdown cover 
which the house had since being built. Eventually the hot water heat 
exchanger furred up. BG announced that the system had not been installed 
properly, and needed a powerflush. This very mention of the phrase by the 
engineer immediately absolved them from any further responsibility for the 
cost of the repairs. They wanted to charge ?800 for the powerflush, and a 
further ?750 for the repair. If we did not have the powerflush they would 
accept no further responsibility for the system. We then asked Worcester 
Bosch, the maker, about repairs. Their quote for a standard repair was ?275, 
for which they would replace up to three major components. Needless to say 
we went with that and took out their breakdown cover, considerably cheaper 
than BG. The boiler soldiered on for many more years, even though it had not 
had a powerflush until we decided a more efficient condensing boiler would 
be more economic. I know that of the eight houses on our estate, we are the 
only ones who were not conned into paying ?800 for a flush. I have also just 
had a look at their current conditions of service, and lost count of the 
number of times ?Powerflush? is mentioned.
Doug

From: Pat Heigham via Tech1
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 10:18 AM
To: Geoffrey Hawkes ; Tech Ops Group
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Boilers!

If 24 hour coverage was part of her policy deal, why wait for two days 
before calling the engineer?
I subscribe to British Gas Homecare, apart from an annual service, they turn 
up the same day for
a problem with the system.


Pat


On 18/12/2022 20:00, Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 wrote:

I took a card round to a lady near us this morning to be greeted with the 
story that she?d been without heating for two days because her boiler had 
stopped working. She called British Gas and one of their subsidiaries came 
at 10.20pm to fix it. The cause was, guess what, a frozen condensate pipe 
both the overground and underground bit which was thawed with kettles of hot 
water, so she said. Whether a more permanent solution was done I?m not sure 
as the story was a bit muddled. I hope they didn?t charge her an out of 
hours fee, though they shouldn?t have as she said 24 hour coverage was in 
her plan,
Geoff



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From brian.curtis.bluesky at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 12:20:31 2022
From: brian.curtis.bluesky at gmail.com (Brian Curtis)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 18:20:31 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Graphic!
In-Reply-To: <1827518094.2849513.1671466998218@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1827518094.2849513.1671466998218.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
	<1827518094.2849513.1671466998218@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>

Can't even rely on the BBC for good English these days!


On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 16:24, Gary Critcher via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
wrote:

> This caption was 'live' just now on News 24.
>  For crying out loud, couldn't it have been taken down and changed? It's
> not that difficult for crying out loud.
>
>    Gary
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 12:27:51 2022
From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 18:27:51 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Boilers!
In-Reply-To: <ff10ca30-4cec-79d3-b7f0-2e9daf3028b2@amps.net>
References: <ff10ca30-4cec-79d3-b7f0-2e9daf3028b2@amps.net>
Message-ID: <EFC423AF-15C5-4425-9DD8-CA18061CE9E8@gmail.com>

I can?t answer that but will ask next time I see her,

Geoff

> On 19 Dec 2022, at 10:18, Pat Heigham <pat.heigham at amps.net> wrote:
> 
> ?
> If 24 hour coverage was part of her policy deal, why wait for two days before calling the engineer?
> I subscribe to British Gas Homecare, apart from an annual service, they turn up the same day for
> a problem with the system.
> 
> Pat
> 
> On 18/12/2022 20:00, Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 wrote:
>> I took a card round to a lady near us this morning to be greeted with the story that she?d been without heating for two days because her boiler had stopped working. She called British Gas and one of their subsidiaries came at 10.20pm to fix it. The cause was, guess what, a frozen condensate pipe both the overground and underground bit which was thawed with kettles of hot water, so she said. Whether a more permanent solution was done I?m not sure as the story was a bit muddled. I hope they didn?t charge her an out of hours fee, though they shouldn?t have as she said 24 hour coverage was in her plan,
>> Geoff
>> 
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From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 13:02:30 2022
From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 19:02:30 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>

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From peter.neill at icloud.com  Mon Dec 19 14:44:29 2022
From: peter.neill at icloud.com (Peter Neill)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 20:44:29 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Did you send this card?
Message-ID: <D6B324D7-30FA-4449-A003-561D189B9A11@icloud.com>

Pat Bunce is trying to identify the sender of this card. Was it you?
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Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for typos and autocorruptions. 

From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Tue Dec 20 06:09:48 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 12:09:48 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

I find it difficult to know if the substantial removal of emphasis on the correct use of English is anything I have a right to feel aggrieved about. The debate has raged for as long as any of us can remember against a background of ever greater departure from set rules designed to promote clarity in written communication and avoidance of ambiguity.

I would certainly not advocate discarding written work from intelligent people on grounds of poor English (as would once have been common practice) but I don?t think such people make good journalists unless effective editorial oversight tidies up their offerings. A fair slice of published copy as presented in newspapers and magazines ranges from sloppy to laughable.

A couple of thoughts closely related to the mantra that a lie, told often enough, becomes the truth. What is classified as evolution of language is often merely the wildfire speed at which errors spread (I should of known better etc.)

When, at school, we were introduced to the concept of unseasonal weather, it was emphasised that the wholly erroneous substitution of unseasonable was laughable since, if it meant anything at all, it was that the weather couldn?t have salt and pepper applied. One might think the last bastion of correctness in this instance might be weather forecasters, but no, almost all of them use the incorrect word. The BBC?s TV ad. trumpeting the weather app featured at one time a mobile ?phone screen displaying ?unseasonable?.

At school we were warned against saying ?smarrawichoo? and the like, very particularly because sloppy speech leads to sloppy writing. The Americans have much to answer for in this regard eg. innernational. A high proportion of folk who make up our society talk a lot but write very little. When they do write (encouraged by far too much ?have your say? in my opinion) it is hardly surprising that what results resembles a phonetic representation of the way they speak their words.

There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be correct.

Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?

Dave Newbitt.



From: Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 7:02 PM
To: Brian Curtis 
Cc: dave.mdv via Tech1 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language

You?re right there. Regrettably it?s become fashionable to drop the letter ?g?) at the end of words ending in ?ing? both on radio where Caris Matthew?s on R4s ?Add to Playlist? is one of the chief and for me the most irritating culprits - as is one in particular of the BBC1 continuity announcers who consistently does the same. I?d like to know what they do when helping their children to read. Do they tell them that in speaking our funny old language the ?g? is silent, whereas it has to be included when spelling or writing it, or what?  

Geoff


  On 19 Dec 2022, at 18:21, Brian Curtis via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:


  ? 
  Can't even rely on the BBC for good English these days! 


  On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 16:24, Gary Critcher via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

    This caption was 'live' just now on News 24.
    For crying out loud, couldn't it have been taken down and changed? It's not that difficult for crying out loud.

       Gary
    -- 
    Tech1 mailing list
    Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
    http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

  -- 
  Tech1 mailing list
  Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 06:44:41 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 12:44:41 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Stonehenge syndrome.
Message-ID: <6d1c2f32-fa53-7212-4eba-7779c87c4efc@gmail.com>

Once in blue moon, when the sun is shining and in exactly the right 
position, my house reminds me where I live. Very useful as you get 
older. But then forget what you went?upstairs?for.
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From paul at pgtmedia.co.uk  Tue Dec 20 07:41:46 2022
From: paul at pgtmedia.co.uk (Paul Thackray)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 13:41:46 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Stonehenge syndrome.
In-Reply-To: <6d1c2f32-fa53-7212-4eba-7779c87c4efc@gmail.com>
References: <6d1c2f32-fa53-7212-4eba-7779c87c4efc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01a201d91478$cdb60730$69221590$@pgtmedia.co.uk>

Hi Dave,

I guess you go up stairs at number 16 but when you come down you are at number 91? No wonder you find it confusing!

Paul

Paul Thackray
PGT Media Consulting Ltd.
07802 243979
Mail; paul at pgtmedia.co.uk 
Web; http://www.pgtmedia.co.uk
Linkedin;   http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/paul-thackray/19/379/746
IMDB; http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1488554/

-----Original Message-----
From: Tech1 <tech1-bounces at tech-ops.co.uk> On Behalf Of Dave Plowman via Tech1
Sent: 20 December 2022 12:45
To: TechOps <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
Subject: [Tech1] Stonehenge syndrome.

Once in blue moon, when the sun is shining and in exactly the right position, my house reminds me where I live. Very useful as you get older. But then forget what you went upstairs for.



From pat.heigham at amps.net  Tue Dec 20 08:30:47 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 14:30:47 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
	<A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <68330e91-5807-2a02-15ab-d41a9672f1e6@amps.net>

There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' with 
'hatred'!
I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set 
geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use 
perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's programme.
It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of "Juddges".

Pat

(Bah! Humbug!)

On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all 
> these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic 
> stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever 
> present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would 
> miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense 
> would be correct.
> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to 
> an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what 
> is the point of banging on?
> Dave Newbitt.
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From alanaudio at me.com  Tue Dec 20 08:47:41 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 14:47:41 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <68330e91-5807-2a02-15ab-d41a9672f1e6@amps.net>
References: <68330e91-5807-2a02-15ab-d41a9672f1e6@amps.net>
Message-ID: <1892FD7F-519A-4FE6-9459-6A00ADBC7A20@me.com>

I take exactly the opposite view. Regional accents, even ones I don?t particularly care for,  should be celebrated and treated as the equal of any other accent.  The BBC is a national broadcaster, not a London broadcaster.

I would point to people such as Wilfred Pickles, John Arlott, Terry Wogan and Huw Edwards who over the years have all had strong regional accents and have been widely accepted as authoritative broadcasting voices. 

Alan


> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:31, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' with 'hatred'!
> I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's programme.
> It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of "Juddges".
> 
> Pat
> 
> (Bah! Humbug!)
> 
> On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
>>  
>> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be correct.
>>  
>> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?
>>  
>> Dave Newbitt.
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Tue Dec 20 08:58:41 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 14:58:41 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <1892FD7F-519A-4FE6-9459-6A00ADBC7A20@me.com>
References: <68330e91-5807-2a02-15ab-d41a9672f1e6@amps.net>
	<1892FD7F-519A-4FE6-9459-6A00ADBC7A20@me.com>
Message-ID: <18acbf0f-2380-074f-c9ee-dbdced77cf05@amps.net>

Here are the lyrics to the cleverly written song from My Fair Lady.

Pat

On 20/12/2022 14:47, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
> I take exactly the opposite view. Regional accents, even ones I don?t 
> particularly care for, ?should be celebrated and treated as the equal 
> of any other accent. ?The BBC is a national broadcaster, not a London 
> broadcaster.
>
> I would point to people such as Wilfred Pickles, John Arlott, Terry 
> Wogan and Huw Edwards who over the years have all had strong regional 
> accents and have been widely accepted as authoritative broadcasting 
> voices.
>
> Alan
>
>
>> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:31, Pat Heigham via Tech1 
>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' 
>> with 'hatred'!
>> I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set 
>> geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use 
>> perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's 
>> programme.
>> It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of 
>> "Juddges".
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> (Bah! Humbug!)
>>
>> On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
>>> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all 
>>> these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic 
>>> stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever 
>>> present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would 
>>> miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense 
>>> would be correct.
>>> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage 
>>> to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, 
>>> what is the point of banging on?
>>> Dave Newbitt.
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From mibridge at mac.com  Tue Dec 20 09:02:48 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 15:02:48 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <1892FD7F-519A-4FE6-9459-6A00ADBC7A20@me.com>
References: <1892FD7F-519A-4FE6-9459-6A00ADBC7A20@me.com>
Message-ID: <E49BF3B3-F8D3-491E-8936-962F9A6F8DF8@mac.com>

To go back a couple of comments - do keep banging on, Dave! I do like a good whinge and poor use of language and grammar are amongst my pet hates. I frequently cringe at misplaced punctuation and mis-pronounced ?worms? to quote the great Mr Barker! 

As to regional accents, I love some, can tolerate a few others and thoroughly dislike a small number. But even within accents that I like, I hate deliberate exaggeration when it is not for comedic effect. When I was still a West Country junior school boy, my prospective brother-in-law from Co Durham could scarcely understand a word I said - I didn?t have the same trouble interpreting his quite broad Darlington accent. But eventually both he and I ended up speaking proper, or I like to think so!

Mike G

> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:48, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> I take exactly the opposite view. Regional accents, even ones I don?t particularly care for,  should be celebrated and treated as the equal of any other accent.  The BBC is a national broadcaster, not a London broadcaster.
> 
> I would point to people such as Wilfred Pickles, John Arlott, Terry Wogan and Huw Edwards who over the years have all had strong regional accents and have been widely accepted as authoritative broadcasting voices. 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
>>> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:31, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' with 'hatred'!
>> I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's programme.
>> It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of "Juddges".
>> 
>> Pat
>> 
>> (Bah! Humbug!)
>> 
>> On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
>>>  
>>> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be correct.
>>>  
>>> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?
>>>  
>>> Dave Newbitt.
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From mibridge at mac.com  Tue Dec 20 09:04:24 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 15:04:24 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Stonehenge syndrome.
In-Reply-To: <6d1c2f32-fa53-7212-4eba-7779c87c4efc@gmail.com>
References: <6d1c2f32-fa53-7212-4eba-7779c87c4efc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1277D7BA-3003-49DC-9B94-6B684E8098A9@mac.com>

I suppose that when you fall down the stairs you conclude that you live at 91. 

Mike G

> On 20 Dec 2022, at 12:45, Dave Plowman via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?Once in blue moon, when the sun is shining and in exactly the right position, my house reminds me where I live. Very useful as you get older. But then forget what you went upstairs for.
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> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

From ohbytheway.tv at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 09:45:46 2022
From: ohbytheway.tv at gmail.com (ohbytheway.tv at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 15:45:46 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <E49BF3B3-F8D3-491E-8936-962F9A6F8DF8@mac.com>
References: <1892FD7F-519A-4FE6-9459-6A00ADBC7A20@me.com>
	<E49BF3B3-F8D3-491E-8936-962F9A6F8DF8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <014a01d9148a$21281e60$63785b20$@gmail.com>

I think Pat meant Received Pronunciation but he just wanted to rant against people who speak differently to him, however misguided he is.

 

From: Tech1 <tech1-bounces at tech-ops.co.uk> On Behalf Of Mike Giles via Tech1
Sent: 20 December 2022 15:03
To: Tech Ops <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language

 

To go back a couple of comments - do keep banging on, Dave! I do like a good whinge and poor use of language and grammar are amongst my pet hates. I frequently cringe at misplaced punctuation and mis-pronounced ?worms? to quote the great Mr Barker! 

 

As to regional accents, I love some, can tolerate a few others and thoroughly dislike a small number. But even within accents that I like, I hate deliberate exaggeration when it is not for comedic effect. When I was still a West Country junior school boy, my prospective brother-in-law from Co Durham could scarcely understand a word I said - I didn?t have the same trouble interpreting his quite broad Darlington accent. But eventually both he and I ended up speaking proper, or I like to think so!

 

Mike G





On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:48, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk <mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> > wrote:

?

I take exactly the opposite view. Regional accents, even ones I don?t particularly care for,  should be celebrated and treated as the equal of any other accent.  The BBC is a national broadcaster, not a London broadcaster.

 

I would point to people such as Wilfred Pickles, John Arlott, Terry Wogan and Huw Edwards who over the years have all had strong regional accents and have been widely accepted as authoritative broadcasting voices. 

 

Alan

 





On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:31, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk <mailto:tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> > wrote:

? 

There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' with 'hatred'!
I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's programme.
It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of "Juddges".

Pat

(Bah! Humbug!)

On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:

 

There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be correct.

 

Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?

 

Dave Newbitt.

-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk <mailto:Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> 
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Tue Dec 20 09:46:55 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 15:46:55 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <E49BF3B3-F8D3-491E-8936-962F9A6F8DF8@mac.com>
References: <1892FD7F-519A-4FE6-9459-6A00ADBC7A20@me.com>
	<E49BF3B3-F8D3-491E-8936-962F9A6F8DF8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <B1408C66C9894AB6A9D3762ED4EEDE6C@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Could I add to your list Alan all of whom I happily go with albeit in Wilfred Pickles case a man whose surface geniality sometimes hid a curmudgeonly streak? As a Yorkshire born lad I can say that, one leg of the ancestry from up in the North York Moors where they wear troowsers.
Bill McLaren ? not only in my view the best commentator of them all but possessed of an accent that stirred as much as the commentary. Not especially emphasised but pure magic.

Dave Newbitt.

From: Mike Giles via Tech1 
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2022 3:02 PM
To: Tech Ops 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language

To go back a couple of comments - do keep banging on, Dave! I do like a good whinge and poor use of language and grammar are amongst my pet hates. I frequently cringe at misplaced punctuation and mis-pronounced ?worms? to quote the great Mr Barker! 

As to regional accents, I love some, can tolerate a few others and thoroughly dislike a small number. But even within accents that I like, I hate deliberate exaggeration when it is not for comedic effect. When I was still a West Country junior school boy, my prospective brother-in-law from Co Durham could scarcely understand a word I said - I didn?t have the same trouble interpreting his quite broad Darlington accent. But eventually both he and I ended up speaking proper, or I like to think so!

Mike G


  On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:48, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:


  ? 
  I take exactly the opposite view. Regional accents, even ones I don?t particularly care for,  should be celebrated and treated as the equal of any other accent.  The BBC is a national broadcaster, not a London broadcaster.

  I would point to people such as Wilfred Pickles, John Arlott, Terry Wogan and Huw Edwards who over the years have all had strong regional accents and have been widely accepted as authoritative broadcasting voices. 

  Alan



    On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:31, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:


    ? 
    There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' with 'hatred'!
    I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's programme.
    It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of "Juddges".

    Pat

    (Bah! Humbug!)


    On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:


      There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be correct.

      Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?

      Dave Newbitt.
    -- 
    Tech1 mailing list
    Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
    http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

  -- 
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From david.jasma at sky.com  Tue Dec 20 10:00:13 2022
From: david.jasma at sky.com (david.jasma)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:00:13 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <E49BF3B3-F8D3-491E-8936-962F9A6F8DF8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <640657628.264301.1671552022256@sky.com>

When I was at grammar school in the 50s, the headmaster was Scottish and pronounced 'J' as 'Jie' rather than 'Jay', which we all found amusing.It wasn't until I met and subsequently married a Scottish lass, that I found out that 'Jie' was the Scottish way of pronouncing the letter.It's just one of number of differences between pronunciation. Another is?asking questions, a good example being - if I am asked 'where do you stay?' I give my address or local area, as this is what is being asked.I've now lived north of the border nearly 20 years, so I have at least got used to the accent!Dave BuckleySent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------From: Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> Date: 20/12/2022  15:03  (GMT+00:00) To: Tech Ops <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language To go back a couple of comments - do keep banging on, Dave! I do like a good whinge and poor use of language and grammar are amongst my pet hates. I frequently cringe at misplaced punctuation and mis-pronounced ?worms? to quote the great Mr Barker!?As to regional accents, I love some, can tolerate a few others and thoroughly dislike a small number. But even within accents that I like, I hate deliberate exaggeration when it is not for comedic effect. When I was still a West Country junior school boy, my prospective brother-in-law from Co Durham could scarcely understand a word I said - I didn?t have the same trouble interpreting his quite broad Darlington accent. But eventually both he and I ended up speaking proper, or I like to think so!Mike GOn 20 Dec 2022, at 14:48, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:?I take exactly the opposite view. Regional accents, even ones I don?t particularly care for, ?should be celebrated and treated as the equal of any other accent. ?The BBC is a national broadcaster, not a London broadcaster.I would point to people such as Wilfred Pickles, John Arlott, Terry Wogan and Huw Edwards who over the years have all had strong regional accents and have been widely accepted as authoritative broadcasting voices.?AlanOn 20 Dec 2022, at 14:31, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:?
  
    
  
  
    There was mention of dialect, but in my case,
        replace 'affection' with 'hatred'!
        I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set
        geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to
        use perceived pronounciation when fronting a national
        broadcaster's programme.
        It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of
        "Juddges".
    Pat
    (Bah! Humbug!)
    
    On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via
      Tech1 wrote:
    
    
      
        
          ?
          There has always been amongst academics a proportion who
            embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who
            don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right
            and of course there is the ever present affection which most
            of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s
            talking in the present tense where the past tense would be
            correct.
          ?
          Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in
            common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In
            which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?
          ?
          Dave Newbitt.
        
      
    
  

-- Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk-- Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Tue Dec 20 10:05:23 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:05:23 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <640657628.264301.1671552022256@sky.com>
References: <640657628.264301.1671552022256@sky.com>
Message-ID: <1AC8C88B-C6C9-4E44-8EC5-BC74AFF78C89@sky.com>

My favourite winge is about well paid tv presenters mis pronouncing nuclear.
It?s New Clear not New Queue Lar!

Sent from my iPad

> On 20 Dec 2022, at 16:01, david.jasma via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> When I was at grammar school in the 50s, the headmaster was Scottish and pronounced 'J' as 'Jie' rather than 'Jay', which we all found amusing.
> It wasn't until I met and subsequently married a Scottish lass, that I found out that 'Jie' was the Scottish way of pronouncing the letter.
> It's just one of number of differences between pronunciation. Another is
>  asking questions, a good example being - if I am asked 'where do you stay?' I give my address or local area, as this is what is being asked.
> I've now lived north of the border nearly 20 years, so I have at least got used to the accent!
> Dave Buckley
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy
> 
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> Date: 20/12/2022 15:03 (GMT+00:00)
> To: Tech Ops <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
> 
> To go back a couple of comments - do keep banging on, Dave! I do like a good whinge and poor use of language and grammar are amongst my pet hates. I frequently cringe at misplaced punctuation and mis-pronounced ?worms? to quote the great Mr Barker! 
> 
> As to regional accents, I love some, can tolerate a few others and thoroughly dislike a small number. But even within accents that I like, I hate deliberate exaggeration when it is not for comedic effect. When I was still a West Country junior school boy, my prospective brother-in-law from Co Durham could scarcely understand a word I said - I didn?t have the same trouble interpreting his quite broad Darlington accent. But eventually both he and I ended up speaking proper, or I like to think so!
> 
> Mike G
> 
>>> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:48, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> I take exactly the opposite view. Regional accents, even ones I don?t particularly care for,  should be celebrated and treated as the equal of any other accent.  The BBC is a national broadcaster, not a London broadcaster.
>> 
>> I would point to people such as Wilfred Pickles, John Arlott, Terry Wogan and Huw Edwards who over the years have all had strong regional accents and have been widely accepted as authoritative broadcasting voices. 
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>>>> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:31, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> 
>>> ?
>>> There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' with 'hatred'!
>>> I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's programme.
>>> It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of "Juddges".
>>> 
>>> Pat
>>> 
>>> (Bah! Humbug!)
>>> 
>>> On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be correct.
>>>>  
>>>> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?
>>>>  
>>>> Dave Newbitt.
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Tue Dec 20 10:07:39 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:07:39 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <1AC8C88B-C6C9-4E44-8EC5-BC74AFF78C89@sky.com>
References: <640657628.264301.1671552022256@sky.com>
	<1AC8C88B-C6C9-4E44-8EC5-BC74AFF78C89@sky.com>
Message-ID: <6E4AC6CE-F9C2-4793-8484-C4D2DBC691CB@icloud.com>


But that?s how Dubya pronounced it, must be right.

> On 20 Dec 2022, at 16:05, B Wilkinson via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> My favourite winge is about well paid tv presenters mis pronouncing nuclear.
> It?s New Clear not New Queue Lar!
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On 20 Dec 2022, at 16:01, david.jasma via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?When I was at grammar school in the 50s, the headmaster was Scottish and pronounced 'J' as 'Jie' rather than 'Jay', which we all found amusing.
>> It wasn't until I met and subsequently married a Scottish lass, that I found out that 'Jie' was the Scottish way of pronouncing the letter.
>> It's just one of number of differences between pronunciation. Another is
>>  asking questions, a good example being - if I am asked 'where do you stay?' I give my address or local area, as this is what is being asked.
>> I've now lived north of the border nearly 20 years, so I have at least got used to the accent!
>> Dave Buckley
>> 
>> Sent from my Galaxy
>> 
>> 
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> 
>> Date: 20/12/2022 15:03 (GMT+00:00) 
>> To: Tech Ops <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> 
>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language 
>> 
>> To go back a couple of comments - do keep banging on, Dave! I do like a good whinge and poor use of language and grammar are amongst my pet hates. I frequently cringe at misplaced punctuation and mis-pronounced ?worms? to quote the great Mr Barker! 
>> 
>> As to regional accents, I love some, can tolerate a few others and thoroughly dislike a small number. But even within accents that I like, I hate deliberate exaggeration when it is not for comedic effect. When I was still a West Country junior school boy, my prospective brother-in-law from Co Durham could scarcely understand a word I said - I didn?t have the same trouble interpreting his quite broad Darlington accent. But eventually both he and I ended up speaking proper, or I like to think so!
>> 
>> Mike G
>> 
>>> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:48, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?I take exactly the opposite view. Regional accents, even ones I don?t particularly care for,  should be celebrated and treated as the equal of any other accent.  The BBC is a national broadcaster, not a London broadcaster.
>>> 
>>> I would point to people such as Wilfred Pickles, John Arlott, Terry Wogan and Huw Edwards who over the years have all had strong regional accents and have been widely accepted as authoritative broadcasting voices. 
>>> 
>>> Alan
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:31, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> ? There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' with 'hatred'!
>>>> I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's programme.
>>>> It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of "Juddges".
>>>> Pat
>>>> (Bah! Humbug!)
>>>> On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
>>>>>   There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be correct.
>>>>>   Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?
>>>>>   Dave Newbitt.
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From alawrance1 at me.com  Tue Dec 20 10:08:06 2022
From: alawrance1 at me.com (Alasdair Lawrance)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:08:06 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <68330e91-5807-2a02-15ab-d41a9672f1e6@amps.net>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
	<A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<68330e91-5807-2a02-15ab-d41a9672f1e6@amps.net>
Message-ID: <E76FA4F5-3F4B-4199-BC3E-E93983BF93DD@me.com>

And her spelling is obviously crap as well, Pat! Unless it's yours, of course.
Alasdair Lawrance
alawrance1 at me.com

Don?t blame me, I voted Remain.










> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:30, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' with 'hatred'!
> I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's programme.
> It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of "Juddges".
> 
> Pat
> 
> (Bah! Humbug!)
> 
> On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
>>  
>> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be correct.
>>  
>> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?
>>  
>> Dave Newbitt.
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Tue Dec 20 10:57:44 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 16:57:44 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <1AC8C88B-C6C9-4E44-8EC5-BC74AFF78C89@sky.com>
References: <640657628.264301.1671552022256@sky.com>
	<1AC8C88B-C6C9-4E44-8EC5-BC74AFF78C89@sky.com>
Message-ID: <136b90e7-bc26-db06-4f1a-e19ffba6b9e7@chriswoolf.co.uk>

Poor spellings are really not excusable nowadays - correction for typos 
is pretty well automatic everywhere. Grammar is trickier because there 
is the fossilised version that most of us were taught in school, but 
also developments of it over the last 50 or 60? years, some of which can 
be aurally acceptable.... and some which is not.

But worse than that is the inability of a lot of (usually official) 
documentation to understand its own meaning and subtext.

"Final warning" at the head of a letter normally means you have 
forgotten to do something, and need to correct it toot sweet. I got a 
"Final warning" of notice of an appointment at a clinic the other day. 
It was indeed the last of a string of messages I had had, but try as I 
might I couldn't find anything in the text that I was supposed to do to 
confirm my appearance. Indeed there wasn't anything - if you could get 
through the appallingly verbose wording there was /nothing/ you needed 
to do - just a phone number to ring if you///weren't/ going to appear.

I could have rewritten the entire message in two brief sentences and 
avoided any of the confusion.

Chris Woolf

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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 11:05:28 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 17:05:28 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <640657628.264301.1671552022256@sky.com>
References: <640657628.264301.1671552022256@sky.com>
Message-ID: <1b9e725b-d143-c52e-2f32-f3f91f6a15aa@gmail.com>

Dunno which part of Scotland your headmaster hailed from, but 'Jie' is 
not the universal one there. Nor can I place where it come from.

On 20/12/2022 16:00, david.jasma via Tech1 wrote:
> When I was at grammar school in the 50s, the headmaster was Scottish 
> and pronounced 'J' as 'Jie' rather than 'Jay', which we all found amusing.
> It wasn't until I met and subsequently married a Scottish lass, that I 
> found out that 'Jie' was the Scottish way of pronouncing the letter.
> It's just one of number of differences between pronunciation. Another is
> ?asking questions, a good example being - if I am asked 'where do you 
> stay?' I give my address or local area, as this is what is being asked.
> I've now lived north of the border nearly 20 years, so I have at least 
> got used to the accent!
> Dave Buckley
>
> Sent from my Galaxy
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> Date: 20/12/2022 15:03 (GMT+00:00)
> To: Tech Ops <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
>
> To go back a couple of comments - do keep banging on, Dave! I do like 
> a good whinge and poor use of language and grammar are amongst my pet 
> hates. I frequently cringe at misplaced punctuation and mis-pronounced 
> ?worms? to quote the great Mr Barker!
>
> As to regional accents, I love some, can tolerate a few others and 
> thoroughly dislike a small number. But even within accents that I 
> like, I hate deliberate exaggeration when it is not for comedic 
> effect. When I was still a West Country junior school boy, my 
> prospective brother-in-law from Co Durham could scarcely understand a 
> word I said - I didn?t have the same trouble interpreting his quite 
> broad Darlington accent. But eventually both he and I ended up 
> speaking proper, or I like to think so!
>
> Mike G
>
>> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:48, Alan Taylor via Tech1 
>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> I take exactly the opposite view. Regional accents, even ones I don?t 
>> particularly care for, ?should be celebrated and treated as the equal 
>> of any other accent. ?The BBC is a national broadcaster, not a London 
>> broadcaster.
>>
>> I would point to people such as Wilfred Pickles, John Arlott, Terry 
>> Wogan and Huw Edwards who over the years have all had strong regional 
>> accents and have been widely accepted as authoritative broadcasting 
>> voices.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>> On 20 Dec 2022, at 14:31, Pat Heigham via Tech1 
>>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> There was mention of dialect, but in my case, replace 'affection' 
>>> with 'hatred'!
>>> I'm not enamoured of accents North of Watford. OK in drama set 
>>> geographically 'oop North', but I should prefer presenters to use 
>>> perceived pronounciation when fronting a national broadcaster's 
>>> programme.
>>> It makes my toes curl when Tess Daly says: "Joodges" instead of 
>>> "Juddges".
>>>
>>> Pat
>>>
>>> (Bah! Humbug!)
>>>
>>> On 20/12/2022 12:09, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
>>>> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace 
>>>> all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just 
>>>> pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there 
>>>> is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I 
>>>> think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where 
>>>> the past tense would be correct.
>>>> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage 
>>>> to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask 
>>>> myself, what is the point of banging on?
>>>> Dave Newbitt.
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Wed Dec 21 05:17:22 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:17:22 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <1b9e725b-d143-c52e-2f32-f3f91f6a15aa@gmail.com>
References: <640657628.264301.1671552022256@sky.com>
	<1b9e725b-d143-c52e-2f32-f3f91f6a15aa@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33013f72-9c76-7d1d-c6ab-3b29b5115ba7@amps.net>

To continue my moan about regional speech and to echo Mike G's story 
about understanding....

As a sound engineer, I was always concerned about intelligibility* and 
would ask for a retake if I thought it was necessary.

A Director with the script in front of him, knows the dialogue, but the 
audience hearing it for the first time, doesn't.
This was borne out by a dubbing mixer at Elstree, who when queried about 
asking for another take, said:
"If I can't understand it, then the effing audience won't!"

I suppose my beef is a combination of failure to understand, and maybe, 
just maybe, snobbery!
Accents are very much class defining.

There is a presenter, whose Scots accent is so thick, that, in my view 
should never be allowed to broadcast
south of Hadrian's Wall!

Ronnie Barker was incredibly inventive with audio comedy, and I was 
reminded of him, with a question on 'The Chase',
about the Japanese Dynasties. The answers could be:
A 'Noh' B 'Wei' C 'Hosay'

Very amusing!

To play on words as Barker did, could be likened to a clown on a 
tightrope - you have to be expert before you start
messing about!

Alasdair - you missed my point completely. Trying to display an audio 
pronounciation into script is difficult -
try it sometime!

Now whose turn to buy the teas, or should we just adjourn to the Club Bar?
(shame it's no more - remember Eric, the very proper commissionaire?)

(*The term intelligibility refers to 'speech clarity' or *the proportion 
of a speaker's output that a listener can readily understand*.
In typical development, as children learn to talk, their 
comprehensibility to those around them steadily increases).

Pat

(here endeth the lesson for today - do I hear 'Thank goodness'?)




On 20/12/2022 17:05, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:

> Dunno which part of Scotland your headmaster hailed from, but 'Jie' is 
> not the universal one there. Nor can I place where it come from.
>
> On 20/12/2022 16:00, david.jasma via Tech1 wrote:
>> When I was at grammar school in the 50s, the headmaster was Scottish 
>> and pronounced 'J' as 'Jie' rather than 'Jay', which we all found 
>> amusing.
>> It wasn't until I met and subsequently married a Scottish lass, that 
>> I found out that 'Jie' was the Scottish way of pronouncing the letter.
>> It's just one of number of differences between pronunciation. Another is
>> ?asking questions, a good example being - if I am asked 'where do you 
>> stay?' I give my address or local area, as this is what is being asked.
>> I've now lived north of the border nearly 20 years, so I have at 
>> least got used to the accent!
>> Dave Buckley
>>
>> Sent from my Galaxy
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
>> Date: 20/12/2022 15:03 (GMT+00:00)
>> To: Tech Ops <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
>>
>> To go back a couple of comments - do keep banging on, Dave! I do like 
>> a good whinge and poor use of language and grammar are amongst my pet 
>> hates. I frequently cringe at misplaced punctuation and 
>> mis-pronounced ?worms? to quote the great Mr Barker!
>>
>> As to regional accents, I love some, can tolerate a few others and 
>> thoroughly dislike a small number. But even within accents that I 
>> like, I hate deliberate exaggeration when it is not for comedic 
>> effect. When I was still a West Country junior school boy, my 
>> prospective brother-in-law from Co Durham could scarcely understand a 
>> word I said - I didn?t have the same trouble interpreting his quite 
>> broad Darlington accent. But eventually both he and I ended up 
>> speaking proper, or I like to think so!
>>
>> Mike G
>
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From alanaudio at me.com  Wed Dec 21 05:25:43 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:25:43 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?King=E2=80=99s_Christmas_Speech?=
Message-ID: <24623F39-5E15-44B2-9C4E-2979F35419A1@me.com>

Some newspapers have carried the story that ITV had been scheduled to record the King?s Christmas message, but at the last minute it was cancelled and a BBC crew filmed it instead. No explanation was given.

Does anybody have any inside knowledge of what might have prompted this change of plan?

Alan



From mibridge at mac.com  Wed Dec 21 05:35:24 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:35:24 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?King=E2=80=99s_Christmas_Speech?=
In-Reply-To: <24623F39-5E15-44B2-9C4E-2979F35419A1@me.com>
References: <24623F39-5E15-44B2-9C4E-2979F35419A1@me.com>
Message-ID: <59C62230-A4FE-4AFC-BD70-EBB375B86E10@mac.com>

A little bird told me that Charles wanted the same individuals that covered the Queen?s funeral and he adjusted the date of recording to accommodate their availability, but that wouldn?t have precludes it being commissioned by ITV, of course.

It?s true to say, however, that an ITV royal service earlier in the year was not a great success from a production point of view. I can?t remember what the occasion was.

Mike G



> On 21 Dec 2022, at 11:25, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Some newspapers have carried the story that ITV had been scheduled to record the King?s Christmas message, but at the last minute it was cancelled and a BBC crew filmed it instead. No explanation was given.
> 
> Does anybody have any inside knowledge of what might have prompted this change of plan?
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From pat.heigham at amps.net  Wed Dec 21 06:06:38 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:06:38 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?King=E2=80=99s_Christmas_Speech?=
In-Reply-To: <24623F39-5E15-44B2-9C4E-2979F35419A1@me.com>
References: <24623F39-5E15-44B2-9C4E-2979F35419A1@me.com>
Message-ID: <b9e049ed-66d5-d94d-1430-34513350e2a8@amps.net>

I have no knowledge, but maybe C3R felt that as the BBC had covered the 
funeral, and the Festival & Cenotaph service, he might like to keep it 
'in house'.

If so - hurrah!

In this age of media, I wonder that the Palace doesn't have a dedicated 
little studio. like there is in the Houses of Parliament.

Pat

On 21/12/2022 11:25, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
> Some newspapers have carried the story that ITV had been scheduled to record the King?s Christmas message, but at the last minute it was cancelled and a BBC crew filmed it instead. No explanation was given.
>
> Does anybody have any inside knowledge of what might have prompted this change of plan?
>
> Alan
>
>
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From davidvbrunt at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 06:13:36 2022
From: davidvbrunt at gmail.com (David Brunt)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:13:36 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?King=E2=80=99s_Christmas_Speech?=
In-Reply-To: <b9e049ed-66d5-d94d-1430-34513350e2a8@amps.net>
References: <24623F39-5E15-44B2-9C4E-2979F35419A1@me.com>
	<b9e049ed-66d5-d94d-1430-34513350e2a8@amps.net>
Message-ID: <CAFKgnyy-xK5DPdznn3vFNYuoNb=zhJzyd3VKCQU7Tka2xpNs-A@mail.gmail.com>

ITV did it last year.  Don't they alternate each year anyway?

On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 12:07, Pat Heigham via Tech1
<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I have no knowledge, but maybe C3R felt that as the BBC had covered the funeral, and the Festival & Cenotaph service, he might like to keep it 'in house'.
>
> If so - hurrah!
>
> In this age of media, I wonder that the Palace doesn't have a dedicated little studio. like there is in the Houses of Parliament.
>
> Pat
>
> On 21/12/2022 11:25, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
>
> Some newspapers have carried the story that ITV had been scheduled to record the King?s Christmas message, but at the last minute it was cancelled and a BBC crew filmed it instead. No explanation was given.
>
> Does anybody have any inside knowledge of what might have prompted this change of plan?
>
> Alan
>
>
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


From mikej at bmanor.co.uk  Wed Dec 21 06:19:55 2022
From: mikej at bmanor.co.uk (Mike Jordan)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:19:55 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?King=E2=80=99s_Christmas_Speech?=
In-Reply-To: <24623F39-5E15-44B2-9C4E-2979F35419A1@me.com>
References: <24623F39-5E15-44B2-9C4E-2979F35419A1@me.com>
Message-ID: <B30B080E93DD4E838F3D61FD130DAEAF@Gigabyte>

Perhaps ITV ran out of plastic film stock to record the event and so BBC had 
some squirrelled away in Windmill Road (sorry Perivale) and got that out to 
"film" the event!

Mike

-----Original Message----- 
From: Alan Taylor via Tech1
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2022 11:25 AM
To: tech1
Subject: [Tech1] King?s Christmas Speech

Some newspapers have carried the story that ITV had been scheduled to record 
the King?s Christmas message, but at the last minute it was cancelled and a 
BBC crew filmed it instead. No explanation was given.

Does anybody have any inside knowledge of what might have prompted this 
change of plan?

Alan



From pat.heigham at amps.net  Wed Dec 21 07:23:12 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 13:23:12 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Past Comedy
Message-ID: <2707c12f-fc17-5ffa-12e2-211115a0babc@amps.net>

I don't really hold with the repeat channels, but I was mightily 
entertained the other night,
with episodes of "Yes Minister" and "One Foot in the Grave"

Such brilliant writing and playing - where is that, now?

Pat - Thankful that the recordings exist.
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From alanaudio at me.com  Wed Dec 21 07:23:14 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 13:23:14 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?King=E2=80=99s_Christmas_Speech?=
In-Reply-To: <B30B080E93DD4E838F3D61FD130DAEAF@Gigabyte>
References: <B30B080E93DD4E838F3D61FD130DAEAF@Gigabyte>
Message-ID: <717F5849-3F08-4A94-B215-74B44005C6ED@me.com>

The word ?film? is commonly used when recording events on videotape or on entirely digital systems and although I have spent almost my entire career working with electronic cameras, I have no hesitation referring to it as filming because people readily understand the term and use that expression themselves. One of the dramas which I was most proud of was transmitted under the BBC?s ?Film Two? banner.  It was filmed entirely on videotape. 

Videotape consists of a magnetically sensitive coating on a base film.  35mm stock consists of an optically sensitive coating on a base film.  Both processes rely on a film.  It?s only live transmissions or the more recent all-digital recording systems which truly don?t use any film.

For anybody who wants to know a little more about the ITV / BBC coverage of the King?s Christmas message, this article covers most of what little there is in the public domain.  One report implies that ITV were actually on site and told to wrap, with the BBC then being invited instead. 

https://vnexplorer.net/king-charles-speech-filming-mystery-as-bbc-takes-over-after-itv-crew-is-axed-s6647992.html

Alan



> On 21 Dec 2022, at 12:20, Mike Jordan <mikej at bmanor.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?Perhaps ITV ran out of plastic film stock to record the event and so BBC had some squirrelled away in Windmill Road (sorry Perivale) and got that out to "film" the event!
> 
> Mike
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Alan Taylor via Tech1
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2022 11:25 AM
> To: tech1
> Subject: [Tech1] King?s Christmas Speech
> 
> Some newspapers have carried the story that ITV had been scheduled to record the King?s Christmas message, but at the last minute it was cancelled and a BBC crew filmed it instead. No explanation was given.
> 
> Does anybody have any inside knowledge of what might have prompted this change of plan?
> 
> Alan
> 
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From alawrance1 at me.com  Wed Dec 21 08:07:36 2022
From: alawrance1 at me.com (Alasdair Lawrance)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 14:07:36 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Past Comedy
In-Reply-To: <2707c12f-fc17-5ffa-12e2-211115a0babc@amps.net>
References: <2707c12f-fc17-5ffa-12e2-211115a0babc@amps.net>
Message-ID: <EB6F92A6-C4BF-4280-B957-19CF6C86D299@me.com>

For once Pat is right about these series, particularly 'Yes, Minister' as well as 'Yes , Prime Minister'

I would say the same about 'As Time goes By', by Bob Larbey, and produced & directed by Sydney Lotterby.

If you want to watch Geoffrey Palmer in Full Grump mode and Judi Dench showing another area of her immense skill, give it a go.

Alasdair Lawrance
alawrance1 at me.com

Don?t blame me, I voted Remain.










> On 21 Dec 2022, at 13:23, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I don't really hold with the repeat channels, but I was mightily entertained the other night,
> with episodes of "Yes Minister" and "One Foot in the Grave"
> 
> Such brilliant writing and playing - where is that, now?
> 
> Pat - Thankful that the recordings exist.
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 08:16:59 2022
From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:16:59 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] International sound engineers day
Message-ID: <CAA0HHB3iepUbZAh0KMuEHk92Vp17QoRcLudspMi=5o1B301pZw@mail.gmail.com>

How  come the sound people here ignored International sound engineers day
One two one two two ugh two two...
Best Regards Alec

Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections...
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From peter.neill at icloud.com  Thu Dec 22 08:19:44 2022
From: peter.neill at icloud.com (Peter Neill)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:19:44 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] International sound engineers day
In-Reply-To: <CAA0HHB3iepUbZAh0KMuEHk92Vp17QoRcLudspMi=5o1B301pZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA0HHB3iepUbZAh0KMuEHk92Vp17QoRcLudspMi=5o1B301pZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1FA82C8D-04DD-448A-9EC1-6F4D6FC8BFF2@icloud.com>

I didn?t- I even got my local radio station to mention it. The presenter groaned, though. 

Peter

Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for typos and autocorruptions. 

> On 22 Dec 2022, at 14:17, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> How  come the sound people here ignored International sound engineers day
> One two one two two ugh two two...
> Best Regards Alec 
> 
> Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections...
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


From philiptyler at me.com  Thu Dec 22 08:41:00 2022
From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:41:00 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] International sound engineers day
In-Reply-To: <1FA82C8D-04DD-448A-9EC1-6F4D6FC8BFF2@icloud.com>
References: <1FA82C8D-04DD-448A-9EC1-6F4D6FC8BFF2@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <C321B63A-7039-43CF-BDB5-91ADC9321495@me.com>

Un deux un deux
Eins zwei eins zwei
Uno due uno due
Jeden dwa jeden dwa
?? ? ?? ?
Um dois um dois
????? ??? ????? ???
M?t hai m?t hai


Philip and Bee

https://www.flickriver.com/photos/philthebirdbrain/popular-interesting/

> On 22 Dec 2022, at 14:20, Peter Neill via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?I didn?t- I even got my local radio station to mention it. The presenter groaned, though. 
> 
> Peter
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for typos and autocorruptions. 
> 
>> On 22 Dec 2022, at 14:17, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> How  come the sound people here ignored International sound engineers day
>> One two one two two ugh two two...
>> Best Regards Alec 
>> 
>> Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections...
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From mibridge at mac.com  Thu Dec 22 16:22:17 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 22:22:17 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] London & SE News
Message-ID: <76D33CB4-1653-4263-9BBE-2E895C62FCC7@mac.com>

Can one of our esteemed contributors with inside knowledge explain the current situation with London & SE News, please? Certainly on occasions, it seems that they are using the same, or a similar studio as the Ten O?clock, which would presumably therefore mean that they are in HD, but after the end of the Ten O?clock, BBC1 HD continues to show the caption saying that the programme is not available in HD. Last night, at the end of the Ten, the SE presenter flashed up briefly before the caption appeared. I would have presumed that even a few frames would not have been possible if they were originated in SD. 

I am further confused by the fact that in the past, I don?t think the SE News was available on iPlayer, but it has been in the recent past - again, I always assumed that SD sources we?re incompatible with iPlayer. Am I alone in my confusion?

Mike G

From peter.neill at icloud.com  Thu Dec 22 16:54:26 2022
From: peter.neill at icloud.com (Peter Neill)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 22:54:26 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] London & SE News
In-Reply-To: <76D33CB4-1653-4263-9BBE-2E895C62FCC7@mac.com>
References: <76D33CB4-1653-4263-9BBE-2E895C62FCC7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A45760F0-1299-43ED-8C39-32F201DE73B3@icloud.com>

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From paul at pgtmedia.co.uk  Thu Dec 22 17:02:38 2022
From: paul at pgtmedia.co.uk (Paul Thackray)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 23:02:38 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] London & SE News
In-Reply-To: <76D33CB4-1653-4263-9BBE-2E895C62FCC7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6ugnjr2qjv5pajacti0cson6.1671750158231@pgtmedia.co.uk>



Hi Mike,
Yes some times shared with main news, sometimes thier own. Both are HD Studios. What is not yet available is some parts of the distribution. So on SKY & Freesat (both same sat with a different menu. )
One sat transponder per region in SD (About a dozen) and one HD for England and one for each national region. 


Early next year, the regional Sat's will become all HD with one SD English feed. 
So those with SD only reception will no longer get regional news. A year or so later all SD feeds will cease. Simular set up with Freeview. 






Paul


 


Paul Thackray


PGT Media Consulting Ltd.


07802 243979


Mail; paul at pgtmedia.co.uk


Web; http://www.pgtmedia.co.uk


Linkedin;   http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/paul-thackray/19/379/746


IMDB; http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1488554/




	  Original Message  	




From: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
Sent: 22 December 2022 22:23
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
Reply to: mibridge at mac.com
Subject: [Tech1] London & SE News


Can one of our esteemed contributors with inside knowledge explain the current situation with London & SE News, please? Certainly on occasions, it seems that they are using the same, or a similar studio as the Ten O?clock, which would presumably therefore mean that they are in HD, but after the end of the Ten O?clock, BBC1 HD continues to show the caption saying that the programme is not available in HD. Last night, at the end of the Ten, the SE presenter flashed up briefly before the caption appeared. I would have presumed that even a few frames would not have been possible if they were originated in SD.


I am further confused by the fact that in the past, I don?t think the SE News was available on iPlayer, but it has been in the recent past - again, I always assumed that SD sources we?re incompatible with iPlayer. Am I alone in my confusion?


Mike G
--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


































































































































































From mibridge at mac.com  Fri Dec 23 03:05:59 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 09:05:59 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] London & SE News
In-Reply-To: <A45760F0-1299-43ED-8C39-32F201DE73B3@icloud.com>
References: <A45760F0-1299-43ED-8C39-32F201DE73B3@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <E87DC9C7-C80D-4E38-A287-81F60AC1AB7C@mac.com>

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From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 05:11:07 2022
From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (Geoffrey Hawkes)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 11:11:07 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] London & SE News
In-Reply-To: <E87DC9C7-C80D-4E38-A287-81F60AC1AB7C@mac.com>
References: <E87DC9C7-C80D-4E38-A287-81F60AC1AB7C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4CDF0929-9251-41C8-9D69-6066D3B8D87C@gmail.com>

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From dave.mdv at btinternet.com  Fri Dec 23 05:14:06 2022
From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 11:14:06 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?King=E2=80=99s_Christmas_Speech?=
In-Reply-To: <717F5849-3F08-4A94-B215-74B44005C6ED@me.com>
References: <B30B080E93DD4E838F3D61FD130DAEAF@Gigabyte>
	<717F5849-3F08-4A94-B215-74B44005C6ED@me.com>
Message-ID: <b157bc31-9c75-2f5b-7c3b-5eefb697de5f@btinternet.com>

AFAIK, as National Broadcaster the BBC always did the Royal Christmas 
Message until the infamous Princess Diana interview. After that, the 
palace hierarchy fell out with the Beeb and gave it to ITV, how Rupert 
Murdoch's cash-cow got involved I've no idea! Cheers, Dave


From barrybonner119 at btinternet.com  Fri Dec 23 06:45:49 2022
From: barrybonner119 at btinternet.com (Barry Bonner)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 12:45:49 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] International sound engineers day
In-Reply-To: <CAA0HHB3iepUbZAh0KMuEHk92Vp17QoRcLudspMi=5o1B301pZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA0HHB3iepUbZAh0KMuEHk92Vp17QoRcLudspMi=5o1B301pZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E14BA939-6441-41B7-B676-535985204943@btinternet.com>

Sound ?engineers??  There weren?t any of those in the TVC! 
Barry.



On 22 Dec 2022, at 14:16, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

> How  come the sound people here ignored International sound engineers day
> One two one two two ugh two two...
> Best Regards Alec 
> 
> Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections...
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 07:48:53 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 13:48:53 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] International sound engineers day
In-Reply-To: <E14BA939-6441-41B7-B676-535985204943@btinternet.com>
References: <CAA0HHB3iepUbZAh0KMuEHk92Vp17QoRcLudspMi=5o1B301pZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<E14BA939-6441-41B7-B676-535985204943@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <777f443e-7411-514e-d3b1-f4544b0e0953@gmail.com>

Another Americanism ruining our language.?

On 23/12/2022 12:45, Barry Bonner via Tech1 wrote:
> Sound ?engineers?? ?There weren?t any of those in the TVC!
> Barry.
>
>
>
> On 22 Dec 2022, at 14:16, Alec Bray via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> 
> wrote:
>
>> How? come the sound people here ignored International sound engineers 
>> day
>> One two one two two ugh two two...
>> Best Regards Alec
>>
>> Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections...
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
>
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From tonynuttall at me.com  Fri Dec 23 09:53:45 2022
From: tonynuttall at me.com (William Nuttall)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 15:53:45 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC  23/12/22
Message-ID: <1f6f7db9-d0bb-41b1-9382-9284f9cfcc0d@me.com>

Hi Folks,Is it me , or my eyes & ears, is the Sound on the Trail for MOTHERLAND BBC1TXM 2130 BBC1 ?2312/22 out of Sync and very muffled? ?Do we need a SoundEngineer for these sort of Jobs?Tony Nuttall, in the Wilds Of Cumbria
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From alanaudio at me.com  Fri Dec 23 10:53:19 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 16:53:19 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC  23/12/22
In-Reply-To: <1f6f7db9-d0bb-41b1-9382-9284f9cfcc0d@me.com>
References: <1f6f7db9-d0bb-41b1-9382-9284f9cfcc0d@me.com>
Message-ID: <43DFA419-B903-4BCB-88AB-4953B7ABEA33@me.com>

The one that gets me is continuity announcements for Channel 5.  Continuity announcements are notorious for being amateurishly loud, but Channel 5 takes it to another level ( and that level sounds like +20dB ).  

They are doubtless using the best and most sophisticated voice optimisation technology, but my word, it does make it ridiculously loud. Subjectively, it?s hopelessly wrong, especially when the programme martial either side doesn?t use similar techniques.  Not only does it not need to be anywhere near that loud, but it makes me wince or reach for the volume control, rather than listen to what they are saying.

There was also a Michael Portillo series where he was walking a long distance path.  His microphone was sounding hopelessly muffled on every shot of every episode, while his guests sounded OK.  I assume the problem was that he put his microphone on without supervision and sited it for looks or convenience. It?s hard to believe that anybody was listening to the audio being recorded or even critically listening to the rushes that evening.

Another thing I see happening a lot these days is some very weird flesh tones on presenters.  I?ve particularly noticed it with Susan Colman and also George Clark.  I assume that the cameraman has set up a special profile, tweaking the gamma curves, with the intention of flattering the talent, but it just looks unrealistic, especially when intercut with a ?normal? camera for interviewees.

Three complaints and in each case the fault should have been noticed by competent staff on site, but there no longer seems to be anybody critically listening, or checking the pictures at the point where something could be done about it.

Alan



> On 23 Dec 2022, at 15:54, William Nuttall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Hi Folks,
> Is it me , or my eyes & ears, is the Sound on the Trail for MOTHERLAND BBC1
> TXM 2130 BBC1  2312/22 out of Sync and very muffled?  Do we need a Sound
> Engineer for these sort of Jobs?
> 
> Tony Nuttall, in the Wilds Of Cumbria
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


From dave.mdv at btinternet.com  Fri Dec 23 10:58:13 2022
From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 16:58:13 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22
In-Reply-To: <43DFA419-B903-4BCB-88AB-4953B7ABEA33@me.com>
References: <1f6f7db9-d0bb-41b1-9382-9284f9cfcc0d@me.com>
	<43DFA419-B903-4BCB-88AB-4953B7ABEA33@me.com>
Message-ID: <2745f557-67d4-7421-d2c8-4bd080915ef2@btinternet.com>

Standards, what are they? Cheers, Dave


From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Fri Dec 23 11:02:21 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 17:02:21 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22
In-Reply-To: <2745f557-67d4-7421-d2c8-4bd080915ef2@btinternet.com>
References: <1f6f7db9-d0bb-41b1-9382-9284f9cfcc0d@me.com>
	<43DFA419-B903-4BCB-88AB-4953B7ABEA33@me.com>
	<2745f557-67d4-7421-d2c8-4bd080915ef2@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <8848FAF0-0288-4820-87CB-779420768705@icloud.com>

Here?s a Standard:

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> On 23 Dec 2022, at 16:58, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Standards, what are they? Cheers, Dave
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall



From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Fri Dec 23 11:20:11 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 17:20:11 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22
In-Reply-To: <8848FAF0-0288-4820-87CB-779420768705@icloud.com>
References: <1f6f7db9-d0bb-41b1-9382-9284f9cfcc0d@me.com><43DFA419-B903-4BCB-88AB-4953B7ABEA33@me.com><2745f557-67d4-7421-d2c8-4bd080915ef2@btinternet.com>
	<8848FAF0-0288-4820-87CB-779420768705@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <5BF30F3D56354DDD9978D065F89A203C@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Wow - a good old Mk1 Vanguard. When these were new I was a front seat 
passenger in one when the upper wishbone pivot on the n/s front wheel 
detached itself somehow and the wheel assumed a horizontal rather than 
vertical attitude. We stopped rather abruptly and walked to the 'Rest and Be 
Thankful' at Wheddon Cross on Exmoor while the local garage retrieved the 
car. I was just a schoolboy and found it all quite exciting - in those days 
lads my age didn't get to see the inside of many pubs!

Dave Newbitt.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Graeme Wall via Tech1
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 5:02 PM
To: dave.mdv
Cc: Tech ops
Subject: Re: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22

Here?s a Standard:









> On 23 Dec 2022, at 16:58, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Standards, what are they? Cheers, Dave
>
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

?
Graeme Wall








-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk 



From hughsheppard at btinternet.com  Fri Dec 23 11:25:33 2022
From: hughsheppard at btinternet.com (Hugh Sheppard)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 17:25:33 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22 AND MORE!
In-Reply-To: <43DFA419-B903-4BCB-88AB-4953B7ABEA33@me.com>
References: <1f6f7db9-d0bb-41b1-9382-9284f9cfcc0d@me.com>
	<43DFA419-B903-4BCB-88AB-4953B7ABEA33@me.com>
Message-ID: <4aa68c30-090e-e666-ccae-f260ef27aa8d@btinternet.com>

OK Alan and many others, how about a whinge over World Cup Football 
commentaries?

I mutter on at home about compressed audio on TV etc. but save my real 
ire for automatic mixers that render commentary all too unnatural all 
too often.? my guess is that in Qatar, ITV used cheek mics while the 
Beeb still used lip-mics. Hurrah for that!? I may have cloth ears but a 
decent sound-bar (Yamaha) rendered BBC commentary as generally decent, 
while ITV's was largely unintelligible thanks to over-dominant crowd 
noise, with a perceptible auto-lift thrown in whenever their 
commentators stopped talking.

Now, who is the fall-guy who's going to tell me that actually, it was 
the other way round!

Season's Best

Hugh

On 23/12/2022 16:53, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
> The one that gets me is continuity announcements for Channel 5.  Continuity announcements are notorious for being amateurishly loud, but Channel 5 takes it to another level ( and that level sounds like +20dB ).
>
> They are doubtless using the best and most sophisticated voice optimisation technology, but my word, it does make it ridiculously loud. Subjectively, it?s hopelessly wrong, especially when the programme martial either side doesn?t use similar techniques.  Not only does it not need to be anywhere near that loud, but it makes me wince or reach for the volume control, rather than listen to what they are saying.
>
> There was also a Michael Portillo series where he was walking a long distance path.  His microphone was sounding hopelessly muffled on every shot of every episode, while his guests sounded OK.  I assume the problem was that he put his microphone on without supervision and sited it for looks or convenience. It?s hard to believe that anybody was listening to the audio being recorded or even critically listening to the rushes that evening.
>
> Another thing I see happening a lot these days is some very weird flesh tones on presenters.  I?ve particularly noticed it with Susan Colman and also George Clark.  I assume that the cameraman has set up a special profile, tweaking the gamma curves, with the intention of flattering the talent, but it just looks unrealistic, especially when intercut with a ?normal? camera for interviewees.
>
> Three complaints and in each case the fault should have been noticed by competent staff on site, but there no longer seems to be anybody critically listening, or checking the pictures at the point where something could be done about it.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>> On 23 Dec 2022, at 15:54, William Nuttall via Tech1<tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>  wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> Hi Folks,
>> Is it me , or my eyes & ears, is the Sound on the Trail for MOTHERLAND BBC1
>> TXM 2130 BBC1  2312/22 out of Sync and very muffled?  Do we need a Sound
>> Engineer for these sort of Jobs?
>>
>> Tony Nuttall, in the Wilds Of Cumbria
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
-------------- next part --------------
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From paul at pgtmedia.co.uk  Fri Dec 23 11:49:17 2022
From: paul at pgtmedia.co.uk (Paul Thackray)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 17:49:17 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC  23/12/22
In-Reply-To: <43DFA419-B903-4BCB-88AB-4953B7ABEA33@me.com>
Message-ID: <vqrs8c1qo9804utjkbhlm6c9.1671817757375@pgtmedia.co.uk>

As Channel five is now owned by Paramount Viacom CBS, you might have thought thay have enough resources to do it properly?








Paul


 


Paul Thackray


PGT Media Consulting Ltd.


07802 243979


Mail; paul at pgtmedia.co.uk


Web; http://www.pgtmedia.co.uk


Linkedin;   http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/paul-thackray/19/379/746


IMDB; http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1488554/




	  Original Message  	




From: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
Sent: 23 December 2022 16:53
To: tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
Reply to: alanaudio at me.com
Subject: Re: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22


The one that gets me is continuity announcements for Channel 5.  Continuity announcements are notorious for being amateurishly loud, but Channel 5 takes it to another level ( and that level sounds like +20dB ). 


They are doubtless using the best and most sophisticated voice optimisation technology, but my word, it does make it ridiculously loud. Subjectively, it?s hopelessly wrong, especially when the programme martial either side doesn?t use similar techniques.  Not only does it not need to be anywhere near that loud, but it makes me wince or reach for the volume control, rather than listen to what they are saying.


There was also a Michael Portillo series where he was walking a long distance path.  His microphone was sounding hopelessly muffled on every shot of every episode, while his guests sounded OK.  I assume the problem was that he put his microphone on without supervision and sited it for looks or convenience. It?s hard to believe that anybody was listening to the audio being recorded or even critically listening to the rushes that evening.


Another thing I see happening a lot these days is some very weird flesh tones on presenters.  I?ve particularly noticed it with Susan Colman and also George Clark.  I assume that the cameraman has set up a special profile, tweaking the gamma curves, with the intention of flattering the talent, but it just looks unrealistic, especially when intercut with a ?normal? camera for interviewees.


Three complaints and in each case the fault should have been noticed by competent staff on site, but there no longer seems to be anybody critically listening, or checking the pictures at the point where something could be done about it.


Alan






> On 23 Dec 2022, at 15:54, William Nuttall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
> ?
> Hi Folks,
> Is it me , or my eyes & ears, is the Sound on the Trail for MOTHERLAND BBC1
> TXM 2130 BBC1  2312/22 out of Sync and very muffled?  Do we need a Sound
> Engineer for these sort of Jobs?
>
> Tony Nuttall, in the Wilds Of Cumbria
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk










































From alanaudio at me.com  Fri Dec 23 13:38:55 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 19:38:55 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22 AND MORE!
In-Reply-To: <4aa68c30-090e-e666-ccae-f260ef27aa8d@btinternet.com>
References: <4aa68c30-090e-e666-ccae-f260ef27aa8d@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <5FFF7967-5F93-4948-B399-0F89B694DF55@me.com>

Hugh, I might have an opinion about most things, but recent sports commentaries are not one of them. I?ve never had the slightest interest in any sports and now that I am no longer paid to work on such things, my life is entirely free of sports television.

It?s interesting that you observed that the crowd noise was excessive on the ITV coverage.  Producers always seemed to want the commentator excessively loud and didn?t seem particularly interested in crowd noise except when a goal was scored. My preference was always to mix the crowd noise to provide a solid bed of crowd effects, with the pitch effects and commentary clearly audible above it.  Sound assistants on MOTD used to whinge a little because I always booked one extra gun mic, to be put in the gantry, pointing to the home supporters behind the goal. This was in the days when we only used a very small number of gun mics to cover a typical footie match. That extra gun mic could be kept faded up quite prominently all the time and made it practical to fade the pitch effects mics up and down quite sharply, without the mix sounding jumpy. One oddity of using a gun mic on the gantry pointing at the noisy part of the crowd was that it could make the crowd sound very vocal, which added to the atmosphere. In those days, crowd effects were normally picked up by an omni mic dangling off the gantry, but the crowd sat below weren?t really the noisy fans.  Alec Weeks liked hearing the chanting or cheers and sometimes asked the cameramen to offer shots of the rowdy crowd, but those shots rarely looked as ?noisy? as the crowd sounded. 

More recently, a typical football match would use twelve pitchside gun mics on short stands ( 4 corners, 2 goals, 3 on near side, 3 on far side ). In addition there would be effects mics on cameras close to the pitch, together with crowd effects mics in the gantry.

Alan



> On 23 Dec 2022, at 17:25, Hugh Sheppard <hughsheppard at btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> OK Alan and many others, how about a whinge over World Cup Football commentaries?
> 
> I mutter on at home about compressed audio on TV etc. but save my real ire for automatic mixers that render commentary all too unnatural all too often.  my guess is that in Qatar, ITV used cheek mics while the Beeb still used lip-mics.  Hurrah for that!  I may have cloth ears but a decent sound-bar (Yamaha) rendered BBC commentary as generally decent, while ITV's was largely unintelligible thanks to over-dominant crowd noise, with a perceptible auto-lift thrown in whenever their commentators stopped talking.
> 
> Now, who is the fall-guy who's going to tell me that actually, it was the other way round!   
> 
> Season's Best
> 
> Hugh  
> 
> On 23/12/2022 16:53, Alan Taylor via Tech1 wrote:
>> The one that gets me is continuity announcements for Channel 5.  Continuity announcements are notorious for being amateurishly loud, but Channel 5 takes it to another level ( and that level sounds like +20dB ).  
>> 
>> They are doubtless using the best and most sophisticated voice optimisation technology, but my word, it does make it ridiculously loud. Subjectively, it?s hopelessly wrong, especially when the programme martial either side doesn?t use similar techniques.  Not only does it not need to be anywhere near that loud, but it makes me wince or reach for the volume control, rather than listen to what they are saying.
>> 
>> There was also a Michael Portillo series where he was walking a long distance path.  His microphone was sounding hopelessly muffled on every shot of every episode, while his guests sounded OK.  I assume the problem was that he put his microphone on without supervision and sited it for looks or convenience. It?s hard to believe that anybody was listening to the audio being recorded or even critically listening to the rushes that evening.
>> 
>> Another thing I see happening a lot these days is some very weird flesh tones on presenters.  I?ve particularly noticed it with Susan Colman and also George Clark.  I assume that the cameraman has set up a special profile, tweaking the gamma curves, with the intention of flattering the talent, but it just looks unrealistic, especially when intercut with a ?normal? camera for interviewees.
>> 
>> Three complaints and in each case the fault should have been noticed by competent staff on site, but there no longer seems to be anybody critically listening, or checking the pictures at the point where something could be done about it.
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 23 Dec 2022, at 15:54, William Nuttall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> Hi Folks,
>>> Is it me , or my eyes & ears, is the Sound on the Trail for MOTHERLAND BBC1
>>> TXM 2130 BBC1  2312/22 out of Sync and very muffled?  Do we need a Sound
>>> Engineer for these sort of Jobs?
>>> 
>>> Tony Nuttall, in the Wilds Of Cumbria
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From geoffletch at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 13:41:53 2022
From: geoffletch at gmail.com (Geoff Fletcher)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 19:41:53 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22
In-Reply-To: <5BF30F3D56354DDD9978D065F89A203C@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <1f6f7db9-d0bb-41b1-9382-9284f9cfcc0d@me.com>
	<43DFA419-B903-4BCB-88AB-4953B7ABEA33@me.com>
	<2745f557-67d4-7421-d2c8-4bd080915ef2@btinternet.com>
	<8848FAF0-0288-4820-87CB-779420768705@icloud.com>
	<5BF30F3D56354DDD9978D065F89A203C@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <C888372E-4CCE-45B2-825F-E6E023258C8C@gmail.com>

The lack of what were once professional standards drummed into us all is evident across the board. For example - my wife - ex LWT and Anglia TV Make-Up, always gets annoyed to see female presenters with their faces made up tanned but their chests and hands left a  pale white.
I hate late fades and directors trying to re-invent the wheel on 2 ways by crabbing the. cameras around, and also dreadful quality pictures from computers and mobiles, and vertical format mobile footage -- among many other aspects of modern TV productions.
But we are all dinosaurs now I guess.
Geoff F

> On 23 Dec 2022, at 17:20, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Wow - a good old Mk1 Vanguard. When these were new I was a front seat passenger in one when the upper wishbone pivot on the n/s front wheel detached itself somehow and the wheel assumed a horizontal rather than vertical attitude. We stopped rather abruptly and walked to the 'Rest and Be Thankful' at Wheddon Cross on Exmoor while the local garage retrieved the car. I was just a schoolboy and found it all quite exciting - in those days lads my age didn't get to see the inside of many pubs!
> 
> Dave Newbitt.
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Graeme Wall via Tech1
> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 5:02 PM
> To: dave.mdv
> Cc: Tech ops
> Subject: Re: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22
> 
> Here?s a Standard:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 23 Dec 2022, at 16:58, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> Standards, what are they? Cheers, Dave
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> 
> ?
> Graeme Wall
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From keithwicksuk at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 14:38:22 2022
From: keithwicksuk at gmail.com (Keith Wicks)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 20:38:22 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
	<A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <CAA=qGJ=-X0TNthHERC9Ou3+E8kFF3BDqU8eLJBtbFRaB6=uLOQ@mail.gmail.com>

I spent many years as a book editor and as a writer. As a result, I don?t
hold any hard and fast rules about how language should be written. As a
writer, I would usually be told which dictionary and style guide to use for
a particular client and, as an editor, I would specify them myself if there
was no particular house style to follow. So the right or wrong expression
to use in any particular circumstances may simply depend on someone?s
decision about which reference books to use.


My Oxford English Dictionary program includes the following:


*unseasonable*


Not suited to, not in accordance with, the time or occasion; untimely,
inopportune.


Of weather: Not appropriate to the season of the year; esp. stormy,
tempestuous. Also of days, seasons, etc., marked by such weather.


Note that there is no mention here of seasoning (with salt and pepper), but
the word season may sometimes refer to the act or time of impregnation, so
it is easy to see why seasonable (and unseasonable) can reasonably be used
to refer to matters associated with time. The OED gives examples of this
usage starting from the 1400s.


Interestingly, under the entry for *seasonable*, OED includes the following
quote:


*Erroneously used for seasonal*


   1923 Glasgow Herald 20 Mar. 9 Persons engaged in seasonable trades in
which the duration of seasonable employment is too short to enable them to
qualify for benefit.    [1980 Listener 10 Jan. 51/3 Will the BBC please
note that the word they want is ?seasonable?, not ?seasonal?. One has
seasonable items like mince pies and carols; ?seasonal? is applied to
rainfall and fluctuations in car sales, i.e., things that happen with the
changing seasons.]


The only thing that is certain is that language changes over time and if
sufficient people use a word in a particular way, then that will become the
established meaning. In the meantime, words will mean different things to
different people.


KW

On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 12:10, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
wrote:

> I find it difficult to know if the substantial removal of emphasis on the
> correct use of English is anything I have a right to feel aggrieved about.
> The debate has raged for as long as any of us can remember against a
> background of ever greater departure from set rules designed to promote
> clarity in written communication and avoidance of ambiguity.
>
> I would certainly not advocate discarding written work from intelligent
> people on grounds of poor English (as would once have been common practice)
> but I don?t think such people make good journalists unless effective
> editorial oversight tidies up their offerings. A fair slice of published
> copy as presented in newspapers and magazines ranges from sloppy to
> laughable.
>
> A couple of thoughts closely related to the mantra that a lie, told often
> enough, becomes the truth. What is classified as evolution of language is
> often merely the wildfire speed at which errors spread (I should *of *known
> better etc.)
>
> When, at school, we were introduced to the concept of unseasonal weather,
> it was emphasised that the wholly erroneous substitution of* unseasonable*
> was laughable since, if it meant anything at all, it was that the weather
> couldn?t have salt and pepper applied. One might think the last bastion of
> correctness in this instance might be weather forecasters, but no, almost
> all of them use the incorrect word. The BBC?s TV ad. trumpeting the weather
> app featured at one time a mobile ?phone screen displaying ?unseasonable?.
>
> At school we were warned against saying ?smarrawichoo? and the like, very
> particularly because sloppy speech leads to sloppy writing. The Americans
> have much to answer for in this regard eg. *inner*national. A high
> proportion of folk who make up our society talk a lot but write very
> little. When they do write (encouraged by far too much ?have your say? in
> my opinion) it is hardly surprising that what results resembles a phonetic
> representation of the way they speak their words.
>
> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these
> things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic
> stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever
> present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss
> Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be
> correct.
>
> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an
> extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the
> point of banging on?
>
> Dave Newbitt.
>
> *From:* Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1
> *Sent:* Monday, December 19, 2022 7:02 PM
> *To:* Brian Curtis
> *Cc:* dave.mdv via Tech1
> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
>
> You?re right there. Regrettably it?s become fashionable to drop the letter
> ?g?) at the end of words ending in ?ing? both on radio where Caris
> Matthew?s on R4s ?Add to Playlist? is one of the chief and for me the most
> irritating culprits - as is one in particular of the BBC1 continuity
> announcers who consistently does the same. I?d like to know what they do
> when helping their children to read. Do they tell them that in speaking our
> funny old language the ?g? is silent, whereas it has to be included when
> spelling or writing it, or what?
>
> Geoff
>
> On 19 Dec 2022, at 18:21, Brian Curtis via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> Can't even rely on the BBC for good English these days!
>
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 16:24, Gary Critcher via Tech1 <
> tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> This caption was 'live' just now on News 24.
>> For crying out loud, couldn't it have been taken down and changed? It's
>> not that difficult for crying out loud.
>>
>>    Gary
>>
>
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From keithwicksuk at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 15:05:16 2022
From: keithwicksuk at gmail.com (Keith Wicks)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 21:05:16 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
	<A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <CAA=qGJ=_pL7WHJx0KuNTE0FUW6nt+4pC1Fp1M-ERoWfOB0=RuQ@mail.gmail.com>

I spent many years as a book editor and as a writer. As a result, I don?t
hold any hard and fast rules about how language should be written. As a
writer, I would usually be told which dictionary and style guide to use for
a particular client and, as an editor, I would specify them myself if there
was no particular house style to follow. So the right or wrong expression
to use in any particular circumstances may simply depend on someone?s
decision about which reference books to use.


My Oxford English Dictionary program includes the following:


*unseasonable*


Not suited to, not in accordance with, the time or occasion; untimely,
inopportune.


Of weather: Not appropriate to the season of the year; esp. stormy,
tempestuous. Also of days, seasons, etc., marked by such weather.


Note that there is no mention here of seasoning (with salt and pepper), but
the word season may sometimes refer to the act or time of impregnation, so
it is easy to see why seasonable (and unseasonable) can reasonably be used
to refer to matters associated with time. The OED gives examples of this
usage starting from the 1400s.


Interestingly, under the entry for *seasonable*, OED includes the following
quote:


*Erroneously used for seasonal*


   1923 Glasgow Herald 20 Mar. 9 Persons engaged in seasonable trades in
which the duration of seasonable employment is too short to enable them to
qualify for benefit.    [1980 Listener 10 Jan. 51/3 Will the BBC please
note that the word they want is ?seasonable?, not ?seasonal?. One has
seasonable items like mince pies and carols; ?seasonal? is applied to
rainfall and fluctuations in car sales, i.e., things that happen with the
changing seasons.]


The only thing that is certain is that language changes over time and if
sufficient people use a word in a particular way, then that will become the
established meaning. In the meantime, words will mean different things to
different people.


KW

On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 12:10, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
wrote:

> I find it difficult to know if the substantial removal of emphasis on the
> correct use of English is anything I have a right to feel aggrieved about.
> The debate has raged for as long as any of us can remember against a
> background of ever greater departure from set rules designed to promote
> clarity in written communication and avoidance of ambiguity.
>
> I would certainly not advocate discarding written work from intelligent
> people on grounds of poor English (as would once have been common practice)
> but I don?t think such people make good journalists unless effective
> editorial oversight tidies up their offerings. A fair slice of published
> copy as presented in newspapers and magazines ranges from sloppy to
> laughable.
>
> A couple of thoughts closely related to the mantra that a lie, told often
> enough, becomes the truth. What is classified as evolution of language is
> often merely the wildfire speed at which errors spread (I should *of *known
> better etc.)
>
> When, at school, we were introduced to the concept of unseasonal weather,
> it was emphasised that the wholly erroneous substitution of* unseasonable*
> was laughable since, if it meant anything at all, it was that the weather
> couldn?t have salt and pepper applied. One might think the last bastion of
> correctness in this instance might be weather forecasters, but no, almost
> all of them use the incorrect word. The BBC?s TV ad. trumpeting the weather
> app featured at one time a mobile ?phone screen displaying ?unseasonable?.
>
> At school we were warned against saying ?smarrawichoo? and the like, very
> particularly because sloppy speech leads to sloppy writing. The Americans
> have much to answer for in this regard eg. *inner*national. A high
> proportion of folk who make up our society talk a lot but write very
> little. When they do write (encouraged by far too much ?have your say? in
> my opinion) it is hardly surprising that what results resembles a phonetic
> representation of the way they speak their words.
>
> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these
> things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic
> stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever
> present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss
> Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be
> correct.
>
> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an
> extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the
> point of banging on?
>
> Dave Newbitt.
>
>
>
> *From:* Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1
> *Sent:* Monday, December 19, 2022 7:02 PM
> *To:* Brian Curtis
> *Cc:* dave.mdv via Tech1
> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
>
> You?re right there. Regrettably it?s become fashionable to drop the letter
> ?g?) at the end of words ending in ?ing? both on radio where Caris
> Matthew?s on R4s ?Add to Playlist? is one of the chief and for me the most
> irritating culprits - as is one in particular of the BBC1 continuity
> announcers who consistently does the same. I?d like to know what they do
> when helping their children to read. Do they tell them that in speaking our
> funny old language the ?g? is silent, whereas it has to be included when
> spelling or writing it, or what?
>
> Geoff
>
> On 19 Dec 2022, at 18:21, Brian Curtis via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> ?
> Can't even rely on the BBC for good English these days!
>
>
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 16:24, Gary Critcher via Tech1 <
> tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> This caption was 'live' just now on News 24.
>> For crying out loud, couldn't it have been taken down and changed? It's
>> not that difficult for crying out loud.
>>
>>    Gary
>> --
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
> ------------------------------
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Fri Dec 23 18:20:01 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 00:20:01 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <CAA=qGJ=_pL7WHJx0KuNTE0FUW6nt+4pC1Fp1M-ERoWfOB0=RuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com><6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com><A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<CAA=qGJ=_pL7WHJx0KuNTE0FUW6nt+4pC1Fp1M-ERoWfOB0=RuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F1A0861E297E4E62A7EE22E1EAD52E22@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

A scholarly and professional commentary on the topic Keith, strongly reinforced by my inbox receiving no less than four copies of your post! >From what you say it seems the OED is not altogether clear in its view so where does that leave us?

I am still somewhat persuaded of the desirability of standardisation in language ? after all, historically significant figures have tried to issue guidance in pursuit of this goal. You point out that there are reference books which offer differing views, but where do these come from? Are they indicative of the variation in the extent to which their authors are willing to accept and go along with ?popular? departures from previously accepted rules? Once the existence of differing truths in a range of reference books is seen as acceptable then where is the limit? Ten sources? Or twenty?

In my preceding paragraph, before penning ?the existence of differing truths? I initially wrote the phrase as ?existence of alternative truths? which I promptly rejected since alternative would have covered just two variants rather than several. I am of course aware that very regularly one reads copy referring to umpteen alternatives so I wonder will this too come to be permitted usage?

A house in the main street of my village was once the home of H W Fowler, the fact suitably commemorated with blue plaque noting that he wrote MEU there. I wonder what he would have made of all this? I think the only certainty is that the debate will never end.

Dave Newbitt.

From: Keith Wicks via Tech1 
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 9:05 PM
To: David Newbitt ; tech1 ; Brian Curtis ; Geoffrey Hawkes 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language

I spent many years as a book editor and as a writer. As a result, I don?t hold any hard and fast rules about how language should be written. As a writer, I would usually be told which dictionary and style guide to use for a particular client and, as an editor, I would specify them myself if there was no particular house style to follow. So the right or wrong expression to use in any particular circumstances may simply depend on someone?s decision about which reference books to use.




My Oxford English Dictionary program includes the following:



unseasonable




Not suited to, not in accordance with, the time or occasion; untimely, inopportune. 




Of weather: Not appropriate to the season of the year; esp. stormy, tempestuous. Also of days, seasons, etc., marked by such weather. 



Note that there is no mention here of seasoning (with salt and pepper), but the word season may sometimes refer to the act or time of impregnation, so it is easy to see why seasonable (and unseasonable) can reasonably be used to refer to matters associated with time. The OED gives examples of this usage starting from the 1400s.




Interestingly, under the entry for seasonable, OED includes the following quote: 




Erroneously used for seasonal




   1923 Glasgow Herald 20 Mar. 9 Persons engaged in seasonable trades in which the duration of seasonable employment is too short to enable them to qualify for benefit.    [1980 Listener 10 Jan. 51/3 Will the BBC please note that the word they want is ?seasonable?, not ?seasonal?. One has seasonable items like mince pies and carols; ?seasonal? is applied to rainfall and fluctuations in car sales, i.e., things that happen with the changing seasons.]



The only thing that is certain is that language changes over time and if sufficient people use a word in a particular way, then that will become the established meaning. In the meantime, words will mean different things to different people. 




KW


On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 12:10, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

  I find it difficult to know if the substantial removal of emphasis on the correct use of English is anything I have a right to feel aggrieved about. The debate has raged for as long as any of us can remember against a background of ever greater departure from set rules designed to promote clarity in written communication and avoidance of ambiguity.

  I would certainly not advocate discarding written work from intelligent people on grounds of poor English (as would once have been common practice) but I don?t think such people make good journalists unless effective editorial oversight tidies up their offerings. A fair slice of published copy as presented in newspapers and magazines ranges from sloppy to laughable.

  A couple of thoughts closely related to the mantra that a lie, told often enough, becomes the truth. What is classified as evolution of language is often merely the wildfire speed at which errors spread (I should of known better etc.)

  When, at school, we were introduced to the concept of unseasonal weather, it was emphasised that the wholly erroneous substitution of unseasonable was laughable since, if it meant anything at all, it was that the weather couldn?t have salt and pepper applied. One might think the last bastion of correctness in this instance might be weather forecasters, but no, almost all of them use the incorrect word. The BBC?s TV ad. trumpeting the weather app featured at one time a mobile ?phone screen displaying ?unseasonable?.

  At school we were warned against saying ?smarrawichoo? and the like, very particularly because sloppy speech leads to sloppy writing. The Americans have much to answer for in this regard eg. innernational. A high proportion of folk who make up our society talk a lot but write very little. When they do write (encouraged by far too much ?have your say? in my opinion) it is hardly surprising that what results resembles a phonetic representation of the way they speak their words.

  There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be correct.

  Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the point of banging on?

  Dave Newbitt.



  From: Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1 
  Sent: Monday, December 19, 2022 7:02 PM
  To: Brian Curtis 
  Cc: dave.mdv via Tech1 
  Subject: Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language

  You?re right there. Regrettably it?s become fashionable to drop the letter ?g?) at the end of words ending in ?ing? both on radio where Caris Matthew?s on R4s ?Add to Playlist? is one of the chief and for me the most irritating culprits - as is one in particular of the BBC1 continuity announcers who consistently does the same. I?d like to know what they do when helping their children to read. Do they tell them that in speaking our funny old language the ?g? is silent, whereas it has to be included when spelling or writing it, or what?  

  Geoff


    On 19 Dec 2022, at 18:21, Brian Curtis via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:


    ? 
    Can't even rely on the BBC for good English these days! 


    On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 16:24, Gary Critcher via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

      This caption was 'live' just now on News 24.
      For crying out loud, couldn't it have been taken down and changed? It's not that difficult for crying out loud.

         Gary
      -- 
      Tech1 mailing list
      Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
      http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

    -- 
    Tech1 mailing list
    Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
    http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 24 02:00:23 2022
From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 08:00:23 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <F1A0861E297E4E62A7EE22E1EAD52E22@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
	<A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<CAA=qGJ=_pL7WHJx0KuNTE0FUW6nt+4pC1Fp1M-ERoWfOB0=RuQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<F1A0861E297E4E62A7EE22E1EAD52E22@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <CAA0HHB1Y6g6hHtTBTLrLJZ2HxswEVbTba3Fq+eKieEC69ENd7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all, especially David and Keith,
You may like to know that most of the Tech Ops pages that I helped edit
used what I could remember from the Chicago Book of Style edition 13 - I
used it in my job before I retired.
Best regards Alec

Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections...

On Sat, 24 Dec 2022, 00:20 David Newbitt via Tech1, <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
wrote:

> A scholarly and professional commentary on the topic Keith, strongly
> reinforced by my inbox receiving no less than four copies of your post!
> From what you say it seems the OED is not altogether clear in its view so
> where does that leave us?
>
> I am still somewhat persuaded of the desirability of standardisation in
> language ? after all, historically significant figures have tried to issue
> guidance in pursuit of this goal. You point out that there are reference
> books which offer differing views, but where do these come from? Are they
> indicative of the variation in the extent to which their authors are
> willing to accept and go along with ?popular? departures from previously
> accepted rules? Once the existence of differing truths in a range of
> reference books is seen as acceptable then where is the limit? Ten sources?
> Or twenty?
>
> In my preceding paragraph, before penning ?the existence of differing
> truths? I initially wrote the phrase as ?existence of alternative truths?
> which I promptly rejected since alternative would have covered just two
> variants rather than several. I am of course aware that very regularly one
> reads copy referring to umpteen alternatives so I wonder will this too come
> to be permitted usage?
>
> A house in the main street of my village was once the home of H W Fowler,
> the fact suitably commemorated with blue plaque noting that he wrote MEU
> there. I wonder what he would have made of all this? I think the only
> certainty is that the debate will never end.
>
> Dave Newbitt.
>
> *From:* Keith Wicks via Tech1
> *Sent:* Friday, December 23, 2022 9:05 PM
> *To:* David Newbitt ; tech1 ; Brian Curtis ; Geoffrey Hawkes
> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
>
>
> I spent many years as a book editor and as a writer. As a result, I don?t
> hold any hard and fast rules about how language should be written. As a
> writer, I would usually be told which dictionary and style guide to use for
> a particular client and, as an editor, I would specify them myself if there
> was no particular house style to follow. So the right or wrong expression
> to use in any particular circumstances may simply depend on someone?s
> decision about which reference books to use.
>
>
> My Oxford English Dictionary program includes the following:
>
>
>
> *unseasonable*
>
>
> Not suited to, not in accordance with, the time or occasion; untimely,
> inopportune.
>
>
> Of weather: Not appropriate to the season of the year; esp. stormy,
> tempestuous. Also of days, seasons, etc., marked by such weather.
>
>
>
> Note that there is no mention here of seasoning (with salt and pepper),
> but the word season may sometimes refer to the act or time of impregnation,
> so it is easy to see why seasonable (and unseasonable) can reasonably be
> used to refer to matters associated with time. The OED gives examples of
> this usage starting from the 1400s.
>
>
> Interestingly, under the entry for *seasonable*, OED includes the
> following quote:
>
>
> *Erroneously used for seasonal*
>
>
>    1923 Glasgow Herald 20 Mar. 9 Persons engaged in seasonable trades in
> which the duration of seasonable employment is too short to enable them to
> qualify for benefit.    [1980 Listener 10 Jan. 51/3 Will the BBC please
> note that the word they want is ?seasonable?, not ?seasonal?. One has
> seasonable items like mince pies and carols; ?seasonal? is applied to
> rainfall and fluctuations in car sales, i.e., things that happen with the
> changing seasons.]
>
>
>
> The only thing that is certain is that language changes over time and if
> sufficient people use a word in a particular way, then that will become the
> established meaning. In the meantime, words will mean different things to
> different people.
>
>
> KW
>
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 12:10, David Newbitt via Tech1 <
> tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I find it difficult to know if the substantial removal of emphasis on the
>> correct use of English is anything I have a right to feel aggrieved about.
>> The debate has raged for as long as any of us can remember against a
>> background of ever greater departure from set rules designed to promote
>> clarity in written communication and avoidance of ambiguity.
>>
>> I would certainly not advocate discarding written work from intelligent
>> people on grounds of poor English (as would once have been common practice)
>> but I don?t think such people make good journalists unless effective
>> editorial oversight tidies up their offerings. A fair slice of published
>> copy as presented in newspapers and magazines ranges from sloppy to
>> laughable.
>>
>> A couple of thoughts closely related to the mantra that a lie, told often
>> enough, becomes the truth. What is classified as evolution of language is
>> often merely the wildfire speed at which errors spread (I should *of *known
>> better etc.)
>>
>> When, at school, we were introduced to the concept of unseasonal weather,
>> it was emphasised that the wholly erroneous substitution of*
>> unseasonable* was laughable since, if it meant anything at all, it was
>> that the weather couldn?t have salt and pepper applied. One might think the
>> last bastion of correctness in this instance might be weather forecasters,
>> but no, almost all of them use the incorrect word. The BBC?s TV ad.
>> trumpeting the weather app featured at one time a mobile ?phone screen
>> displaying ?unseasonable?.
>>
>> At school we were warned against saying ?smarrawichoo? and the like, very
>> particularly because sloppy speech leads to sloppy writing. The Americans
>> have much to answer for in this regard eg. *inner*national. A high
>> proportion of folk who make up our society talk a lot but write very
>> little. When they do write (encouraged by far too much ?have your say? in
>> my opinion) it is hardly surprising that what results resembles a phonetic
>> representation of the way they speak their words.
>>
>> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all
>> these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic
>> stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever
>> present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss
>> Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be
>> correct.
>>
>> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an
>> extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the
>> point of banging on?
>>
>> Dave Newbitt.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 19, 2022 7:02 PM
>> *To:* Brian Curtis
>> *Cc:* dave.mdv via Tech1
>> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
>>
>> You?re right there. Regrettably it?s become fashionable to drop the
>> letter ?g?) at the end of words ending in ?ing? both on radio where Caris
>> Matthew?s on R4s ?Add to Playlist? is one of the chief and for me the most
>> irritating culprits - as is one in particular of the BBC1 continuity
>> announcers who consistently does the same. I?d like to know what they do
>> when helping their children to read. Do they tell them that in speaking our
>> funny old language the ?g? is silent, whereas it has to be included when
>> spelling or writing it, or what?
>>
>> Geoff
>>
>> On 19 Dec 2022, at 18:21, Brian Curtis via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> Can't even rely on the BBC for good English these days!
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 16:24, Gary Critcher via Tech1 <
>> tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> This caption was 'live' just now on News 24.
>>> For crying out loud, couldn't it have been taken down and changed? It's
>>> not that difficult for crying out loud.
>>>
>>>    Gary
>>> --
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>>
>> --
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> --
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> --
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
> ------------------------------
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> --
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
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From alec.bray.2 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 24 02:06:44 2022
From: alec.bray.2 at gmail.com (Alec Bray)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 08:06:44 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <CAA0HHB1Y6g6hHtTBTLrLJZ2HxswEVbTba3Fq+eKieEC69ENd7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
	<A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<CAA=qGJ=_pL7WHJx0KuNTE0FUW6nt+4pC1Fp1M-ERoWfOB0=RuQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<F1A0861E297E4E62A7EE22E1EAD52E22@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<CAA0HHB1Y6g6hHtTBTLrLJZ2HxswEVbTba3Fq+eKieEC69ENd7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA0HHB2wgCi1VuwAGA9MA-eCWUnPKnR6ZAanp51RoeONAmVhMQ@mail.gmail.com>

MANUAL of Style --- sorry!!  It's now on a later edition... Alec

Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections...

On Sat, 24 Dec 2022, 08:00 Alec Bray, <alec.bray.2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all, especially David and Keith,
> You may like to know that most of the Tech Ops pages that I helped edit
> used what I could remember from the Chicago Book of Style edition 13 - I
> used it in my job before I retired.
> Best regards Alec
>
> Sent from my mobile phone. Apologies for any strange autocorrections...
>
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2022, 00:20 David Newbitt via Tech1, <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> A scholarly and professional commentary on the topic Keith, strongly
>> reinforced by my inbox receiving no less than four copies of your post!
>> From what you say it seems the OED is not altogether clear in its view so
>> where does that leave us?
>>
>> I am still somewhat persuaded of the desirability of standardisation in
>> language ? after all, historically significant figures have tried to issue
>> guidance in pursuit of this goal. You point out that there are reference
>> books which offer differing views, but where do these come from? Are they
>> indicative of the variation in the extent to which their authors are
>> willing to accept and go along with ?popular? departures from previously
>> accepted rules? Once the existence of differing truths in a range of
>> reference books is seen as acceptable then where is the limit? Ten sources?
>> Or twenty?
>>
>> In my preceding paragraph, before penning ?the existence of differing
>> truths? I initially wrote the phrase as ?existence of alternative truths?
>> which I promptly rejected since alternative would have covered just two
>> variants rather than several. I am of course aware that very regularly one
>> reads copy referring to umpteen alternatives so I wonder will this too come
>> to be permitted usage?
>>
>> A house in the main street of my village was once the home of H W Fowler,
>> the fact suitably commemorated with blue plaque noting that he wrote MEU
>> there. I wonder what he would have made of all this? I think the only
>> certainty is that the debate will never end.
>>
>> Dave Newbitt.
>>
>> *From:* Keith Wicks via Tech1
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 23, 2022 9:05 PM
>> *To:* David Newbitt ; tech1 ; Brian Curtis ; Geoffrey Hawkes
>> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
>>
>>
>> I spent many years as a book editor and as a writer. As a result, I don?t
>> hold any hard and fast rules about how language should be written. As a
>> writer, I would usually be told which dictionary and style guide to use for
>> a particular client and, as an editor, I would specify them myself if there
>> was no particular house style to follow. So the right or wrong expression
>> to use in any particular circumstances may simply depend on someone?s
>> decision about which reference books to use.
>>
>>
>> My Oxford English Dictionary program includes the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> *unseasonable*
>>
>>
>> Not suited to, not in accordance with, the time or occasion; untimely,
>> inopportune.
>>
>>
>> Of weather: Not appropriate to the season of the year; esp. stormy,
>> tempestuous. Also of days, seasons, etc., marked by such weather.
>>
>>
>>
>> Note that there is no mention here of seasoning (with salt and pepper),
>> but the word season may sometimes refer to the act or time of impregnation,
>> so it is easy to see why seasonable (and unseasonable) can reasonably be
>> used to refer to matters associated with time. The OED gives examples of
>> this usage starting from the 1400s.
>>
>>
>> Interestingly, under the entry for *seasonable*, OED includes the
>> following quote:
>>
>>
>> *Erroneously used for seasonal*
>>
>>
>>    1923 Glasgow Herald 20 Mar. 9 Persons engaged in seasonable trades in
>> which the duration of seasonable employment is too short to enable them to
>> qualify for benefit.    [1980 Listener 10 Jan. 51/3 Will the BBC please
>> note that the word they want is ?seasonable?, not ?seasonal?. One has
>> seasonable items like mince pies and carols; ?seasonal? is applied to
>> rainfall and fluctuations in car sales, i.e., things that happen with the
>> changing seasons.]
>>
>>
>>
>> The only thing that is certain is that language changes over time and if
>> sufficient people use a word in a particular way, then that will become the
>> established meaning. In the meantime, words will mean different things to
>> different people.
>>
>>
>> KW
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 12:10, David Newbitt via Tech1 <
>> tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> I find it difficult to know if the substantial removal of emphasis on
>>> the correct use of English is anything I have a right to feel aggrieved
>>> about. The debate has raged for as long as any of us can remember against a
>>> background of ever greater departure from set rules designed to promote
>>> clarity in written communication and avoidance of ambiguity.
>>>
>>> I would certainly not advocate discarding written work from intelligent
>>> people on grounds of poor English (as would once have been common practice)
>>> but I don?t think such people make good journalists unless effective
>>> editorial oversight tidies up their offerings. A fair slice of published
>>> copy as presented in newspapers and magazines ranges from sloppy to
>>> laughable.
>>>
>>> A couple of thoughts closely related to the mantra that a lie, told
>>> often enough, becomes the truth. What is classified as evolution of
>>> language is often merely the wildfire speed at which errors spread (I
>>> should *of *known better etc.)
>>>
>>> When, at school, we were introduced to the concept of unseasonal
>>> weather, it was emphasised that the wholly erroneous substitution of*
>>> unseasonable* was laughable since, if it meant anything at all, it was
>>> that the weather couldn?t have salt and pepper applied. One might think the
>>> last bastion of correctness in this instance might be weather forecasters,
>>> but no, almost all of them use the incorrect word. The BBC?s TV ad.
>>> trumpeting the weather app featured at one time a mobile ?phone screen
>>> displaying ?unseasonable?.
>>>
>>> At school we were warned against saying ?smarrawichoo? and the like,
>>> very particularly because sloppy speech leads to sloppy writing. The
>>> Americans have much to answer for in this regard eg. *inner*national. A
>>> high proportion of folk who make up our society talk a lot but write very
>>> little. When they do write (encouraged by far too much ?have your say? in
>>> my opinion) it is hardly surprising that what results resembles a phonetic
>>> representation of the way they speak their words.
>>>
>>> There has always been amongst academics a proportion who embrace all
>>> these things happily, arguing that those who don?t are just pedantic
>>> stick-in-the-muds. They may be right and of course there is the ever
>>> present affection which most of us have for dialect. I think I would miss
>>> Londoner?s talking in the present tense where the past tense would be
>>> correct.
>>>
>>> Spelling, punctuation and grammar have all changed in common usage to an
>>> extent I can?t see being reversed. In which case I ask myself, what is the
>>> point of banging on?
>>>
>>> Dave Newbitt.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Geoffrey Hawkes via Tech1
>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 19, 2022 7:02 PM
>>> *To:* Brian Curtis
>>> *Cc:* dave.mdv via Tech1
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
>>>
>>> You?re right there. Regrettably it?s become fashionable to drop the
>>> letter ?g?) at the end of words ending in ?ing? both on radio where Caris
>>> Matthew?s on R4s ?Add to Playlist? is one of the chief and for me the most
>>> irritating culprits - as is one in particular of the BBC1 continuity
>>> announcers who consistently does the same. I?d like to know what they do
>>> when helping their children to read. Do they tell them that in speaking our
>>> funny old language the ?g? is silent, whereas it has to be included when
>>> spelling or writing it, or what?
>>>
>>> Geoff
>>>
>>> On 19 Dec 2022, at 18:21, Brian Curtis via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> Can't even rely on the BBC for good English these days!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 16:24, Gary Critcher via Tech1 <
>>> tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This caption was 'live' just now on News 24.
>>>> For crying out loud, couldn't it have been taken down and changed? It's
>>>> not that difficult for crying out loud.
>>>>
>>>>    Gary
>>>> --
>>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> --
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>> --
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>>
>> ------------------------------
>> --
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
>> --
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
>
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From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Sat Dec 24 05:56:20 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 11:56:20 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <F1A0861E297E4E62A7EE22E1EAD52E22@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
	<A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<CAA=qGJ=_pL7WHJx0KuNTE0FUW6nt+4pC1Fp1M-ERoWfOB0=RuQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<F1A0861E297E4E62A7EE22E1EAD52E22@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <a6bac330-a0c9-4e42-b2d1-5545a081c58c@chriswoolf.co.uk>


On 24/12/2022 00:20, David Newbitt via Tech1 wrote:
> ...
> I am still somewhat persuaded of the desirability of standardisation 
> in language ? after all, historically significant figures have tried 
> to issue guidance in pursuit of this goal.
>
While standardisation of spelling is helpful, trying to hold to one form 
of grammar risks fossilising language, and also makes it almost 
impossible to use. The grammar used in formal documents, colloquial 
fiction, patents, songs, spoken English etc (let alone the variations 
added with different dialects) is always different, and would sound very 
stilted and strange if it wasn't.

Fowler did make an attempt at fixing grammar, but if you stick rigidly 
to his rules the English sounds very odd nowadays. Microsoft (and 
others)? have tried to impose a standardised version, if you let it 
correct grammar in a piece of text. It is always good fun taking a nice 
bit of writing and allowing a grammar-checker to have a go at it - you 
will almost always end up with something completely unreadable.

However none of the above excuses sloppy or inaccurate language - that's 
quite different.

Chris Woolf

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From waresound at msn.com  Sat Dec 24 12:26:45 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2022 18:26:45 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB1604E3F1D8F548217249F3E2A7EE9@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Ask her what she thinks of the Strictly judges? makeup. They seem to me to be plastered with layers of makeup leaving no ?modelling? whatsoever. Made infinitely worse by the hideous up-light from under the desktop.
When I was a GSA photography student donkeys? years ago, we were taught how to key, fill and backlight an object such as an orange, so that it had shape and texture, looking spherical, not flat. Amongst others, we were taught by Tony Armstrong Jones and David Bailey, and our course Head, Ifor Thomas. I came to the BBC with an ARPS and a City & Guilds First in Photography, but they put me in the Sound department! The good thing about that was that it meant that photography could be a hobby, not the job. And it still is.

On day one of my TO14 Evesham course, we were told exactly the same, requirement number 1 being ?to satisfy the technical requirements of the TV camera?. Well, video cameras (and monitors) have changed beyond recognition since then, but the fundamental rules still apply. The trick is to know the rules.
I can only assume that no-one actually looks at what it looks like on a quality monitor. Looking I n a mirror doesn?t cut the mustard.
I may be a Sound bod, but in that role, it?s easy to take a step and see where the imagery falls short.

Sound wise, don?t even get me going on badly placed personals. Throughout the Strictly series I didn?t see a single PSC shot that wouldn?t have been better on an overhead mic.
A pity, because in other respects, that show is spectacular.

Grumpy mode off now to say Happy Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.

Cheers as ever,
Nick.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

> On 23 Dec 2022, at 19:42, Geoff Fletcher via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> ?The lack of what were once professional standards drummed into us all is evident across the board. For example - my wife - ex LWT and Anglia TV Make-Up, always gets annoyed to see female presenters with their faces made up tanned but their chests and hands left a  pale white.
> I hate late fades and directors trying to re-invent the wheel on 2 ways by crabbing the. cameras around, and also dreadful quality pictures from computers and mobiles, and vertical format mobile footage -- among many other aspects of modern TV productions.
> But we are all dinosaurs now I guess.
> Geoff F
> 
>> On 23 Dec 2022, at 17:20, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> Wow - a good old Mk1 Vanguard. When these were new I was a front seat passenger in one when the upper wishbone pivot on the n/s front wheel detached itself somehow and the wheel assumed a horizontal rather than vertical attitude. We stopped rather abruptly and walked to the 'Rest and Be Thankful' at Wheddon Cross on Exmoor while the local garage retrieved the car. I was just a schoolboy and found it all quite exciting - in those days lads my age didn't get to see the inside of many pubs!
>> 
>> Dave Newbitt.
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Graeme Wall via Tech1
>> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 5:02 PM
>> To: dave.mdv
>> Cc: Tech ops
>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] "MOTHERLAND" Trail on BBC 23/12/22
>> 
>> Here?s a Standard:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 23 Dec 2022, at 16:58, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Standards, what are they? Cheers, Dave
>>> --
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> 
>> ?
>> Graeme Wall
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

From bernie833 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 25 03:57:56 2022
From: bernie833 at gmail.com (Bernard Newnham)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2022 09:57:56 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Happy Christmas and PDF
Message-ID: <8aaa3bb3-e115-aa17-7c34-2979df78665f@ntlworld.com>

If you haven't yet enjoyed your copy of the BBC Pensioners Association 
Christmas News Letter - edited by Mr A Barber - you might enjoy the 
attached PDF

cheers

B
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From bernie833 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 06:22:13 2022
From: bernie833 at gmail.com (Bernard Newnham)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 12:22:13 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] New PDF
Message-ID: <71a54ffc-0a79-617f-fc6e-0c7f8cab6273@gmail.com>

Something fouled up yesterday, resulting in distinct crappinness, so 
I've tried again

Attached

Happy Boxing Day

B
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Mon Dec 26 16:52:56 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 22:52:56 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Poor use of the English Language
In-Reply-To: <a6bac330-a0c9-4e42-b2d1-5545a081c58c@chriswoolf.co.uk>
References: <CAGVa-Qc1v1AA8SMSF5iYLFrbMWAL2REeipGZnaqimAD0oyr1vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6001D40E-0E0B-4345-AAA1-581E27FFB652@gmail.com>
	<A74C167E856E44EDAC3D10EA758B89EB@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<CAA=qGJ=_pL7WHJx0KuNTE0FUW6nt+4pC1Fp1M-ERoWfOB0=RuQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<F1A0861E297E4E62A7EE22E1EAD52E22@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<a6bac330-a0c9-4e42-b2d1-5545a081c58c@chriswoolf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <718c92cc-2bce-91e2-1c5c-b13bacce9b56@amps.net>

I have a hatred of American spelling, which because Microsoft is US, 
that in their world is the correct version.
They cannot spell 'theatre' 'colour' etc, and have trouble with 'aluminium'.

I always had difficulty with their 'gotten' until a wiser chap pointed 
out that the English that developed
in America was derived from the Pilgrim Fathers from the south west of 
Britain, who spoke thus.

A somewhat sad story:
A delightful producer lass from ABC Sports NY, with whom I worked many 
times, told me that her grandfather
immigrated to the States many years ago, and on arriving at Ellis 
Island, was asked his name.
Not speaking English he constantly uttered 'deutsch' (meaning I'm 
German, speak German to me).

Losing patience, the immigration official merely wrote Deutsch on the 
form, so poor granddaughter
Emily has no idea of her real family name.

Pat H

On 24/12/2022 11:56, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote:
>
> While standardisation of spelling is helpful, trying to hold to one 
> form of grammar risks fossilising language, and also makes it almost 
> impossible to use. The grammar used in formal documents, colloquial 
> fiction, patents, songs, spoken English etc (let alone the variations 
> added with different dialects) is always different, and would sound 
> very stilted and strange if it wasn't.
>
> Fowler did make an attempt at fixing grammar, but if you stick rigidly 
> to his rules the English sounds very odd nowadays. Microsoft (and 
> others)? have tried to impose a standardised version, if you let it 
> correct grammar in a piece of text. It is always good fun taking a 
> nice bit of writing and allowing a grammar-checker to have a go at it 
> - you will almost always end up with something completely unreadable.
>
> However none of the above excuses sloppy or inaccurate language - 
> that's quite different.
>
> Chris Woolf
>
>
>
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Tue Dec 27 05:25:08 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 11:25:08 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Club music
Message-ID: <84e51493-7eb1-0c28-fe7f-550747530550@amps.net>

This is not a moan (Oh no! when is Pat not moaning??)

Having just celebrated my 80^th birthday, I was reminded of an earlier 
occasion when a lass decided that we should go to the Edmundo Ros club 
in Regent Street,
as she knew I loved Latin American music. Mr. Ros was fronting the band, 
but I felt that it was a bit tame compared to records and broadcasts.
Mentioned this to the front of house guy. ?Oh sir, we augment for 
broadcasts!?
i.e. it?s decent session musicians for that!
Bit of a let down, really.

Similar to Billy Cotton in front of his band, but it was Harry Rab in 
the wings of the TVT, waving the baton.

Pat
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Tue Dec 27 06:00:24 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 12:00:24 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] More music stories
Message-ID: <0ac8ca20-4def-47dd-7d37-402310ccff93@amps.net>

I had the pleasure of working with two of the finest music mixers at TVC.
Len Shorey, who taught me how to balance a jazz band - stood me in good 
stead
when I got a film job from the London Palladium with the Pasadena Roof 
Orchestra.
Hugh Barker, made a super job on Duke Ellington Orchestra from TC4.
I went round all the control rooms, collecting up spare TR90 recorders
to make as many first generation tapes as I could.
Rec'd out virgin tapes from stores.
(At that time, other than for original music shows, only second use tape
was decreed to be used. Any splices had been cement joined, which never
ran smoothly over the record heads). Stupid BBC, trying to save money.
Run by bean counters.
I used to check each reel and re-make with tape splices.

Hugh said to me, that he would have loved to have had Bert Kaempfert's
band on the end of his mikes!

Happy New Year!

Pat
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From crew13 at vincent68.plus.com  Tue Dec 27 06:22:08 2022
From: crew13 at vincent68.plus.com (crew13)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 12:22:08 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] BBC Pensions Calendar
Message-ID: <4673774E-6C14-445B-BABD-9BC7CA65A79B@vincent68.plus.com>

Do we get one this year?

John V


From david.jasma at sky.com  Tue Dec 27 06:38:28 2022
From: david.jasma at sky.com (david.jasma)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 12:38:28 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] BBC Pensions Calendar
In-Reply-To: <4673774E-6C14-445B-BABD-9BC7CA65A79B@vincent68.plus.com>
Message-ID: <1659262508.529884.1672144710493@sky.com>

Haven't seen it yet, but the post has been very erratic due to the strikes.Dave BuckleySent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------From: crew13 via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> Date: 27/12/2022  12:22  (GMT+00:00) To: Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk Subject: [Tech1] BBC Pensions Calendar Do we get one this year?John V-- Tech1 mailing listTech1 at tech-ops.co.ukhttp://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From relong at btinternet.com  Tue Dec 27 07:06:38 2022
From: relong at btinternet.com (Roger Long)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 13:06:38 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] More music stories
In-Reply-To: <0ac8ca20-4def-47dd-7d37-402310ccff93@amps.net>
References: <0ac8ca20-4def-47dd-7d37-402310ccff93@amps.net>
Message-ID: <9090D94A-4E3C-4DAC-B9CF-5BFFB7720F6D@btinternet.com>

I worked with Hugh Barker with a film crew out of TFS
A first I think
It was for Jazz 625 Duke Ellington
Duke selecting a Steinway at Chappels showroom in Bond St ?
He turned up with a Nagra and I boomed for him .
Who fixed that I wonder
Stan Dorfman?

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Dec 2022, at 12:00, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> I had the pleasure of working with two of the finest music mixers at TVC.
> Len Shorey, who taught me how to balance a jazz band - stood me in good stead
> when I got a film job from the London Palladium with the Pasadena Roof Orchestra.
> Hugh Barker, made a super job on Duke Ellington Orchestra from TC4.
> I went round all the control rooms, collecting up spare TR90 recorders
> to make as many first generation tapes as I could.
> Rec'd out virgin tapes from stores.
> (At that time, other than for original music shows, only second use tape
> was decreed to be used. Any splices had been cement joined, which never
> ran smoothly over the record heads). Stupid BBC, trying to save money.
> Run by bean counters.
> I used to check each reel and re-make with tape splices. 
> 
> Hugh said to me, that he would have loved to have had Bert Kaempfert's
> band on the end of his mikes!
> 
> Happy New Year!
> 
> Pat
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 08:52:58 2022
From: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com (geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 14:52:58 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
Message-ID: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>

Yesterday afternoon I watched part of the film Funny Girl with Barbra
Streisand which was shot in 1968 well before the tiny personal mics of today
were invented and I wondered how they got the lip syc on her songs so
accurate?  Is the sound picked up live on boom mics as I assume was the case
for dialogue or is it post dubbed and if so it must take a lot of skill on
the part of the performer to do get it right. On TOTP if the artist(s) were
miming, the sound was simply pumped out loudly from the floor speakers and
it was down to them to sing in sync, which in my experience, some did more
expertly than others.

 

I'm sure one or other of you veteran sound guys, especially any like Pat who
worked on films as well as tv will know the answer,

 

Geoff

 

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From dave.mdv at btinternet.com  Wed Dec 28 13:09:23 2022
From: dave.mdv at btinternet.com (dave.mdv)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 19:09:23 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
References: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dce0667d-5937-1e39-bcc9-9e26cf74a56b@btinternet.com>

AFAIK, the majority of US filmms are post-dubbed, they don't seem to be 
able to do live outdoor sound like OBs did. One famous case was 'My Fair 
Lady' where Julie Andrews, who did the stage show, wasn't picked for the 
screen role which was given to the more waif-like Audrey Hepburn. The 
problem was that she couldn't sing so all of her songs were dubbed by 
another lady, but not Julie! I saw a US film sequence with the actors 
walked round Central Park lake in NY, and every time they spoke the 
background noise suddenly shot up! Cheers, Dave


From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Wed Dec 28 13:22:58 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 19:22:58 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <dce0667d-5937-1e39-bcc9-9e26cf74a56b@btinternet.com>
References: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
	<dce0667d-5937-1e39-bcc9-9e26cf74a56b@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <5D6C0FF0-0FB9-48B1-9E53-703714972BAB@icloud.com>

Marni Nixon did the singing in the film

> On 28 Dec 2022, at 19:09, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> AFAIK, the majority of US filmms are post-dubbed, they don't seem to be able to do live outdoor sound like OBs did. One famous case was 'My Fair Lady' where Julie Andrews, who did the stage show, wasn't picked for the screen role which was given to the more waif-like Audrey Hepburn. The problem was that she couldn't sing so all of her songs were dubbed by another lady, but not Julie! I saw a US film sequence with the actors walked round Central Park lake in NY, and every time they spoke the background noise suddenly shot up! Cheers, Dave
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From relong at btinternet.com  Wed Dec 28 13:33:29 2022
From: relong at btinternet.com (Roger E Long)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 19:33:29 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <5D6C0FF0-0FB9-48B1-9E53-703714972BAB@icloud.com>
References: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
	<dce0667d-5937-1e39-bcc9-9e26cf74a56b@btinternet.com>
	<5D6C0FF0-0FB9-48B1-9E53-703714972BAB@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <6B8A51CF-BEA6-4CFA-99AB-7DF36439BB70@btinternet.com>

Hollywood Lip Syncing has always been good
They rehearse and get it right
Also talented dialog editors nudge slipped sync carefully
I watch early Fred Astaire musicals where the singing was live,  dancing ,with band oov  in the studio, brilliant stuff
Singing to playback is a real art , some can , most cant.
The normal give away was the difference in SQ between dialog and the pre recorded music.
They can now match it exactly.
And dialog is live not ADR.
> On 28 Dec 2022, at 19:22, Graeme Wall via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Marni Nixon did the singing in the film
> 
>> On 28 Dec 2022, at 19:09, dave.mdv via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> AFAIK, the majority of US filmms are post-dubbed, they don't seem to be able to do live outdoor sound like OBs did. One famous case was 'My Fair Lady' where Julie Andrews, who did the stage show, wasn't picked for the screen role which was given to the more waif-like Audrey Hepburn. The problem was that she couldn't sing so all of her songs were dubbed by another lady, but not Julie! I saw a US film sequence with the actors walked round Central Park lake in NY, and every time they spoke the background noise suddenly shot up! Cheers, Dave
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> 
> ? 
> Graeme Wall
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From pat.heigham at amps.net  Thu Dec 29 03:30:55 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 09:30:55 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
References: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e2f6be8c-abc8-a51c-3b78-584c9e4f541d@amps.net>


Replying as requestd!

A discourse from my experience is attached as a Word.docx

Hope this might help!

Cheers

Pat

On 28/12/2022 14:52, geoff.hawkes134--- via Tech1 wrote:
>
> Yesterday afternoon I watched part of the film Funny Girl with Barbra 
> Streisand which was shot in 1968 well before the tiny personal mics of 
> today were invented and I wondered how they got the lip syc on her 
> songs so accurate? ?Is the sound picked up live on boom mics as I 
> assume was the case for dialogue or is it post dubbed and if so it 
> must take a lot of skill on the part of the performer to do get it 
> right. On TOTP if the artist(s) were miming, the sound was simply 
> pumped out loudly from the floor speakers and it was down to them to 
> sing in sync, which in my experience, some did more expertly than others.
>
> I?m sure one or other of you veteran sound guys, especially any like 
> Pat who worked on films as well as tv will know the answer,
>
> *Geoff*
>
>
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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Thu Dec 29 03:53:20 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 09:53:20 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <e2f6be8c-abc8-a51c-3b78-584c9e4f541d@amps.net>
References: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
	<e2f6be8c-abc8-a51c-3b78-584c9e4f541d@amps.net>
Message-ID: <08D18B0B139D4FADA73F794528BBA234@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Found that really interesting Pat ? well done. Original innovatory stuff in there you can be well pleased with.

Dave Newbitt.

From: Pat Heigham via Tech1 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2022 9:30 AM
To: geoff.hawkes134 at gmail.com ; tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies



Replying as requestd!

A discourse from my experience is attached as a Word.docx

Hope this might help!

Cheers

Pat


On 28/12/2022 14:52, geoff.hawkes134--- via Tech1 wrote:

  Yesterday afternoon I watched part of the film Funny Girl with Barbra Streisand which was shot in 1968 well before the tiny personal mics of today were invented and I wondered how they got the lip syc on her songs so accurate?  Is the sound picked up live on boom mics as I assume was the case for dialogue or is it post dubbed and if so it must take a lot of skill on the part of the performer to do get it right. On TOTP if the artist(s) were miming, the sound was simply pumped out loudly from the floor speakers and it was down to them to sing in sync, which in my experience, some did more expertly than others.

   

  I?m sure one or other of you veteran sound guys, especially any like Pat who worked on films as well as tv will know the answer,

   

  Geoff

   


   


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Thu Dec 29 05:56:13 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 11:56:13 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <08D18B0B139D4FADA73F794528BBA234@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
	<e2f6be8c-abc8-a51c-3b78-584c9e4f541d@amps.net>
	<08D18B0B139D4FADA73F794528BBA234@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <aad7736f-95fe-cf90-dc87-c8ab1f2c3ea5@amps.net>

Another spiel, attached.
Pat

On 29/12/2022 09:53, David Newbitt wrote:
> Found that really interesting Pat ? well done. Original innovatory 
> stuff in there you can be well pleased with.
> Dave Newbitt.
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From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Thu Dec 29 08:28:17 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 14:28:17 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <aad7736f-95fe-cf90-dc87-c8ab1f2c3ea5@amps.net>
References: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
	<e2f6be8c-abc8-a51c-3b78-584c9e4f541d@amps.net>
	<08D18B0B139D4FADA73F794528BBA234@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<aad7736f-95fe-cf90-dc87-c8ab1f2c3ea5@amps.net>
Message-ID: <f01e6aac-492a-0564-da29-9cc6a41b8036@chriswoolf.co.uk>


On 29/12/2022 11:56, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:

...This taught me at least one thing ? it was plain that the imported 
sound crew hadn?t a clue as to how the equipment
actually worked....

By and large the US film and TV industry has had no equivalent to the 
BBC, ITV and NFTS training schemes for most of its life. Heavy unionism, 
and nepotistic entry to the industry meant that users learnt a craft, 
but virtually none of the engineering that supported it.? You are quite 
correct that the norm is to "not have a clue".

Working on trade shows in the US, touring studios etc I was stunned by 
how little technical knowledge was present - they almost all copied a 
process, or a work pattern, (and got by, because it had been done 
before) but had almost no understanding of why it worked.

This frequently showed up most clearly in sync and TC, because these 
have always been subjects where the interplay of engineering, work-flow 
and craft were most critical, and least understood. Go to a lecture in 
Europe on TC, stereo stage widths, surround techniques, digital signal 
handling etc, and you would regularly find a couple of hundred every-day 
film and TV craft folk attending, and understanding what was being 
talked about - in the US, events of the same type rarely happened, 
because you would probably only find three souls who it would mean 
anything to.

The sad bit is that with the demise of most training, the increasing use 
of software to "mend" the mistakes of incompetent, unskilled users, and 
the tolerance of poor sound by productions (mainly because lighting and 
cameras can't deal with poles and booms mow), we are dropping to the 
same level of de-skilling in the UK. I'm a great supporter of the 
freelance world, but it makes learning the (increasing) technical 
complexities of the business very hard.

Perhaps the hardest problem is that, once upon a time, the more elderly 
craft exponents moved to training schemes to teach newcomers. That isn't 
a useful approach nowadays since the engineering, and basic techniques, 
have changed too radically. We really do need to institute a more 
radical level of training, with a? thoroughly solid engineering 
background. Given the complexity of digital signal handling and 
processing this is going to need a slightly more academic approach than 
has been acceptable in the past.

Chris Woolf



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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Thu Dec 29 09:24:57 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 15:24:57 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <f01e6aac-492a-0564-da29-9cc6a41b8036@chriswoolf.co.uk>
References: <002e01d91acc$13ac4d90$3b04e8b0$@gmail.com>
	<e2f6be8c-abc8-a51c-3b78-584c9e4f541d@amps.net>
	<08D18B0B139D4FADA73F794528BBA234@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<aad7736f-95fe-cf90-dc87-c8ab1f2c3ea5@amps.net>
	<f01e6aac-492a-0564-da29-9cc6a41b8036@chriswoolf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <462ad32a-8a2a-e004-6691-535fdef8692f@amps.net>

Hooray, Chris - you have encapsulated exactly what I have encountered.

The BBC training was exemplary - the physics of how mics worked etc was 
tantamount to approaching
a particular situation. For instance, you wouldn't use a garden spade to 
change a tap washer
though some cowboy outfits would try!

I was on a picture as boom op, based in Shepperton, the first opening 
sequence was filmed in Georgia USA.

I was not permitted to work there, but the mixer was. He was provided 
with the next available sound guy
from the union, but he was a rock group roadie, not a film boom op!

I re-attach the story of? 'On a Clear Day' which shocked me at the time, 
and I had a huge job to convince
the US crew that I _did_ know what I was talking about - because of 
their lack of understanding and knowledge.

On a film in Paris, my mixer was off sick, one day. A replacement sound 
guy was pulled in as mixer, and my
poorly chap insisted that I still did the boom, for continuity, as if 
the mike is not in the right position,
then it's go home time!
Apropos of that, before he arrived, I covered four hander, underneath 
the Eiffel Tower, single handed,
with just the Nagra and a pole!

'Fiddler' won an Oscar for Sound, but I did feel that the judges were 
probably influenced by the music,
rather than the live sound pick up, very nearly 100% useable.

Ah! Well! Happy memories.

Pat



On 29/12/2022 14:28, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote:
>
>
> On 29/12/2022 11:56, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>
> ...This taught me at least one thing ? it was plain that the imported 
> sound crew hadn?t a clue as to how the equipment
> actually worked....
>
> By and large the US film and TV industry has had no equivalent to the 
> BBC, ITV and NFTS training schemes for most of its life. Heavy 
> unionism, and nepotistic entry to the industry meant that users learnt 
> a craft, but virtually none of the engineering that supported it.? You 
> are quite correct that the norm is to "not have a clue".
>
> Working on trade shows in the US, touring studios etc I was stunned by 
> how little technical knowledge was present - they almost all copied a 
> process, or a work pattern, (and got by, because it had been done 
> before) but had almost no understanding of why it worked.
>
> This frequently showed up most clearly in sync and TC, because these 
> have always been subjects where the interplay of engineering, 
> work-flow and craft were most critical, and least understood. Go to a 
> lecture in Europe on TC, stereo stage widths, surround techniques, 
> digital signal handling etc, and you would regularly find a couple of 
> hundred every-day film and TV craft folk attending, and understanding 
> what was being talked about - in the US, events of the same type 
> rarely happened, because you would probably only find three souls who 
> it would mean anything to.
>
> The sad bit is that with the demise of most training, the increasing 
> use of software to "mend" the mistakes of incompetent, unskilled 
> users, and the tolerance of poor sound by productions (mainly because 
> lighting and cameras can't deal with poles and booms mow), we are 
> dropping to the same level of de-skilling in the UK. I'm a great 
> supporter of the freelance world, but it makes learning the 
> (increasing) technical complexities of the business very hard.
>
> Perhaps the hardest problem is that, once upon a time, the more 
> elderly craft exponents moved to training schemes to teach newcomers. 
> That isn't a useful approach nowadays since the engineering, and basic 
> techniques, have changed too radically. We really do need to institute 
> a more radical level of training, with a? thoroughly solid engineering 
> background. Given the complexity of digital signal handling and 
> processing this is going to need a slightly more academic approach 
> than has been acceptable in the past.
>
> Chris Woolf
>
>
>
>
>
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From alanaudio at me.com  Thu Dec 29 10:46:50 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 16:46:50 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <f01e6aac-492a-0564-da29-9cc6a41b8036@chriswoolf.co.uk>
References: <f01e6aac-492a-0564-da29-9cc6a41b8036@chriswoolf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E661730C-D78E-4341-BB7D-AFD2C27EDF01@me.com>

I did a series of conferences from different countries around the globe each year.  There was a lot of remote involvement requiring satellites and communications over telephone lines.  Previous series had been a bit of a technical disaster, which led to Colin Callow becoming involved and he decided that broadcast crews would be better suited to the task than the typical conference crews in those days.

In Vancouver, we were required to use local crews rather than our British crew. The local sound guys didn?t have experience of things like telephone balance units, modern radio mics, in ear monitors or even MiniDisk recorders. I gave them a plugging list for the multi core cable boxes and started setting up the gear around the mixing desk.  It was quite some distance from the control room to the hall, so it was hard to keep an eye on what they were actually doing.  It soon became clear that they were not plugging up stuff the way specified, but were plugging things into different places for strange reasons.  I had to make it clear that a plugging list is not the start of a negotiation, it?s a detailed list of exactly what will be going where and that nothing gets changed without consulting me and having a good reason for it being different ( such as a cable fault ). My plugging list had everything in a logical order and was usually the same for each venue, so if there was an emergency, I wouldn?t need to check the paperwork, I knew where everything should be.

The crew didn?t let on when they weren?t familiar with gear, they thought they could just figure things out, but of course a lot of modern gear is too complex for that sort of approach.  In the end, Colin hired a local sound supervisor from Canadian television who directly oversaw the stage crew, ensuring that they were doing what they were supposed to do and to identify any areas where they weren?t familiar with the equipment. Fortunately he was familiar with most of the gear and learned quickly if he asked about anything unfamiliar.

As for technical training in Britain, obviously I?m a beneficiary of the BBC?s training scheme and I rate it very highly.  I?m also aware that in the freelance world, formal training is almost non-existent.  You mostly learn by looking over the shoulder of somebody who already knows. There are some universities and training colleges which train people for broadcast industries, but I haven?t been too impressed with the general level of suitability of the people emerging from these courses. Obviously some excellent ones come through the system, but they do seem to be something of a minority.

When Audiofile was the big thing, I paid to go on a course with AMS to learn how to use it properly. I?m not aware of many, if any, freelancers who have paid for courses out of their own money to learn to operate gear. 

The nearest thing most will get to proper training these days is when they become a staffer for a big OB facility company or studio. They do get to be guided by more experienced people and have the time to become familiar with the equipment.  Few of those companies have formal training schemes.  One facility company used to, and still might make a big song and dance about partnering with a local media college to offer broadcast training, but a cynic might regard it as them having identified a source of cheap labour, without much formal training taking place.

I have a friend who is a careers advisor for schools.  She is often asked how youngsters can best get into a career behind the cameras.  The standard advice is to either become a runner and work your way up, or to go off to somewhere like Ravensbourne. My suggestion was that she might direct pupils towards the busier equipment hire companies.  They will have all the latest gear, offering opportunities to become familiar with it, but more importantly, they get to see which companies are frequently hiring it and if they get involved with delivering equipment to those clients, they can start to establish a relationship with those companies with a view to eventually applying for a job with them.

Looking back, I think we were incredibly fortunate to have been given the opportunities that we had as youngsters. We probably didn?t think so at the time, but nothing comparable is available to people of a similar age these days.

Alan



> On 29 Dec 2022, at 14:29, Chris Woolf via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> On 29/12/2022 11:56, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
> 
> ...This taught me at least one thing ? it was plain that the imported sound crew hadn?t a clue as to how the equipment
> actually worked....
> 
> By and large the US film and TV industry has had no equivalent to the BBC, ITV and NFTS training schemes for most of its life. Heavy unionism, and nepotistic entry to the industry meant that users learnt a craft, but virtually none of the engineering that supported it.  You are quite correct that the norm is to "not have a clue".
> 
> Working on trade shows in the US, touring studios etc I was stunned by how little technical knowledge was present - they almost all copied a process, or a work pattern, (and got by, because it had been done before) but had almost no understanding of why it worked.
> 
> This frequently showed up most clearly in sync and TC, because these have always been subjects where the interplay of engineering, work-flow and craft were most critical, and least understood. Go to a lecture in Europe on TC, stereo stage widths, surround techniques, digital signal handling etc, and you would regularly find a couple of hundred every-day film and TV craft folk attending, and understanding what was being talked about - in the US, events of the same type rarely happened, because you would probably only find three souls who it would mean anything to.
> 
> The sad bit is that with the demise of most training, the increasing use of software to "mend" the mistakes of incompetent, unskilled users, and the tolerance of poor sound by productions (mainly because lighting and cameras can't deal with poles and booms mow), we are dropping to the same level of de-skilling in the UK. I'm a great supporter of the freelance world, but it makes learning the (increasing) technical complexities of the business very hard.
> 
> Perhaps the hardest problem is that, once upon a time, the more elderly craft exponents moved to training schemes to teach newcomers. That isn't a useful approach nowadays since the engineering, and basic techniques, have changed too radically. We really do need to institute a more radical level of training, with a  thoroughly solid engineering background. Given the complexity of digital signal handling and processing this is going to need a slightly more academic approach than has been acceptable in the past.
> 
> Chris Woolf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From relong at btinternet.com  Thu Dec 29 13:52:28 2022
From: relong at btinternet.com (Roger Long)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 19:52:28 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <E661730C-D78E-4341-BB7D-AFD2C27EDF01@me.com>
References: <E661730C-D78E-4341-BB7D-AFD2C27EDF01@me.com>
Message-ID: <821E0700-47BF-450F-BB87-97C4145D34F1@btinternet.com>

I  also advise new entrants to work for dry hire companies and learn the latest kit
I recommend  Films of 59 in Bristol
They have state of the art Nat hist kit and top  Sony and Arri cameras for big dramas
The Nation Film School is great for some dop / editors / dubbing mixers/ gaffer?s but out in the van delivering kit to location and meeting movers and shakers is a wonderous and demanding challenge
I also commend Pink Noise Systems for the latest doco kit and current thinking for production shooting 
They are v helpful to student film making
As for U S crews Hollywood and documentary is a strange beast
We were shooting a wild mustang round up in the Sierra Nevada for the Horse whisper  doco
3 crews on the ground , our dop up in a Jet Ranger with a top gyro mount
The ground crews would not shoot until given a stop by the dop who was 20 miles away?
Sent from my iPhone

> On 29 Dec 2022, at 16:47, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> I did a series of conferences from different countries around the globe each year.  There was a lot of remote involvement requiring satellites and communications over telephone lines.  Previous series had been a bit of a technical disaster, which led to Colin Callow becoming involved and he decided that broadcast crews would be better suited to the task than the typical conference crews in those days.
> 
> In Vancouver, we were required to use local crews rather than our British crew. The local sound guys didn?t have experience of things like telephone balance units, modern radio mics, in ear monitors or even MiniDisk recorders. I gave them a plugging list for the multi core cable boxes and started setting up the gear around the mixing desk.  It was quite some distance from the control room to the hall, so it was hard to keep an eye on what they were actually doing.  It soon became clear that they were not plugging up stuff the way specified, but were plugging things into different places for strange reasons.  I had to make it clear that a plugging list is not the start of a negotiation, it?s a detailed list of exactly what will be going where and that nothing gets changed without consulting me and having a good reason for it being different ( such as a cable fault ). My plugging list had everything in a logical order and was usually the same for each venue, so if there was an emergency, I wouldn?t need to check the paperwork, I knew where everything should be.
> 
> The crew didn?t let on when they weren?t familiar with gear, they thought they could just figure things out, but of course a lot of modern gear is too complex for that sort of approach.  In the end, Colin hired a local sound supervisor from Canadian television who directly oversaw the stage crew, ensuring that they were doing what they were supposed to do and to identify any areas where they weren?t familiar with the equipment. Fortunately he was familiar with most of the gear and learned quickly if he asked about anything unfamiliar.
> 
> As for technical training in Britain, obviously I?m a beneficiary of the BBC?s training scheme and I rate it very highly.  I?m also aware that in the freelance world, formal training is almost non-existent.  You mostly learn by looking over the shoulder of somebody who already knows. There are some universities and training colleges which train people for broadcast industries, but I haven?t been too impressed with the general level of suitability of the people emerging from these courses. Obviously some excellent ones come through the system, but they do seem to be something of a minority.
> 
> When Audiofile was the big thing, I paid to go on a course with AMS to learn how to use it properly. I?m not aware of many, if any, freelancers who have paid for courses out of their own money to learn to operate gear. 
> 
> The nearest thing most will get to proper training these days is when they become a staffer for a big OB facility company or studio. They do get to be guided by more experienced people and have the time to become familiar with the equipment.  Few of those companies have formal training schemes.  One facility company used to, and still might make a big song and dance about partnering with a local media college to offer broadcast training, but a cynic might regard it as them having identified a source of cheap labour, without much formal training taking place.
> 
> I have a friend who is a careers advisor for schools.  She is often asked how youngsters can best get into a career behind the cameras.  The standard advice is to either become a runner and work your way up, or to go off to somewhere like Ravensbourne. My suggestion was that she might direct pupils towards the busier equipment hire companies.  They will have all the latest gear, offering opportunities to become familiar with it, but more importantly, they get to see which companies are frequently hiring it and if they get involved with delivering equipment to those clients, they can start to establish a relationship with those companies with a view to eventually applying for a job with them.
> 
> Looking back, I think we were incredibly fortunate to have been given the opportunities that we had as youngsters. We probably didn?t think so at the time, but nothing comparable is available to people of a similar age these days.
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
>>> On 29 Dec 2022, at 14:29, Chris Woolf via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> 
>> 
>> On 29/12/2022 11:56, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>> 
>> ...This taught me at least one thing ? it was plain that the imported sound crew hadn?t a clue as to how the equipment
>> actually worked....
>> 
>> By and large the US film and TV industry has had no equivalent to the BBC, ITV and NFTS training schemes for most of its life. Heavy unionism, and nepotistic entry to the industry meant that users learnt a craft, but virtually none of the engineering that supported it.  You are quite correct that the norm is to "not have a clue".
>> 
>> Working on trade shows in the US, touring studios etc I was stunned by how little technical knowledge was present - they almost all copied a process, or a work pattern, (and got by, because it had been done before) but had almost no understanding of why it worked.
>> 
>> This frequently showed up most clearly in sync and TC, because these have always been subjects where the interplay of engineering, work-flow and craft were most critical, and least understood. Go to a lecture in Europe on TC, stereo stage widths, surround techniques, digital signal handling etc, and you would regularly find a couple of hundred every-day film and TV craft folk attending, and understanding what was being talked about - in the US, events of the same type rarely happened, because you would probably only find three souls who it would mean anything to.
>> 
>> The sad bit is that with the demise of most training, the increasing use of software to "mend" the mistakes of incompetent, unskilled users, and the tolerance of poor sound by productions (mainly because lighting and cameras can't deal with poles and booms mow), we are dropping to the same level of de-skilling in the UK. I'm a great supporter of the freelance world, but it makes learning the (increasing) technical complexities of the business very hard.
>> 
>> Perhaps the hardest problem is that, once upon a time, the more elderly craft exponents moved to training schemes to teach newcomers. That isn't a useful approach nowadays since the engineering, and basic techniques, have changed too radically. We really do need to institute a more radical level of training, with a  thoroughly solid engineering background. Given the complexity of digital signal handling and processing this is going to need a slightly more academic approach than has been acceptable in the past.
>> 
>> Chris Woolf
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From mibridge at mac.com  Thu Dec 29 14:26:30 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 20:26:30 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <821E0700-47BF-450F-BB87-97C4145D34F1@btinternet.com>
References: <E661730C-D78E-4341-BB7D-AFD2C27EDF01@me.com>
	<821E0700-47BF-450F-BB87-97C4145D34F1@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <268FC394-1A28-4AC9-B617-EBC6EC06B4BD@mac.com>

This discussion reminds me of an incident during the LA Olympics in 1984. Before the games started, we were visiting venues to check commentators? positions and at one I was getting what could only have been a howl-round on feedback to commentators. A visit to the commentary control room elicited a response from a young lady fresh out of high school, to the effect that they had been checking feeds with tone earlier that morning and, even though they had killed the tone source some hours before I arrived, it was probably still going around the system! I didn?t bother to engage in further conversation!

I can?t recall how the problem was resolved, but it was definitely not down to tone! 

Mike G

> On 29 Dec 2022, at 19:52, Roger Long via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I  also advise new entrants to work for dry hire companies and learn the latest kit
> I recommend  Films of 59 in Bristol
> They have state of the art Nat hist kit and top  Sony and Arri cameras for big dramas
> The Nation Film School is great for some dop / editors / dubbing mixers/ gaffer?s but out in the van delivering kit to location and meeting movers and shakers is a wonderous and demanding challenge
> I also commend Pink Noise Systems for the latest doco kit and current thinking for production shooting 
> They are v helpful to student film making
> As for U S crews Hollywood and documentary is a strange beast
> We were shooting a wild mustang round up in the Sierra Nevada for the Horse whisper  doco
> 3 crews on the ground , our dop up in a Jet Ranger with a top gyro mount
> The ground crews would not shoot until given a stop by the dop who was 20 miles away?
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 29 Dec 2022, at 16:47, Alan Taylor via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> I did a series of conferences from different countries around the globe each year.  There was a lot of remote involvement requiring satellites and communications over telephone lines.  Previous series had been a bit of a technical disaster, which led to Colin Callow becoming involved and he decided that broadcast crews would be better suited to the task than the typical conference crews in those days.
>> 
>> In Vancouver, we were required to use local crews rather than our British crew. The local sound guys didn?t have experience of things like telephone balance units, modern radio mics, in ear monitors or even MiniDisk recorders. I gave them a plugging list for the multi core cable boxes and started setting up the gear around the mixing desk.  It was quite some distance from the control room to the hall, so it was hard to keep an eye on what they were actually doing.  It soon became clear that they were not plugging up stuff the way specified, but were plugging things into different places for strange reasons.  I had to make it clear that a plugging list is not the start of a negotiation, it?s a detailed list of exactly what will be going where and that nothing gets changed without consulting me and having a good reason for it being different ( such as a cable fault ). My plugging list had everything in a logical order and was usually the same for each venue, so if there was an emergency, I wouldn?t need to check the paperwork, I knew where everything should be.
>> 
>> The crew didn?t let on when they weren?t familiar with gear, they thought they could just figure things out, but of course a lot of modern gear is too complex for that sort of approach.  In the end, Colin hired a local sound supervisor from Canadian television who directly oversaw the stage crew, ensuring that they were doing what they were supposed to do and to identify any areas where they weren?t familiar with the equipment. Fortunately he was familiar with most of the gear and learned quickly if he asked about anything unfamiliar.
>> 
>> As for technical training in Britain, obviously I?m a beneficiary of the BBC?s training scheme and I rate it very highly.  I?m also aware that in the freelance world, formal training is almost non-existent.  You mostly learn by looking over the shoulder of somebody who already knows. There are some universities and training colleges which train people for broadcast industries, but I haven?t been too impressed with the general level of suitability of the people emerging from these courses. Obviously some excellent ones come through the system, but they do seem to be something of a minority.
>> 
>> When Audiofile was the big thing, I paid to go on a course with AMS to learn how to use it properly. I?m not aware of many, if any, freelancers who have paid for courses out of their own money to learn to operate gear. 
>> 
>> The nearest thing most will get to proper training these days is when they become a staffer for a big OB facility company or studio. They do get to be guided by more experienced people and have the time to become familiar with the equipment.  Few of those companies have formal training schemes.  One facility company used to, and still might make a big song and dance about partnering with a local media college to offer broadcast training, but a cynic might regard it as them having identified a source of cheap labour, without much formal training taking place.
>> 
>> I have a friend who is a careers advisor for schools.  She is often asked how youngsters can best get into a career behind the cameras.  The standard advice is to either become a runner and work your way up, or to go off to somewhere like Ravensbourne. My suggestion was that she might direct pupils towards the busier equipment hire companies.  They will have all the latest gear, offering opportunities to become familiar with it, but more importantly, they get to see which companies are frequently hiring it and if they get involved with delivering equipment to those clients, they can start to establish a relationship with those companies with a view to eventually applying for a job with them.
>> 
>> Looking back, I think we were incredibly fortunate to have been given the opportunities that we had as youngsters. We probably didn?t think so at the time, but nothing comparable is available to people of a similar age these days.
>> 
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 29 Dec 2022, at 14:29, Chris Woolf via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 29/12/2022 11:56, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>>> 
>>> ...This taught me at least one thing ? it was plain that the imported sound crew hadn?t a clue as to how the equipment
>>> actually worked....
>>> 
>>> By and large the US film and TV industry has had no equivalent to the BBC, ITV and NFTS training schemes for most of its life. Heavy unionism, and nepotistic entry to the industry meant that users learnt a craft, but virtually none of the engineering that supported it.  You are quite correct that the norm is to "not have a clue".
>>> 
>>> Working on trade shows in the US, touring studios etc I was stunned by how little technical knowledge was present - they almost all copied a process, or a work pattern, (and got by, because it had been done before) but had almost no understanding of why it worked.
>>> 
>>> This frequently showed up most clearly in sync and TC, because these have always been subjects where the interplay of engineering, work-flow and craft were most critical, and least understood. Go to a lecture in Europe on TC, stereo stage widths, surround techniques, digital signal handling etc, and you would regularly find a couple of hundred every-day film and TV craft folk attending, and understanding what was being talked about - in the US, events of the same type rarely happened, because you would probably only find three souls who it would mean anything to.
>>> 
>>> The sad bit is that with the demise of most training, the increasing use of software to "mend" the mistakes of incompetent, unskilled users, and the tolerance of poor sound by productions (mainly because lighting and cameras can't deal with poles and booms mow), we are dropping to the same level of de-skilling in the UK. I'm a great supporter of the freelance world, but it makes learning the (increasing) technical complexities of the business very hard.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps the hardest problem is that, once upon a time, the more elderly craft exponents moved to training schemes to teach newcomers. That isn't a useful approach nowadays since the engineering, and basic techniques, have changed too radically. We really do need to institute a more radical level of training, with a  thoroughly solid engineering background. Given the complexity of digital signal handling and processing this is going to need a slightly more academic approach than has been acceptable in the past.
>>> 
>>> Chris Woolf
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From j at howell61.f9.co.uk  Thu Dec 29 17:54:49 2022
From: j at howell61.f9.co.uk (John Howell)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 23:54:49 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <268FC394-1A28-4AC9-B617-EBC6EC06B4BD@mac.com>
References: <E661730C-D78E-4341-BB7D-AFD2C27EDF01@me.com>
	<821E0700-47BF-450F-BB87-97C4145D34F1@btinternet.com>
	<268FC394-1A28-4AC9-B617-EBC6EC06B4BD@mac.com>
Message-ID: <14e6fc82-b0a7-52f4-277c-2858bc14e4ae@howell61.f9.co.uk>

Which? reminds me of a serious question from one of my school mates: 'Do 
car headlights go out slowly because the electricity is still running 
out of the wires?' He was in the Arts Stream.

Let's hope 2023 is a better year than the previous 12 months!

Best to all,


Hibou.




On 29/12/2022 20:26, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote:
> This discussion reminds me of an incident during the LA Olympics in 
> 1984. Before the games started, we were visiting venues to check 
> commentators? positions and at one I was getting what could only have 
> been a howl-round on feedback to commentators. A visit to the 
> commentary control room elicited a response from a young lady fresh 
> out of high school, to the effect that they had been checking feeds 
> with tone earlier that morning and, even though they had killed the 
> tone source?some hours before I arrived, it was probably still going 
> around the system! I didn?t bother to engage in further conversation!
>
> I can?t recall how the problem was resolved, but it was definitely not 
> down to tone!
>
> Mike G
>
>> On 29 Dec 2022, at 19:52, Roger Long via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I ?also advise new entrants to work for dry hire companies and learn 
>> the latest kit
>> I recommend ?Films of 59 in Bristol
>> They have state of the art Nat hist kit and top ?Sony and Arri 
>> cameras for big dramas
>> The Nation Film School is great for some dop / editors / dubbing 
>> mixers/ gaffer?s but out in the van delivering kit to location and 
>> meeting movers and shakers is a wonderous and demanding challenge
>> I also commend Pink Noise Systems for the latest doco kit and current 
>> thinking for production shooting
>> They are v helpful to student film making
>> As for U S crews Hollywood and documentary is a strange beast
>> We were shooting a wild mustang round up in the Sierra Nevada for the 
>> Horse whisper ?doco
>> 3 crews on the ground , our dop up in a Jet Ranger with a top gyro mount
>> The ground crews would not shoot until given a stop by the dop who 
>> was 20 miles away?
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On 29 Dec 2022, at 16:47, Alan Taylor via Tech1 
>>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> I did a series of conferences from different countries around the 
>>> globe each year. ?There was a lot of remote involvement requiring 
>>> satellites and communications over telephone lines. ?Previous series 
>>> had been a bit of a technical disaster, which led to Colin Callow 
>>> becoming involved and he decided that broadcast crews would be 
>>> better suited to the task than the typical conference crews in those 
>>> days.
>>>
>>> In Vancouver, we were required to use local crews rather than our 
>>> British crew. The local sound guys didn?t have experience of things 
>>> like telephone balance units, modern radio mics, in ear monitors or 
>>> even MiniDisk recorders. I gave them a plugging list for the multi 
>>> core cable boxes and started setting up the gear around the mixing 
>>> desk. ?It was quite some distance from the control room to the hall, 
>>> so it was hard to keep an eye on what they were actually doing. ?It 
>>> soon became clear that they were not plugging up stuff the way 
>>> specified, but were plugging things into different places for 
>>> strange reasons. ?I had to make it clear that a plugging list is not 
>>> the start of a negotiation, it?s a detailed list of exactly what 
>>> will be going where and that nothing gets changed without consulting 
>>> me and having a good reason for it being different ( such as a cable 
>>> fault ). My plugging list had everything in a logical order and was 
>>> usually the same for each venue, so if there was an emergency, I 
>>> wouldn?t need to check the paperwork, I knew where everything should be.
>>>
>>> The crew didn?t let on when they weren?t familiar with gear, they 
>>> thought they could just figure things out, but of course a lot of 
>>> modern gear is too complex for that sort of approach. ?In the end, 
>>> Colin hired a local sound supervisor from Canadian television who 
>>> directly oversaw the stage crew, ensuring that they were doing what 
>>> they were supposed to do and to identify any areas where they 
>>> weren?t familiar with the equipment. Fortunately he was familiar 
>>> with most of the gear and learned quickly if he asked about anything 
>>> unfamiliar.
>>>
>>> As for technical training in Britain, obviously I?m a beneficiary of 
>>> the BBC?s training scheme and I rate it very highly. ?I?m also aware 
>>> that in the freelance world, formal training is almost non-existent. 
>>> ?You mostly learn by looking over the shoulder of somebody who 
>>> already knows. There are some universities and training colleges 
>>> which train people for broadcast industries, but I haven?t been too 
>>> impressed with the general level of suitability of the people 
>>> emerging from these courses. Obviously some excellent ones come 
>>> through the system, but they do seem to be something of a minority.
>>>
>>> When Audiofile was the big thing, I paid to go on a course with AMS 
>>> to learn how to use it properly. I?m not aware of many, if any, 
>>> freelancers who have paid for courses out of their own money to 
>>> learn to operate gear.
>>>
>>> The nearest thing most will get to proper training these days is 
>>> when they become a staffer for a big OB facility company or studio. 
>>> They do get to be guided by more experienced people and have the 
>>> time to become familiar with the equipment. ?Few of those companies 
>>> have formal training schemes. ?One facility company used to, and 
>>> still might make a big song and dance about partnering with a local 
>>> media college to offer broadcast training, but a cynic might regard 
>>> it as them having identified a source of cheap labour, without much 
>>> formal training taking place.
>>>
>>> I have a friend who is a careers advisor for schools. ?She is often 
>>> asked how youngsters can best get into a career behind the cameras. 
>>> ?The standard advice is to either become a runner and work your way 
>>> up, or to go off to somewhere like Ravensbourne. My suggestion was 
>>> that she might direct pupils towards the busier equipment hire 
>>> companies. ?They will have all the latest gear, offering 
>>> opportunities to become familiar with it, but more importantly, they 
>>> get to see which companies are frequently hiring it and if they get 
>>> involved with delivering equipment to those clients, they can start 
>>> to establish a relationship with those companies with a view to 
>>> eventually applying for a job with them.
>>>
>>> Looking back, I think we were incredibly fortunate to have been 
>>> given the opportunities that we had as youngsters. We probably 
>>> didn?t think so at the time, but nothing comparable is available to 
>>> people of a similar age these days.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 29 Dec 2022, at 14:29, Chris Woolf via Tech1 
>>>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 29/12/2022 11:56, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...This taught me at least one thing ? it was plain that the 
>>>> imported sound crew hadn?t a clue as to how the equipment
>>>> actually worked....
>>>>
>>>> By and large the US film and TV industry has had no equivalent to 
>>>> the BBC, ITV and NFTS training schemes for most of its life. Heavy 
>>>> unionism, and nepotistic entry to the industry meant that users 
>>>> learnt a craft, but virtually none of the engineering that 
>>>> supported it.? You are quite correct that the norm is to "not have 
>>>> a clue".
>>>>
>>>> Working on trade shows in the US, touring studios etc I was stunned 
>>>> by how little technical knowledge was present - they almost all 
>>>> copied a process, or a work pattern, (and got by, because it had 
>>>> been done before) but had almost no understanding of why it worked.
>>>>
>>>> This frequently showed up most clearly in sync and TC, because 
>>>> these have always been subjects where the interplay of engineering, 
>>>> work-flow and craft were most critical, and least understood. Go to 
>>>> a lecture in Europe on TC, stereo stage widths, surround 
>>>> techniques, digital signal handling etc, and you would regularly 
>>>> find a couple of hundred every-day film and TV craft folk 
>>>> attending, and understanding what was being talked about - in the 
>>>> US, events of the same type rarely happened, because you would 
>>>> probably only find three souls who it would mean anything to.
>>>>
>>>> The sad bit is that with the demise of most training, the 
>>>> increasing use of software to "mend" the mistakes of incompetent, 
>>>> unskilled users, and the tolerance of poor sound by productions 
>>>> (mainly because lighting and cameras can't deal with poles and 
>>>> booms mow), we are dropping to the same level of de-skilling in the 
>>>> UK. I'm a great supporter of the freelance world, but it makes 
>>>> learning the (increasing) technical complexities of the business 
>>>> very hard.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the hardest problem is that, once upon a time, the more 
>>>> elderly craft exponents moved to training schemes to teach 
>>>> newcomers. That isn't a useful approach nowadays since the 
>>>> engineering, and basic techniques, have changed too radically. We 
>>>> really do need to institute a more radical level of training, with 
>>>> a? thoroughly solid engineering background. Given the complexity of 
>>>> digital signal handling and processing this is going to need a 
>>>> slightly more academic approach than has been acceptable in the past.
>>>>
>>>> Chris Woolf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>
>
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From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 18:05:09 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 00:05:09 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <14e6fc82-b0a7-52f4-277c-2858bc14e4ae@howell61.f9.co.uk>
References: <E661730C-D78E-4341-BB7D-AFD2C27EDF01@me.com>
	<821E0700-47BF-450F-BB87-97C4145D34F1@btinternet.com>
	<268FC394-1A28-4AC9-B617-EBC6EC06B4BD@mac.com>
	<14e6fc82-b0a7-52f4-277c-2858bc14e4ae@howell61.f9.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ea48b175-f956-0f11-8e0e-be218dae9caa@gmail.com>

Think they must have moved on to being journalists in the popular press. 
Judging about all the articles on how to save electricity bills by using 
a smaller heater.

On 29/12/2022 23:54, John Howell via Tech1 wrote:
>
> Which? reminds me of a serious question from one of my school mates: 
> 'Do car headlights go out slowly because the electricity is still 
> running out of the wires?' He was in the Arts Stream.
>
> Let's hope 2023 is a better year than the previous 12 months!
>
> Best to all,
>
>
> Hibou.
>
>
>
>
> On 29/12/2022 20:26, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote:
>> This discussion reminds me of an incident during the LA Olympics in 
>> 1984. Before the games started, we were visiting venues to check 
>> commentators? positions and at one I was getting what could only have 
>> been a howl-round on feedback to commentators. A visit to the 
>> commentary control room elicited a response from a young lady fresh 
>> out of high school, to the effect that they had been checking feeds 
>> with tone earlier that morning and, even though they had killed the 
>> tone source?some hours before I arrived, it was probably still going 
>> around the system! I didn?t bother to engage in further conversation!
>>
>> I can?t recall how the problem was resolved, but it was definitely 
>> not down to tone!
>>
>> Mike G
>>
>>> On 29 Dec 2022, at 19:52, Roger Long via Tech1 
>>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> I ?also advise new entrants to work for dry hire companies and learn 
>>> the latest kit
>>> I recommend ?Films of 59 in Bristol
>>> They have state of the art Nat hist kit and top ?Sony and Arri 
>>> cameras for big dramas
>>> The Nation Film School is great for some dop / editors / dubbing 
>>> mixers/ gaffer?s but out in the van delivering kit to location and 
>>> meeting movers and shakers is a wonderous and demanding challenge
>>> I also commend Pink Noise Systems for the latest doco kit and 
>>> current thinking for production shooting
>>> They are v helpful to student film making
>>> As for U S crews Hollywood and documentary is a strange beast
>>> We were shooting a wild mustang round up in the Sierra Nevada for 
>>> the Horse whisper ?doco
>>> 3 crews on the ground , our dop up in a Jet Ranger with a top gyro mount
>>> The ground crews would not shoot until given a stop by the dop who 
>>> was 20 miles away?
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On 29 Dec 2022, at 16:47, Alan Taylor via Tech1 
>>>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>> I did a series of conferences from different countries around the 
>>>> globe each year. ?There was a lot of remote involvement requiring 
>>>> satellites and communications over telephone lines. ?Previous 
>>>> series had been a bit of a technical disaster, which led to Colin 
>>>> Callow becoming involved and he decided that broadcast crews would 
>>>> be better suited to the task than the typical conference crews in 
>>>> those days.
>>>>
>>>> In Vancouver, we were required to use local crews rather than our 
>>>> British crew. The local sound guys didn?t have experience of things 
>>>> like telephone balance units, modern radio mics, in ear monitors or 
>>>> even MiniDisk recorders. I gave them a plugging list for the multi 
>>>> core cable boxes and started setting up the gear around the mixing 
>>>> desk. ?It was quite some distance from the control room to the 
>>>> hall, so it was hard to keep an eye on what they were actually 
>>>> doing. ?It soon became clear that they were not plugging up stuff 
>>>> the way specified, but were plugging things into different places 
>>>> for strange reasons. ?I had to make it clear that a plugging list 
>>>> is not the start of a negotiation, it?s a detailed list of exactly 
>>>> what will be going where and that nothing gets changed without 
>>>> consulting me and having a good reason for it being different ( 
>>>> such as a cable fault ). My plugging list had everything in a 
>>>> logical order and was usually the same for each venue, so if there 
>>>> was an emergency, I wouldn?t need to check the paperwork, I knew 
>>>> where everything should be.
>>>>
>>>> The crew didn?t let on when they weren?t familiar with gear, they 
>>>> thought they could just figure things out, but of course a lot of 
>>>> modern gear is too complex for that sort of approach. ?In the end, 
>>>> Colin hired a local sound supervisor from Canadian television who 
>>>> directly oversaw the stage crew, ensuring that they were doing what 
>>>> they were supposed to do and to identify any areas where they 
>>>> weren?t familiar with the equipment. Fortunately he was familiar 
>>>> with most of the gear and learned quickly if he asked about 
>>>> anything unfamiliar.
>>>>
>>>> As for technical training in Britain, obviously I?m a beneficiary 
>>>> of the BBC?s training scheme and I rate it very highly. ?I?m also 
>>>> aware that in the freelance world, formal training is almost 
>>>> non-existent. ?You mostly learn by looking over the shoulder of 
>>>> somebody who already knows. There are some universities and 
>>>> training colleges which train people for broadcast industries, but 
>>>> I haven?t been too impressed with the general level of suitability 
>>>> of the people emerging from these courses. Obviously some excellent 
>>>> ones come through the system, but they do seem to be something of a 
>>>> minority.
>>>>
>>>> When Audiofile was the big thing, I paid to go on a course with AMS 
>>>> to learn how to use it properly. I?m not aware of many, if any, 
>>>> freelancers who have paid for courses out of their own money to 
>>>> learn to operate gear.
>>>>
>>>> The nearest thing most will get to proper training these days is 
>>>> when they become a staffer for a big OB facility company or studio. 
>>>> They do get to be guided by more experienced people and have the 
>>>> time to become familiar with the equipment. ?Few of those companies 
>>>> have formal training schemes. ?One facility company used to, and 
>>>> still might make a big song and dance about partnering with a local 
>>>> media college to offer broadcast training, but a cynic might regard 
>>>> it as them having identified a source of cheap labour, without much 
>>>> formal training taking place.
>>>>
>>>> I have a friend who is a careers advisor for schools. ?She is often 
>>>> asked how youngsters can best get into a career behind the cameras. 
>>>> ?The standard advice is to either become a runner and work your way 
>>>> up, or to go off to somewhere like Ravensbourne. My suggestion was 
>>>> that she might direct pupils towards the busier equipment hire 
>>>> companies. ?They will have all the latest gear, offering 
>>>> opportunities to become familiar with it, but more importantly, 
>>>> they get to see which companies are frequently hiring it and if 
>>>> they get involved with delivering equipment to those clients, they 
>>>> can start to establish a relationship with those companies with a 
>>>> view to eventually applying for a job with them.
>>>>
>>>> Looking back, I think we were incredibly fortunate to have been 
>>>> given the opportunities that we had as youngsters. We probably 
>>>> didn?t think so at the time, but nothing comparable is available to 
>>>> people of a similar age these days.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 29 Dec 2022, at 14:29, Chris Woolf via Tech1 
>>>>> <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 29/12/2022 11:56, Pat Heigham via Tech1 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ...This taught me at least one thing ? it was plain that the 
>>>>> imported sound crew hadn?t a clue as to how the equipment
>>>>> actually worked....
>>>>>
>>>>> By and large the US film and TV industry has had no equivalent to 
>>>>> the BBC, ITV and NFTS training schemes for most of its life. Heavy 
>>>>> unionism, and nepotistic entry to the industry meant that users 
>>>>> learnt a craft, but virtually none of the engineering that 
>>>>> supported it.? You are quite correct that the norm is to "not have 
>>>>> a clue".
>>>>>
>>>>> Working on trade shows in the US, touring studios etc I was 
>>>>> stunned by how little technical knowledge was present - they 
>>>>> almost all copied a process, or a work pattern, (and got by, 
>>>>> because it had been done before) but had almost no understanding 
>>>>> of why it worked.
>>>>>
>>>>> This frequently showed up most clearly in sync and TC, because 
>>>>> these have always been subjects where the interplay of 
>>>>> engineering, work-flow and craft were most critical, and least 
>>>>> understood. Go to a lecture in Europe on TC, stereo stage widths, 
>>>>> surround techniques, digital signal handling etc, and you would 
>>>>> regularly find a couple of hundred every-day film and TV craft 
>>>>> folk attending, and understanding what was being talked about - in 
>>>>> the US, events of the same type rarely happened, because you would 
>>>>> probably only find three souls who it would mean anything to.
>>>>>
>>>>> The sad bit is that with the demise of most training, the 
>>>>> increasing use of software to "mend" the mistakes of incompetent, 
>>>>> unskilled users, and the tolerance of poor sound by productions 
>>>>> (mainly because lighting and cameras can't deal with poles and 
>>>>> booms mow), we are dropping to the same level of de-skilling in 
>>>>> the UK. I'm a great supporter of the freelance world, but it makes 
>>>>> learning the (increasing) technical complexities of the business 
>>>>> very hard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the hardest problem is that, once upon a time, the more 
>>>>> elderly craft exponents moved to training schemes to teach 
>>>>> newcomers. That isn't a useful approach nowadays since the 
>>>>> engineering, and basic techniques, have changed too radically. We 
>>>>> really do need to institute a more radical level of training, with 
>>>>> a thoroughly solid engineering background. Given the complexity of 
>>>>> digital signal handling and processing this is going to need a 
>>>>> slightly more academic approach than has been acceptable in the past.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris Woolf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>> -- 
>>> Tech1 mailing list
>>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
>>
>>
>
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From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Fri Dec 30 05:27:41 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 11:27:41 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <ea48b175-f956-0f11-8e0e-be218dae9caa@gmail.com>
References: <E661730C-D78E-4341-BB7D-AFD2C27EDF01@me.com>
	<821E0700-47BF-450F-BB87-97C4145D34F1@btinternet.com>
	<268FC394-1A28-4AC9-B617-EBC6EC06B4BD@mac.com>
	<14e6fc82-b0a7-52f4-277c-2858bc14e4ae@howell61.f9.co.uk>
	<ea48b175-f956-0f11-8e0e-be218dae9caa@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3d8353d4-0289-0c5f-5ac9-66f294718d8f@chriswoolf.co.uk>


On 30/12/2022 00:05, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
>
> Think they must have moved on to being journalists in the popular 
> press. Judging about all the articles on how to save electricity bills 
> by using a smaller heater.
>
>
Indeed! Listened to something on R4 the other day, comparing electric 
heaters. The staggering answer they came to after 30 minutes was.... 
that the overall temperature reached depended on... the Wattage of the 
heater. And that for the same degree of warmth, over the same time, in 
the same space..... the cost was the same irrespective of whichever 
version of heater you used.

Any physicist would have been shattered if they had come to any other 
conclusion, and could have explained it in 30 seconds.

Chris Woolf



From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 07:01:29 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 13:01:29 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <3d8353d4-0289-0c5f-5ac9-66f294718d8f@chriswoolf.co.uk>
References: <E661730C-D78E-4341-BB7D-AFD2C27EDF01@me.com>
	<821E0700-47BF-450F-BB87-97C4145D34F1@btinternet.com>
	<268FC394-1A28-4AC9-B617-EBC6EC06B4BD@mac.com>
	<14e6fc82-b0a7-52f4-277c-2858bc14e4ae@howell61.f9.co.uk>
	<ea48b175-f956-0f11-8e0e-be218dae9caa@gmail.com>
	<3d8353d4-0289-0c5f-5ac9-66f294718d8f@chriswoolf.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e12ce147-e0d3-a8ec-1abe-2639de45166e@gmail.com>

The in thing at the moment is a small fan heater which is self contained 
with the plug - like a large wall wart. Claiming all sorts of savings. 
And always accompanied by lots of glowing testimonials. Which that R4 
prog found got dangerously hot to the touch - and as you said saved not 
a penny overall. Thought at one time we had some sort of advertising 
standards to stop deliberately misleading adverts?

The one gadget I have bought is an air fryer. Again, misleading, as it 
is simply a small fan oven. But does do the same an ordinary fan oven 
does cheaper - assuming what you are cooking will fit in it. But will 
likely take a long time to recover its capital cost. But being quicker 
(no pre-heat needed) is pretty convenient too.

On 30/12/2022 11:27, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote:
>
> On 30/12/2022 00:05, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
>>
>> Think they must have moved on to being journalists in the popular 
>> press. Judging about all the articles on how to save electricity 
>> bills by using a smaller heater.
>>
>>
> Indeed! Listened to something on R4 the other day, comparing electric 
> heaters. The staggering answer they came to after 30 minutes was.... 
> that the overall temperature reached depended on... the Wattage of the 
> heater. And that for the same degree of warmth, over the same time, in 
> the same space..... the cost was the same irrespective of whichever 
> version of heater you used.
>
> Any physicist would have been shattered if they had come to any other 
> conclusion, and could have explained it in 30 seconds.
>
> Chris Woolf
>
>


From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Fri Dec 30 08:23:47 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 14:23:47 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Lip syc in movies
In-Reply-To: <e12ce147-e0d3-a8ec-1abe-2639de45166e@gmail.com>
References: <E661730C-D78E-4341-BB7D-AFD2C27EDF01@me.com>
	<821E0700-47BF-450F-BB87-97C4145D34F1@btinternet.com>
	<268FC394-1A28-4AC9-B617-EBC6EC06B4BD@mac.com>
	<14e6fc82-b0a7-52f4-277c-2858bc14e4ae@howell61.f9.co.uk>
	<ea48b175-f956-0f11-8e0e-be218dae9caa@gmail.com>
	<3d8353d4-0289-0c5f-5ac9-66f294718d8f@chriswoolf.co.uk>
	<e12ce147-e0d3-a8ec-1abe-2639de45166e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c00b2ab7-b938-3a29-2005-c62787268514@chriswoolf.co.uk>

The physics of heating people, houses and things isn't hard, but so many 
people don't want to get an answer that they don't like.

Your logic of a small oven - an air-fryer - is perfectly sane. Heating a 
smaller space is cheaper. The hope that a 500W heater will warm a room 
more cheaply than 2000W one is clearly unsupportable.

There is a coming fashion for infrared heating - an interesting idea 
because it claims to heat the person rather than the room. In physical 
terms that's correct - your body receives the radiation direct and will 
feel warm. The problem comes in that radiation travels in straight lines 
- put anything in the way, like a sofa, and you instantly "in the shade".

The other problem that is beginning to dawn on people in the current 
economic climate, is that you do need to heat the air too, if only to 
evaporate some of the water that British homes always suffer. Anyone who 
has lived without adequate heating for any length of time knows the 
problems of clothes turning blue in cupboards because of damp, and black 
bathrooms and kitchens. This situation is costly in every sense, 
including chronic health.

I find it interesting that you can find recommended temperatures for 
domestic homes everywhere, and they all agree within a handful of 
degrees. Try finding a recommended humidity and you'll search for a lot 
longer. Anything over about RH55% and you'll find mould growth starting 
very quickly. So although /feeling/ warm is a pretty important part of 
keeping comfortable, keeping the air dry enough (~RH40%) is also 
critical. Moreover, if you want to make a room warmer you have to 
evaporate the water in the air (and the walls, furniture etc) to raise 
the temperature - if you have ever lived in a damp house you will know 
you can pour several hours of heat into a room to raise the bloody place 
even 1?C. And that is staggeringly expensive.

A (physically) warm Chris Woolf - but suffering a bloody horrible cold:[



On 30/12/2022 13:01, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
> The in thing at the moment is a small fan heater which is self 
> contained with the plug - like a large wall wart. Claiming all sorts 
> of savings. And always accompanied by lots of glowing testimonials. 
> Which that R4 prog found got dangerously hot to the touch - and as you 
> said saved not a penny overall. Thought at one time we had some sort 
> of advertising standards to stop deliberately misleading adverts?
>
> The one gadget I have bought is an air fryer. Again, misleading, as it 
> is simply a small fan oven. But does do the same an ordinary fan oven 
> does cheaper - assuming what you are cooking will fit in it. But will 
> likely take a long time to recover its capital cost. But being quicker 
> (no pre-heat needed) is pretty convenient too.
>
> On 30/12/2022 11:27, Chris Woolf via Tech1 wrote:
>>
>> On 30/12/2022 00:05, Dave Plowman via Tech1 wrote:
>>>
>>> Think they must have moved on to being journalists in the popular 
>>> press. Judging about all the articles on how to save electricity 
>>> bills by using a smaller heater.
>>>
>>>
>> Indeed! Listened to something on R4 the other day, comparing electric 
>> heaters. The staggering answer they came to after 30 minutes was.... 
>> that the overall temperature reached depended on... the Wattage of 
>> the heater. And that for the same degree of warmth, over the same 
>> time, in the same space..... the cost was the same irrespective of 
>> whichever version of heater you used.
>>
>> Any physicist would have been shattered if they had come to any other 
>> conclusion, and could have explained it in 30 seconds.
>>
>> Chris Woolf
>>
>>
>
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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Fri Dec 30 08:59:03 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 14:59:03 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] NHS pressures
Message-ID: <E454445304AB420882CFEB88A9159794@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Perhaps the worst year Hilary & I have ever coped with is drawing to its close. Going out much as it came in.

My 81 year old sister died in hospital at 7.30 pm on Christmas Eve. It has taken six days for the bereavement office to obtain a doctor?s signature to issue the death certificate. The doctors are so stretched that finding one with time to get away from ward duties has taken this long. In the modern era the hospital bereavement office sends the certificate electronically to the County Registration HQ and I have been notified this was finally being done this afternoon. Of course an appointment is now necessary for me to attend at a Registry Office to formally register the death.

There is no chance of an appointment slot being offered for today and the next day the service will be operating is Tuesday Jan 3rd ? 10 days after my sister?s demise when the standard rule is that a death should be registered within 5 days. This will be the third time I have had to do this, but it is 20 years since the last occasion and much has changed. In Somerset one can not now speak directly to any of the individual Registration Offices, you contact the central HQ in Taunton who, once they have ascertained that they have the Doctor?s certificate, will telephone with an an offer of an appointment.

I did in fact telephone the Registration HQ on Tuesday, mistakenly believing the certificate would already be with them. I had driven to the hospital on Xmas Day morning where the ward staff gave me to understand the process was already under way. I suspect they did not realise the Bereavement Office (which performs the actual electronic transfer function) was closed over the holiday period in marked contrast to Funeral Directors who operate 24/7 regardless of date.

All to no avail as the Reg. O was closed on Tuesday. The answer tape said ?the office is closed, our open times are Monday to Friday 9 am to 5.30 pm?. Not a word about Christmas week or revised availability because of it. I did speak to them the following day, Wednesday, which was when I found out the Doctor?s certificate had not been sent. Accordingly the next day, Thursday, I rang the Hospital Bereavement Service. Two numbers were given, the first produced ?your call can not be taken?, the second was a message to the effect that Transport was unavailable. Central reception had no way of finding whether or not the Office was staffed that day, just knew that it should have been.

I?ll spare you the rest, it doesn?t get any better. Everyone you do speak to is nice and tries to be helpful so at no stage do you feel cross with anyone, just that one becomes worn out with the effort of it all. I have been coping a 12 month with awful fatigue post shingles and perhaps feel the problems more keenly because of that.

I am executor as well as next of kin so hope probate and administering the estate doesn?t pile up more problems. Not holding my breath.

Dave Newbitt.
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From tuckergarth at me.com  Fri Dec 30 09:36:48 2022
From: tuckergarth at me.com (Garth Tucker)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 15:36:48 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Hints of the past
Message-ID: <86561906-89B5-47D5-BAE9-DB4FF275C8E9@me.com>

Carole and I enjoyed the ?Strike? detective series featuring Tom Burke and Holliday Grainger. ?Troubled Blood?, the fifth in the series which went out pre-Christmas, we thought particularly good, Not only were the performances excellent (including a wonderful cameo by Ken Cranham) but the lighting, shot selection and editing were of a very high standard, at least we thought so. The director, none other than Sue Tully (her second in the series).

Another association with the past we noted was the Christmas ?Death In Paradise'. The Director of Photography, Ian Adrian. I assume . . .

All best wishes for the New Year to you all,

Garth

From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Fri Dec 30 09:38:48 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 15:38:48 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] I hate plastic
References: <2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688.ref@sky.com>
Message-ID: <2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688@sky.com>

Why is it that small important plastic bits in devices seem to break easily and yet single use plastic protective covers are almost impossible to open? Whatever happened to dependable brass and steel?
PS I also hate coat hangers. They are specifically designed to entangle if kept together in a bag. 
Is that quantum entanglement or just annoying?

Sent from my iPad


From pat.heigham at amps.net  Fri Dec 30 11:30:32 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 17:30:32 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] I hate plastic
In-Reply-To: <2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688@sky.com>
References: <2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688.ref@sky.com>
	<2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688@sky.com>
Message-ID: <f873e0a5-ee1b-1f87-aabb-cef2b58b9f53@amps.net>

I know exactly what you mean.
A pigeon failed to attain suitable flying height and belted my wing 
mirror. The electric adjustment did no longer work, and on dismantling, 
discovered that
a tiny peg on one gear wheel, no more than 2mm high had snapped off. ?40 
for a new mechanism, but saved having the service technician
to fit it as I could easily do that myself.

Pat

On 30/12/2022 15:38, B Wilkinson via Tech1 wrote:
> Why is it that small important plastic bits in devices seem to break easily


From mibridge at mac.com  Fri Dec 30 13:21:24 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 19:21:24 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] HD via broadband
Message-ID: <450F584B-FFB8-465F-8DE4-0DB5D0F240D6@mac.com>

I?ve had a BT Plus box for a few months, as they offered it as part of a broadband upgrade offer together with Netflix and Now, but I?ve been very reluctant to pull apart the spaghetti in the TV cabinet in order to install it. However, whilst the kitchen set automatically recently updated from ITV Hub to ITVx, new logo and all without me doing anything, our sitting room TV lost ITV Hub but didn?t replace it with ITVx, so as we use catch-up on ITV quite often, I investigated online and had to conclude that the TV was too ancient for the upgrade, even though it?s probably only a couple of years older than the kitchen set ~ both are Samsung.

Not wanting to replace the TV, as it?s good enough in most respects, I dug out the BT Box and chopped out a lot of the spaghetti to make room. Having set it up, via wi-fi, I confess myself delighted at what it offers. I hadn?t realised that it would provide live TV channels via broadband in the same way that a conventional TV tuner does, with the benefit that BBC1 HD is now button 1 and so on, which is much less hassle than inputting 101, usually incorrectly first time. And it doesn?t suffer the drop-outs that we used to experience off-air when aircraft fly over us, particularly on HD. Although we have previously used BBC London region for our local news, I decided to try South East as it offered the option and, following a recent thread, was surprised that the SE local news follows the main news via BT, whereas the off-air HD from Crystal Palace doesn?t offer the London local news. Apart from the fact that Channel 20, Drama, is missing from the BT list, (anyone know why that might be?) it renders the aerial feed almost redundant in the sitting room, although we still need it for the kitchen. I haven?t yet compared the total list of available live transmissions via BT with the off-air list, but it said it had found quite a lot after set-up.

How long, I wonder, before TV transmitters can be decommissioned? And no doubt Chris can advise us as to whether the adoption of broadband for all TV viewing would be more or less efficient overall than transmitting over the airwaves. The broadcasters would presumably save money at the expense of the internet service providers long-term, and householders until the full broadband facility is built into TV sets ~ or is that happening already?

The other mystery is that I had to sign in to ITVx on the lap-top to register the BT box, which wasn?t necessary for the kitchen set, and it confirmed that it was ITVx I?d signed up to, although the BT box still shows the ITV Hub logo but accesses ITVx programmes ~ my brain hurts, but only slightly as everything seems to be working. The pictures actually look better than they did off-air, even old SD shows like Heartbeat. Any other observations?

Mike G




From mibridge at mac.com  Fri Dec 30 13:41:31 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 19:41:31 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] HD via broadband
In-Reply-To: <450F584B-FFB8-465F-8DE4-0DB5D0F240D6@mac.com>
References: <450F584B-FFB8-465F-8DE4-0DB5D0F240D6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <97CC35E6-B16C-4881-8DDE-D874543CE7B5@mac.com>

I?m not sure I?m right about Heartbeat being SD ~ it was made later than I had realised.

> On 30 Dec 2022, at 19:21, Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I?ve had a BT Plus box for a few months, as they offered it as part of a broadband upgrade offer together with Netflix and Now, but I?ve been very reluctant to pull apart the spaghetti in the TV cabinet in order to install it. However, whilst the kitchen set automatically recently updated from ITV Hub to ITVx, new logo and all without me doing anything, our sitting room TV lost ITV Hub but didn?t replace it with ITVx, so as we use catch-up on ITV quite often, I investigated online and had to conclude that the TV was too ancient for the upgrade, even though it?s probably only a couple of years older than the kitchen set ~ both are Samsung.
> 
> Not wanting to replace the TV, as it?s good enough in most respects, I dug out the BT Box and chopped out a lot of the spaghetti to make room. Having set it up, via wi-fi, I confess myself delighted at what it offers. I hadn?t realised that it would provide live TV channels via broadband in the same way that a conventional TV tuner does, with the benefit that BBC1 HD is now button 1 and so on, which is much less hassle than inputting 101, usually incorrectly first time. And it doesn?t suffer the drop-outs that we used to experience off-air when aircraft fly over us, particularly on HD. Although we have previously used BBC London region for our local news, I decided to try South East as it offered the option and, following a recent thread, was surprised that the SE local news follows the main news via BT, whereas the off-air HD from Crystal Palace doesn?t offer the London local news. Apart from the fact that Channel 20, Drama, is missing from the BT list, (anyone know why that might be?) it renders the aerial feed almost redundant in the sitting room, although we still need it for the kitchen. I haven?t yet compared the total list of available live transmissions via BT with the off-air list, but it said it had found quite a lot after set-up.
> 
> How long, I wonder, before TV transmitters can be decommissioned? And no doubt Chris can advise us as to whether the adoption of broadband for all TV viewing would be more or less efficient overall than transmitting over the airwaves. The broadcasters would presumably save money at the expense of the internet service providers long-term, and householders until the full broadband facility is built into TV sets ~ or is that happening already?
> 
> The other mystery is that I had to sign in to ITVx on the lap-top to register the BT box, which wasn?t necessary for the kitchen set, and it confirmed that it was ITVx I?d signed up to, although the BT box still shows the ITV Hub logo but accesses ITVx programmes ~ my brain hurts, but only slightly as everything seems to be working. The pictures actually look better than they did off-air, even old SD shows like Heartbeat. Any other observations?
> 
> Mike G
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Fri Dec 30 13:44:09 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 19:44:09 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] HD via broadband
In-Reply-To: <450F584B-FFB8-465F-8DE4-0DB5D0F240D6@mac.com>
References: <450F584B-FFB8-465F-8DE4-0DB5D0F240D6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <550B463E-2D08-4FE6-8D0C-783C1F427483@sky.com>

Despite all the advertising ITV X is not yet available on Sky Q, but I can get it on my iPad.I read that it will be available sometime next year. I wanted to watch the Litvienco( sorry if spelt wrong) drama and another one I cannot remember. This is really bad planning .As an ITV pensioner I am annoyed it may lower ITV s share price .

Sent from my iPad

> On 30 Dec 2022, at 19:22, Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?I?ve had a BT Plus box for a few months, as they offered it as part of a broadband upgrade offer together with Netflix and Now, but I?ve been very reluctant to pull apart the spaghetti in the TV cabinet in order to install it. However, whilst the kitchen set automatically recently updated from ITV Hub to ITVx, new logo and all without me doing anything, our sitting room TV lost ITV Hub but didn?t replace it with ITVx, so as we use catch-up on ITV quite often, I investigated online and had to conclude that the TV was too ancient for the upgrade, even though it?s probably only a couple of years older than the kitchen set ~ both are Samsung.
> 
> Not wanting to replace the TV, as it?s good enough in most respects, I dug out the BT Box and chopped out a lot of the spaghetti to make room. Having set it up, via wi-fi, I confess myself delighted at what it offers. I hadn?t realised that it would provide live TV channels via broadband in the same way that a conventional TV tuner does, with the benefit that BBC1 HD is now button 1 and so on, which is much less hassle than inputting 101, usually incorrectly first time. And it doesn?t suffer the drop-outs that we used to experience off-air when aircraft fly over us, particularly on HD. Although we have previously used BBC London region for our local news, I decided to try South East as it offered the option and, following a recent thread, was surprised that the SE local news follows the main news via BT, whereas the off-air HD from Crystal Palace doesn?t offer the London local news. Apart from the fact that Channel 20, Drama, is missing from the BT list, (anyone know why that might be?) it renders the aerial feed almost redundant in the sitting room, although we still need it for the kitchen. I haven?t yet compared the total list of available live transmissions via BT with the off-air list, but it said it had found quite a lot after set-up.
> 
> How long, I wonder, before TV transmitters can be decommissioned? And no doubt Chris can advise us as to whether the adoption of broadband for all TV viewing would be more or less efficient overall than transmitting over the airwaves. The broadcasters would presumably save money at the expense of the internet service providers long-term, and householders until the full broadband facility is built into TV sets ~ or is that happening already?
> 
> The other mystery is that I had to sign in to ITVx on the lap-top to register the BT box, which wasn?t necessary for the kitchen set, and it confirmed that it was ITVx I?d signed up to, although the BT box still shows the ITV Hub logo but accesses ITVx programmes ~ my brain hurts, but only slightly as everything seems to be working. The pictures actually look better than they did off-air, even old SD shows like Heartbeat. Any other observations?
> 
> Mike G
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Fri Dec 30 14:56:07 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:56:07 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] HD via broadband
In-Reply-To: <97CC35E6-B16C-4881-8DDE-D874543CE7B5@mac.com>
References: <450F584B-FFB8-465F-8DE4-0DB5D0F240D6@mac.com>
	<97CC35E6-B16C-4881-8DDE-D874543CE7B5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <8FB040D6DA9448EA915DD9EA61D89F1E@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

My Panasonic is one of countless relatively modern sets that are unable to 
deal with ITVx and as we have from time to time streamed ITV Hub material we 
too had to look into the optimum way of dealing with the change. It seemed 
to me there were only a handful of sets already in use at the point of 
change which could cope with the problem.

My router is on the first floor in my small study but some time ago I ran a 
data cable from it to the ground-floor lounge feeding into an access point 
which distributes (wired) to a number of audio components via a Gigabit 
switch and by wifi to the TV. I bought a firetvstick 4K Max for ?37.99 in 
late November and was able to feed it from the wifi emanating from the 
access point. The stick's output feeds into one of the set's HDMI sockets, 
the supplied power adaptor plugs into the mains and provides the necessary 
1A. Had to go to my PC to register again but thereafter plain sailing.

The stick I chose is capable beyond my present requirements (4K etc) but I 
thought it better to err on the side of future-proofing.

Sound level from the stick is a bit fierce but the device works reliably. 
Still though there are too many programmes lacking subtitles.

Dave Newbitt.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Mike Giles via Tech1
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2022 7:41 PM
To: Tech Ops
Subject: Re: [Tech1] HD via broadband

I?m not sure I?m right about Heartbeat being SD ~ it was made later than I 
had realised.

> On 30 Dec 2022, at 19:21, Mike Giles via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> 
> wrote:
>
> I?ve had a BT Plus box for a few months, as they offered it as part of a 
> broadband upgrade offer together with Netflix and Now, but I?ve been very 
> reluctant to pull apart the spaghetti in the TV cabinet in order to 
> install it. However, whilst the kitchen set automatically recently updated 
> from ITV Hub to ITVx, new logo and all without me doing anything, our 
> sitting room TV lost ITV Hub but didn?t replace it with ITVx, so as we use 
> catch-up on ITV quite often, I investigated online and had to conclude 
> that the TV was too ancient for the upgrade, even though it?s probably 
> only a couple of years older than the kitchen set ~ both are Samsung.
>
> Not wanting to replace the TV, as it?s good enough in most respects, I dug 
> out the BT Box and chopped out a lot of the spaghetti to make room. Having 
> set it up, via wi-fi, I confess myself delighted at what it offers. I hadn?t 
> realised that it would provide live TV channels via broadband in the same 
> way that a conventional TV tuner does, with the benefit that BBC1 HD is 
> now button 1 and so on, which is much less hassle than inputting 101, 
> usually incorrectly first time. And it doesn?t suffer the drop-outs that 
> we used to experience off-air when aircraft fly over us, particularly on 
> HD. Although we have previously used BBC London region for our local news, 
> I decided to try South East as it offered the option and, following a 
> recent thread, was surprised that the SE local news follows the main news 
> via BT, whereas the off-air HD from Crystal Palace doesn?t offer the 
> London local news. Apart from the fact that Channel 20, Drama, is missing 
> from the BT list, (anyone know why that might be?) it renders the aerial 
> feed almost redundant in the sitting room, although we still need it for 
> the kitchen. I haven?t yet compared the total list of available live 
> transmissions via BT with the off-air list, but it said it had found quite 
> a lot after set-up.
>
> How long, I wonder, before TV transmitters can be decommissioned? And no 
> doubt Chris can advise us as to whether the adoption of broadband for all 
> TV viewing would be more or less efficient overall than transmitting over 
> the airwaves. The broadcasters would presumably save money at the expense 
> of the internet service providers long-term, and householders until the 
> full broadband facility is built into TV sets ~ or is that happening 
> already?
>
> The other mystery is that I had to sign in to ITVx on the lap-top to 
> register the BT box, which wasn?t necessary for the kitchen set, and it 
> confirmed that it was ITVx I?d signed up to, although the BT box still 
> shows the ITV Hub logo but accesses ITVx programmes ~ my brain hurts, but 
> only slightly as everything seems to be working. The pictures actually 
> look better than they did off-air, even old SD shows like Heartbeat. Any 
> other observations?
>
> Mike G
>
>
>
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


-- 
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk 



From plowmandave44 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 18:10:36 2022
From: plowmandave44 at gmail.com (Dave Plowman)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 00:10:36 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] HD via broadband
In-Reply-To: <450F584B-FFB8-465F-8DE4-0DB5D0F240D6@mac.com>
References: <450F584B-FFB8-465F-8DE4-0DB5D0F240D6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <c2444039-4bf5-4f6e-3c3a-7cfeedb573cc@gmail.com>

My BT box is an older one - a Humax with BT software. So has the normal 
FreeView as well as the BT offerings in the normal EPG - in the numbers 
between FreeView TV and radio channels - handy if you wish to record 
them in the normal way. But also the usual way of going to them online 
direct. And that did do an auto update to ITVX. This Humax is odd in 
that it doesn't do Wi-Fi - cable only.

On 30/12/2022 19:21, Mike Giles via Tech1 wrote:
> I?ve had a BT Plus box for a few months, as they offered it as part of a broadband upgrade offer together with Netflix and Now, but I?ve been very reluctant to pull apart the spaghetti in the TV cabinet in order to install it. However, whilst the kitchen set automatically recently updated from ITV Hub to ITVx, new logo and all without me doing anything, our sitting room TV lost ITV Hub but didn?t replace it with ITVx, so as we use catch-up on ITV quite often, I investigated online and had to conclude that the TV was too ancient for the upgrade, even though it?s probably only a couple of years older than the kitchen set ~ both are Samsung.
>
> Not wanting to replace the TV, as it?s good enough in most respects, I dug out the BT Box and chopped out a lot of the spaghetti to make room. Having set it up, via wi-fi, I confess myself delighted at what it offers. I hadn?t realised that it would provide live TV channels via broadband in the same way that a conventional TV tuner does, with the benefit that BBC1 HD is now button 1 and so on, which is much less hassle than inputting 101, usually incorrectly first time. And it doesn?t suffer the drop-outs that we used to experience off-air when aircraft fly over us, particularly on HD. Although we have previously used BBC London region for our local news, I decided to try South East as it offered the option and, following a recent thread, was surprised that the SE local news follows the main news via BT, whereas the off-air HD from Crystal Palace doesn?t offer the London local news. Apart from the fact that Channel 20, Drama, is missing from the BT list, (anyone know why that might be?) it renders the aerial feed almost redundant in the sitting room, although we still need it for the kitchen. I haven?t yet compared the total list of available live transmissions via BT with the off-air list, but it said it had found quite a lot after set-up.
>
> How long, I wonder, before TV transmitters can be decommissioned? And no doubt Chris can advise us as to whether the adoption of broadband for all TV viewing would be more or less efficient overall than transmitting over the airwaves. The broadcasters would presumably save money at the expense of the internet service providers long-term, and householders until the full broadband facility is built into TV sets ~ or is that happening already?
>
> The other mystery is that I had to sign in to ITVx on the lap-top to register the BT box, which wasn?t necessary for the kitchen set, and it confirmed that it was ITVx I?d signed up to, although the BT box still shows the ITV Hub logo but accesses ITVx programmes ~ my brain hurts, but only slightly as everything seems to be working. The pictures actually look better than they did off-air, even old SD shows like Heartbeat. Any other observations?
>
> Mike G
>
>
>

From alanaudio at me.com  Sat Dec 31 02:15:47 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 08:15:47 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] NHS pressures
In-Reply-To: <E454445304AB420882CFEB88A9159794@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <E454445304AB420882CFEB88A9159794@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <B869E315-D0FE-443C-986F-301ECB81281D@me.com>

My sympathies for your loss and the resultant frustrations regarding getting people to do their jobs.  In our business, along with many others, we were used to working at any hour of any day, including Bank holidays. I find it very hard to accept that so many things have to shut down for about a fortnight every year. 

The NHS in most areas is having a massive problem with staff retention, compounded by very low levels of recruitment. The situation is made worse by local managers acting in unwise and insensitive ways while trying to tick boxes and meet targets.

Janet works in a critical care ward which about a year ago was relocated and refurbished to provide six modern critical care beds. For critical care, the normal staffing should be one nurse per two patients, plus one auxiliary ( CSW ) for every three, therefore three nurses and two CSWs for those six patients . Since then, the bed managers have decided that as it?s a large ward, they can squeeze in more beds and there are now fourteen beds in there. The extra eight beds are general purpose beds, which means that patients requiring critical care, now have the comings and goings of ?normal? patients who are usually well enough to be quite demanding if they are the type of person who has a sense of entitlement by nature. Covid patients are no longer fully isolated from other patients and the ?ordinary? patients have visitors who may compromise the infection control procedures which ought to apply to critically ill patients . 

Standard staffing levels have increased by just one nurse and one CSW, for that increase from six to fourteen patients, but in reality, those minimum staffing levels have now become a target which it would be nice to meet. Most days there are shifts which cannot be filled.

The solution is to try and get staff to work extra shifts, or to get staff who have recently left to work for other employers to come back for occasional shifts.  Each local authority has a web site listing shifts which remain empty.  People can opt to fill those particular shifts.  The Oxford Health trust generally lists about 70 such shifts every day. Many simply don?t get filled. They have to pay higher rates to fill these shifts than they would if staff were available in the first place. As a last resort, they employ agency staff at super-premium rates, which takes even more out of the budget.

One of Janet?s ex colleagues now works for the police force. Her police training salary was significantly higher than her NHS salary. She occasionally volunteers to fill shifts in her old ward because she likes the other staff, is familiar with the work and knows that she can make an important contribution.  It?s also a great way to keep up to date with current procedures.  However the last time she turned up, she was then suddenly redeployed to a different ward because the sister in charge of that ward made a huge fuss about being understaffed, which left the Critical Care ward even more understaffed. She ended up doing very little work in that other ward that night because it was now fully staffed and happened to be an uneventful shift with no real emergencies..  When she returned to the Critical Care ward to get her belongings from the lockers, she was dismayed to find that the entire shift there had been hectic for various reasons, made worse by being well below the safe staffing level.  She was absolutely furious and is now unlikely to offer to do any more such shifts if she doesn?t get to end up doing the work she agreed to do. On top of that, if she had agreed to do an extra shift in the police force instead, she would have been paid more.

CSWs are particularly peeved these days because even a senior CSW with extra experience, training and responsibility is paid less than a newly recruited checkout assistant at Aldi. It?s little wonder that they are leaving to do other jobs.

People doing office based NHS jobs are also leaving for similar reasons. The pay is now well below that of other employers, while the workload is increasing. Furthermore, every time a new Health Secretary is appointed by a new Prime Minister, they decide that what?s really needed is a reorganisation of the way that the NHS is managed.   They seem to be oblivious to the fact that each previous reorganisation has been chaotic and made things worse, but they believe that their magic reorganisation is going to be different ( hint: it never does make things better ).

I can see parallels with how I used to despise BBC management for being out of touch and always coming up with ways to make our job less appealing.  The reason I left the BBC was more to do with issues regarding managers than anything else. I loved the work I was doing, but could see that I was feeling that the system was getting in the way of programme making and in particular it was getting in the way of enjoying making programmes. I felt that the BBC had reached a point where it could never recover. Little did I realise that over the next couple of decades, the BBC would get rid of its OB fleet, studios and even TVC.

It?s the workers who get results.  If you have good workers, if you have enough of them and they are well motivated, you can do great things, but once that decline sets in, it?s a monumental task to make it better again. 

Alan




> On 30 Dec 2022, at 14:59, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Perhaps the worst year Hilary & I have ever coped with is drawing to its close. Going out much as it came in.
>  
> My 81 year old sister died in hospital at 7.30 pm on Christmas Eve. It has taken six days for the bereavement office to obtain a doctor?s signature to issue the death certificate. The doctors are so stretched that finding one with time to get away from ward duties has taken this long. In the modern era the hospital bereavement office sends the certificate electronically to the County Registration HQ and I have been notified this was finally being done this afternoon. Of course an appointment is now necessary for me to attend at a Registry Office to formally register the death.
>  
> There is no chance of an appointment slot being offered for today and the next day the service will be operating is Tuesday Jan 3rd ? 10 days after my sister?s demise when the standard rule is that a death should be registered within 5 days. This will be the third time I have had to do this, but it is 20 years since the last occasion and much has changed. In Somerset one can not now speak directly to any of the individual Registration Offices, you contact the central HQ in Taunton who, once they have ascertained that they have the Doctor?s certificate, will telephone with an an offer of an appointment.
>  
> I did in fact telephone the Registration HQ on Tuesday, mistakenly believing the certificate would already be with them. I had driven to the hospital on Xmas Day morning where the ward staff gave me to understand the process was already under way. I suspect they did not realise the Bereavement Office (which performs the actual electronic transfer function) was closed over the holiday period in marked contrast to Funeral Directors who operate 24/7 regardless of date.
>  
> All to no avail as the Reg. O was closed on Tuesday. The answer tape said ?the office is closed, our open times are Monday to Friday 9 am to 5.30 pm?. Not a word about Christmas week or revised availability because of it. I did speak to them the following day, Wednesday, which was when I found out the Doctor?s certificate had not been sent. Accordingly the next day, Thursday, I rang the Hospital Bereavement Service. Two numbers were given, the first produced ?your call can not be taken?, the second was a message to the effect that Transport was unavailable. Central reception had no way of finding whether or not the Office was staffed that day, just knew that it should have been.
>  
> I?ll spare you the rest, it doesn?t get any better. Everyone you do speak to is nice and tries to be helpful so at no stage do you feel cross with anyone, just that one becomes worn out with the effort of it all. I have been coping a 12 month with awful fatigue post shingles and perhaps feel the problems more keenly because of that.
>  
> I am executor as well as next of kin so hope probate and administering the estate doesn?t pile up more problems. Not holding my breath.
>  
> Dave Newbitt.
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From barrybonner119 at btinternet.com  Sat Dec 31 04:29:22 2022
From: barrybonner119 at btinternet.com (Barry Bonner)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 10:29:22 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] I hate plastic
In-Reply-To: <2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688@sky.com>
References: <2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688.ref@sky.com>
	<2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688@sky.com>
Message-ID: <0BCA1FD1-C568-49B2-8C69-ED61A4AEBBA3@btinternet.com>

Hi Barry,
	I also hate coat hangers. They seem to have a plan to annoy you, crash onto the floor and tangle with anything nearby! So welcome to kremastraphobia.

Maybe they just hate Barrys!

	Barry.



On 30 Dec 2022, at 15:38, B Wilkinson via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

> Why is it that small important plastic bits in devices seem to break easily and yet single use plastic protective covers are almost impossible to open? Whatever happened to dependable brass and steel?
> PS I also hate coat hangers. They are specifically designed to entangle if kept together in a bag. 
> Is that quantum entanglement or just annoying?
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

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From chris at chriswoolf.co.uk  Sat Dec 31 06:00:06 2022
From: chris at chriswoolf.co.uk (Chris Woolf)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 12:00:06 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] I hate plastic
In-Reply-To: <2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688@sky.com>
References: <2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688.ref@sky.com>
	<2540826A-7AF8-4420-B163-ECC5E8100688@sky.com>
Message-ID: <47645774-6a45-0bda-00f9-ea94ed3dec5d@chriswoolf.co.uk>


On 30/12/2022 15:38, B Wilkinson via Tech1 wrote:
> Why is it that small important plastic bits in devices seem to break easily ...

Heaven knows how much plastic gear is chucked because just one tiny bit 
breaks, and makes the whole thing useless.

I'm lucky, in that I was able to justify a 3D printer for work use, so 
have it lying around with spare time when not printing out stuff related 
to microphones. But that spare time has been used to enormous effect, 
often making those little spare bits. I have a large folder of 
"domestic" drawings to replace the lost, broken or worn out. The list is 
 >100 long now but includes large screw-top jar lids (the old ones crack 
eventually), plumbing washers of ever kind imaginable, pet carrier lid 
catch, bird-feeder anti-squirrel lock, secateurs lock knob, replacements 
for half-a-dozen different chipped bezels for all sorts of things ....

Trouble is, I can't imagine doing without the ability to repair such 
things now.

Chris Woolf



From philiptyler at me.com  Sat Dec 31 06:26:35 2022
From: philiptyler at me.com (Philip Tyler)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 12:26:35 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] I hate plastic
In-Reply-To: <0BCA1FD1-C568-49B2-8C69-ED61A4AEBBA3@btinternet.com>
References: <0BCA1FD1-C568-49B2-8C69-ED61A4AEBBA3@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <BFF42F96-1E31-46A3-8EBB-920714E1CD04@me.com>

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From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Sat Dec 31 06:38:28 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 12:38:28 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] I hate plastic
In-Reply-To: <BFF42F96-1E31-46A3-8EBB-920714E1CD04@me.com>
References: <BFF42F96-1E31-46A3-8EBB-920714E1CD04@me.com>
Message-ID: <C43EB20F-B11A-4478-8FB2-EB22A78CC2E2@sky.com>

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From tuckergarth at me.com  Sat Dec 31 10:16:06 2022
From: tuckergarth at me.com (Garth Tucker)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 16:16:06 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Twaddle
Message-ID: <4537682A-EF2F-4E0D-A559-BA71AB26E713@me.com>

Please, oh please, do not fill my emails with discussions about coat hangers. It takes me to the edge of sanity.

Garth

From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Sat Dec 31 11:42:26 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 17:42:26 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Twaddle
In-Reply-To: <4537682A-EF2F-4E0D-A559-BA71AB26E713@me.com>
References: <4537682A-EF2F-4E0D-A559-BA71AB26E713@me.com>
Message-ID: <3FA3C4B3-E596-4CEF-AB16-7749554196C6@sky.com>

But it?s in the tech ops emails rule book, chapter seven sub section three.
It?s the Sanity Clause.
Anyway after last year I think it?s better on the other side of sanity. I was getting bored with paragraphs about HDMIs and usb plugs and sockets, even though I am a self confessed techno geek. 
? Nurse?..the screens?..it?s happened again? ????

Sent from my iPad

> On 31 Dec 2022, at 16:16, Garth Tucker via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?Please, oh please, do not fill my emails with discussions about coat hangers. It takes me to the edge of sanity.
> 
> Garth
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



From pat.heigham at amps.net  Sat Dec 31 11:58:11 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 17:58:11 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Twaddle
In-Reply-To: <4537682A-EF2F-4E0D-A559-BA71AB26E713@me.com>
References: <4537682A-EF2F-4E0D-A559-BA71AB26E713@me.com>
Message-ID: <12daf31b-b02c-5378-16a1-20ee88e480e8@amps.net>

Ah! Just coaching you to run the asylum!

But it's a good idea to remove the hanger _before_ putting on your coat!

Pat

On 31/12/2022 16:16, Garth Tucker via Tech1 wrote:
> Please, oh please, do not fill my emails with discussions about coat hangers. It takes me to the edge of sanity.
>
> Garth
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From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Sat Dec 31 12:02:25 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 18:02:25 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Twaddle
In-Reply-To: <12daf31b-b02c-5378-16a1-20ee88e480e8@amps.net>
References: <12daf31b-b02c-5378-16a1-20ee88e480e8@amps.net>
Message-ID: <3C5F3D7E-5476-4BC6-BD97-7299A552EF5B@sky.com>

That reminds me of a phrase in The Fast Show?.well it?s a paraphrase of a punch  line in the show.
? Do my shoulders look big in this jacket??

Sent from my iPad

> On 31 Dec 2022, at 17:58, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Ah! Just coaching you to run the asylum!
> 
> But it's a good idea to remove the hanger before putting on your coat!
> 
> Pat
> 
> On 31/12/2022 16:16, Garth Tucker via Tech1 wrote:
>> Please, oh please, do not fill my emails with discussions about coat hangers. It takes me to the edge of sanity.
>> 
>> Garth
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From gary_critcher at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 31 12:22:56 2022
From: gary_critcher at yahoo.com (Gary Critcher)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 18:22:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Tech1] 2023
References: <1596129469.8815399.1672510976517.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1596129469.8815399.1672510976517@mail.yahoo.com>

? A bit early, I know, but here in Nairobi we're three hours ahead of the UK.?
? A happy and healthy new year to you all!
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Sat Dec 31 12:30:09 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 18:30:09 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Twaddle
In-Reply-To: <3C5F3D7E-5476-4BC6-BD97-7299A552EF5B@sky.com>
References: <12daf31b-b02c-5378-16a1-20ee88e480e8@amps.net>
	<3C5F3D7E-5476-4BC6-BD97-7299A552EF5B@sky.com>
Message-ID: <62732b80-097b-787d-73f9-a77b4d2d316a@amps.net>

Do you remember Kenny Everett appearing as an American General, with 
vast epaulettes?

Pat

On 31/12/2022 18:02, B Wilkinson wrote:
> That reminds me of a phrase in The Fast Show?.well it?s a paraphrase 
> of a punch ?line in the show.
> ? Do my shoulders look big in this jacket??
>
> Sent from my iPad
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From pat.heigham at amps.net  Sat Dec 31 13:35:28 2022
From: pat.heigham at amps.net (Pat Heigham)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 19:35:28 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Twaddle
In-Reply-To: <B8C3A673-8D36-4A1A-AC72-F8A938D58AD6@sky.com>
References: <62732b80-097b-787d-73f9-a77b4d2d316a@amps.net>
	<B8C3A673-8D36-4A1A-AC72-F8A938D58AD6@sky.com>
Message-ID: <f175dcca-75b7-5bf6-d59c-d375f01e2a07@amps.net>

So was Mike Bentine. When he launched TVC into space (on Square World), 
the management sent a memo, the gist being:

"The Television Centre is not to be used for entertainment"

Pat

On 31/12/2022 19:18, B Wilkinson wrote:
> Yes, he was mad too!
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 31 Dec 2022, at 18:30, Pat Heigham <pat.heigham at amps.net> wrote:
>>
>> Do you remember Kenny Everett appearing as an American General, with 
>> vast epaulettes?
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> On 31/12/2022 18:02, B Wilkinson wrote:
>>> That reminds me of a phrase in The Fast Show?.well it?s a paraphrase 
>>> of a punch ?line in the show.
>>> ? Do my shoulders look big in this jacket??
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
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From graeme.wall at icloud.com  Sat Dec 31 13:36:39 2022
From: graeme.wall at icloud.com (Graeme Wall)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 19:36:39 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] 2023
In-Reply-To: <1596129469.8815399.1672510976517@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1596129469.8815399.1672510976517.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
	<1596129469.8815399.1672510976517@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9DE8E731-47D7-4A6C-BC62-9A503063B4FC@icloud.com>

I remember it well, lunch in the Norfolk hotel!

> On 31 Dec 2022, at 18:22, Gary Critcher via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>   A bit early, I know, but here in Nairobi we're three hours ahead of the UK. 
> 
>   A happy and healthy new year to you all!
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk

? 
Graeme Wall




From waresound at msn.com  Sat Dec 31 13:47:13 2022
From: waresound at msn.com (Nick Ware)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 19:47:13 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Twaddle
In-Reply-To: <3FA3C4B3-E596-4CEF-AB16-7749554196C6@sky.com>
References: <4537682A-EF2F-4E0D-A559-BA71AB26E713@me.com>
	<3FA3C4B3-E596-4CEF-AB16-7749554196C6@sky.com>
Message-ID: <AM9P191MB16048D864A18EEB047E0CABCA7F19@AM9P191MB1604.EURP191.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Sanity Clause (and his reindeer)

The Edge of Sanity is a good place to be.
From there you get to clearly see
Whichever side you want to be.
But just a gentle word of warning
For when you wake up in the morning:
In the Land of the Mad,
It?s the Sane who are Mad.
And that?s the simple reason why
Iambic pentameter went awry.

Twaddle, you say, well beat that!
(What do you expect after all that Prosecco and Rioja, and rowdy grandchildren, etc.?)

Cheers and Happy New Year, one and all.
Nick Ware - Sent from my iPad

On 31 Dec 2022, at 17:43, B Wilkinson via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?But it?s in the tech ops emails rule book, chapter seven sub section three.
It?s the Sanity Clause.
Anyway after last year I think it?s better on the other side of sanity. I was getting bored with paragraphs about HDMIs and usb plugs and sockets, even though I am a self confessed techno geek.
? Nurse?..the screens?..it?s happened again? ????

Sent from my iPad

On 31 Dec 2022, at 16:16, Garth Tucker via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:

?Please, oh please, do not fill my emails with discussions about coat hangers. It takes me to the edge of sanity.

Garth
--
Tech1 mailing list
Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk


--
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Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net  Sat Dec 31 14:23:58 2022
From: dnewbitt at fireflyuk.net (David Newbitt)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 20:23:58 -0000
Subject: [Tech1] NHS pressures
In-Reply-To: <B869E315-D0FE-443C-986F-301ECB81281D@me.com>
References: <E454445304AB420882CFEB88A9159794@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
	<B869E315-D0FE-443C-986F-301ECB81281D@me.com>
Message-ID: <E8D6009248A24B5D809D15331D06ECF0@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>

Thank you Alan for the insight. Your dissertation and indeed some of your earlier posts re NHS matters show the value of informed anecdotal material when it comes to attempting an understanding of what is happening at the coal-face. More telling than the welter of analyses and anonymous data we have been treated to over recent years ? not that these are without value of course.

This last year I have spent significant time back and forth to hospitals on my own and other accounts. Much of what I have seen leaves me in no doubt of the dire straits the service is in but of course I have not been privy to the way any of the underlying issues are being dealt with. I know you write with reference to one particular hospital but it seems highly probable to me that similar ?management? strategy is widespread ? it certainly tallies with what I have observed.

Best wishes,

Dave Newbitt.

From: Alan Taylor via Tech1 
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2022 8:15 AM
To: tech1 
Subject: Re: [Tech1] NHS pressures

My sympathies for your loss and the resultant frustrations regarding getting people to do their jobs.  In our business, along with many others, we were used to working at any hour of any day, including Bank holidays. I find it very hard to accept that so many things have to shut down for about a fortnight every year. 

The NHS in most areas is having a massive problem with staff retention, compounded by very low levels of recruitment. The situation is made worse by local managers acting in unwise and insensitive ways while trying to tick boxes and meet targets.

Janet works in a critical care ward which about a year ago was relocated and refurbished to provide six modern critical care beds. For critical care, the normal staffing should be one nurse per two patients, plus one auxiliary ( CSW ) for every three, therefore three nurses and two CSWs for those six patients . Since then, the bed managers have decided that as it?s a large ward, they can squeeze in more beds and there are now fourteen beds in there. The extra eight beds are general purpose beds, which means that patients requiring critical care, now have the comings and goings of ?normal? patients who are usually well enough to be quite demanding if they are the type of person who has a sense of entitlement by nature. Covid patients are no longer fully isolated from other patients and the ?ordinary? patients have visitors who may compromise the infection control procedures which ought to apply to critically ill patients . 

Standard staffing levels have increased by just one nurse and one CSW, for that increase from six to fourteen patients, but in reality, those minimum staffing levels have now become a target which it would be nice to meet. Most days there are shifts which cannot be filled.

The solution is to try and get staff to work extra shifts, or to get staff who have recently left to work for other employers to come back for occasional shifts.  Each local authority has a web site listing shifts which remain empty.  People can opt to fill those particular shifts.  The Oxford Health trust generally lists about 70 such shifts every day. Many simply don?t get filled. They have to pay higher rates to fill these shifts than they would if staff were available in the first place. As a last resort, they employ agency staff at super-premium rates, which takes even more out of the budget.

One of Janet?s ex colleagues now works for the police force. Her police training salary was significantly higher than her NHS salary. She occasionally volunteers to fill shifts in her old ward because she likes the other staff, is familiar with the work and knows that she can make an important contribution.  It?s also a great way to keep up to date with current procedures.  However the last time she turned up, she was then suddenly redeployed to a different ward because the sister in charge of that ward made a huge fuss about being understaffed, which left the Critical Care ward even more understaffed. She ended up doing very little work in that other ward that night because it was now fully staffed and happened to be an uneventful shift with no real emergencies..  When she returned to the Critical Care ward to get her belongings from the lockers, she was dismayed to find that the entire shift there had been hectic for various reasons, made worse by being well below the safe staffing level.  She was absolutely furious and is now unlikely to offer to do any more such shifts if she doesn?t get to end up doing the work she agreed to do. On top of that, if she had agreed to do an extra shift in the police force instead, she would have been paid more.

CSWs are particularly peeved these days because even a senior CSW with extra experience, training and responsibility is paid less than a newly recruited checkout assistant at Aldi. It?s little wonder that they are leaving to do other jobs.

People doing office based NHS jobs are also leaving for similar reasons. The pay is now well below that of other employers, while the workload is increasing. Furthermore, every time a new Health Secretary is appointed by a new Prime Minister, they decide that what?s really needed is a reorganisation of the way that the NHS is managed.   They seem to be oblivious to the fact that each previous reorganisation has been chaotic and made things worse, but they believe that their magic reorganisation is going to be different ( hint: it never does make things better ).

I can see parallels with how I used to despise BBC management for being out of touch and always coming up with ways to make our job less appealing.  The reason I left the BBC was more to do with issues regarding managers than anything else. I loved the work I was doing, but could see that I was feeling that the system was getting in the way of programme making and in particular it was getting in the way of enjoying making programmes. I felt that the BBC had reached a point where it could never recover. Little did I realise that over the next couple of decades, the BBC would get rid of its OB fleet, studios and even TVC.

It?s the workers who get results.  If you have good workers, if you have enough of them and they are well motivated, you can do great things, but once that decline sets in, it?s a monumental task to make it better again. 

Alan




  On 30 Dec 2022, at 14:59, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:


  ? 
  Perhaps the worst year Hilary & I have ever coped with is drawing to its close. Going out much as it came in.

  My 81 year old sister died in hospital at 7.30 pm on Christmas Eve. It has taken six days for the bereavement office to obtain a doctor?s signature to issue the death certificate. The doctors are so stretched that finding one with time to get away from ward duties has taken this long. In the modern era the hospital bereavement office sends the certificate electronically to the County Registration HQ and I have been notified this was finally being done this afternoon. Of course an appointment is now necessary for me to attend at a Registry Office to formally register the death.

  There is no chance of an appointment slot being offered for today and the next day the service will be operating is Tuesday Jan 3rd ? 10 days after my sister?s demise when the standard rule is that a death should be registered within 5 days. This will be the third time I have had to do this, but it is 20 years since the last occasion and much has changed. In Somerset one can not now speak directly to any of the individual Registration Offices, you contact the central HQ in Taunton who, once they have ascertained that they have the Doctor?s certificate, will telephone with an an offer of an appointment.

  I did in fact telephone the Registration HQ on Tuesday, mistakenly believing the certificate would already be with them. I had driven to the hospital on Xmas Day morning where the ward staff gave me to understand the process was already under way. I suspect they did not realise the Bereavement Office (which performs the actual electronic transfer function) was closed over the holiday period in marked contrast to Funeral Directors who operate 24/7 regardless of date.

  All to no avail as the Reg. O was closed on Tuesday. The answer tape said ?the office is closed, our open times are Monday to Friday 9 am to 5.30 pm?. Not a word about Christmas week or revised availability because of it. I did speak to them the following day, Wednesday, which was when I found out the Doctor?s certificate had not been sent. Accordingly the next day, Thursday, I rang the Hospital Bereavement Service. Two numbers were given, the first produced ?your call can not be taken?, the second was a message to the effect that Transport was unavailable. Central reception had no way of finding whether or not the Office was staffed that day, just knew that it should have been.

  I?ll spare you the rest, it doesn?t get any better. Everyone you do speak to is nice and tries to be helpful so at no stage do you feel cross with anyone, just that one becomes worn out with the effort of it all. I have been coping a 12 month with awful fatigue post shingles and perhaps feel the problems more keenly because of that.

  I am executor as well as next of kin so hope probate and administering the estate doesn?t pile up more problems. Not holding my breath.

  Dave Newbitt.
  -- 
  Tech1 mailing list
  Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
  http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
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Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
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From mibridge at mac.com  Sat Dec 31 17:00:18 2022
From: mibridge at mac.com (Mike Giles)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 23:00:18 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] Twaddle
In-Reply-To: <3C5F3D7E-5476-4BC6-BD97-7299A552EF5B@sky.com>
References: <3C5F3D7E-5476-4BC6-BD97-7299A552EF5B@sky.com>
Message-ID: <2497A0F7-4D55-4BE3-ADBE-62293ABEDBBE@mac.com>

Please don?t pay attention to Garth! What we need is even more coat hangers, or do I mean cliff hangers? Barry?s contribution was quite educational - who knew that coat hangers are an acknowledged problem? When I mentioned kremastraphobia to my teenage grandchildren, two of them agreed that coat hangers can be quite intimidating, apparently having a life of their own when left alone in a bag!

Mike G

> On 31 Dec 2022, at 18:03, B Wilkinson via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?That reminds me of a phrase in The Fast Show?.well it?s a paraphrase of a punch  line in the show.
> ? Do my shoulders look big in this jacket??
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>>> On 31 Dec 2022, at 17:58, Pat Heigham via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> Ah! Just coaching you to run the asylum!
>> 
>> But it's a good idea to remove the hanger before putting on your coat!
>> 
>> Pat
>> 
>> On 31/12/2022 16:16, Garth Tucker via Tech1 wrote:
>>> Please, oh please, do not fill my emails with discussions about coat hangers. It takes me to the edge of sanity.
>>> 
>>> Garth
>> -- 
>> Tech1 mailing list
>> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
>> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
> -- 
> Tech1 mailing list
> Tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk
> http://tech-ops.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/tech1_tech-ops.co.uk
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From barry-wilkinson at sky.com  Sat Dec 31 17:56:28 2022
From: barry-wilkinson at sky.com (B Wilkinson)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 23:56:28 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] NHS pressures
In-Reply-To: <E8D6009248A24B5D809D15331D06ECF0@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
References: <E8D6009248A24B5D809D15331D06ECF0@DESKTOP6GGCRV1>
Message-ID: <BA056FC3-6345-4D1E-8C17-4B98FED34C05@sky.com>

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From alanaudio at me.com  Sat Dec 31 18:54:12 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2023 00:54:12 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] =?utf-8?q?Jools=E2=80=99_Hootenanny?=
Message-ID: <440C4473-1F21-484C-BE83-B42C9F0316EA@me.com>

I missed the start of the show, which possibly had an explanation, but does anybody know why all the artists on the show are wearing black?

Alan

From alanaudio at me.com  Sat Dec 31 19:16:44 2022
From: alanaudio at me.com (Alan Taylor)
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2023 01:16:44 +0000
Subject: [Tech1] NHS pressures
In-Reply-To: <BA056FC3-6345-4D1E-8C17-4B98FED34C05@sky.com>
References: <BA056FC3-6345-4D1E-8C17-4B98FED34C05@sky.com>
Message-ID: <D80205E7-939D-482B-9BE8-BC2F0F10CCB6@me.com>

You touched upon a topic which I was tempted to mention, but felt I had already spoken at too much length.

Bed blocking has become a massive problem in hospitals.  A patient cannot be discharged unless there is adequate care provision for them. Care in the community has reduced to a much lower level than it used to be.  The money paid to carers is lower than that paid to CSWs ( see my previous comment  about Aldi paying much more ). If no care package is available, they can?t be discharged and therefore needlessly occupy a hospital bed.

Much of what I?ve said about the NHS also applies to teachers.  My first wife gave up teaching long before her retirement age, my daughter was a deputy head at a very large school, but resigned when she was 40. The expected working hours were absurd. Thanks to certain newspapers, parents are often hostile or disrespectful towards teachers. There are constant regime changes and reorganisations, most of which are ill thought out.  Morale is incredibly low. Four others in our blended family are starting careers in teaching, but are starting with the expectation that they will most likely resign long before retirement age. 

Alan


> On 31 Dec 2022, at 23:56, B Wilkinson <barry-wilkinson at sky.com> wrote:
> 
> ?I too have experienced the NHS from critical care where I very nearly died ( due to sepsis and not the NHS) right down to wards where people go just before going home. I have been on several wards where sadly I was the only one who I could have a conversation with. The hospitals are full of people who should be in other types of accommodation , stopping the medical hospitals getting on with their crucial task of making people better. My experience of the nurses was 95% positive and I would never do what some of them are asked to do for any money. 
> The management situation reminds me of experiences at both the BBC and Granada where after three years or so in a particular management position people would move on or be politely asked to move on. They were never there long enough to take responsibility for their actions. New managers came in with ? New Plans? which all the minions knew would not work , but were put into place . No manager ever listened to those at the coal face who knew what was wrong. 
> I have no solution for the NHS probably because there isn?t one as it is far to large to change. In my experience the smaller any organisation is the more efficient it is, no room for any unnecessary management posts to organise woke like trends that are appearing everywhere you look.
> Happy new year y?all , just remember to not break a leg ( twice) either at Xmas or NewYear like I did, it is certainly not the best place to be at those times.
> Stay warm.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>>> On 31 Dec 2022, at 22:54, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>> ?
>> Thank you Alan for the insight. Your dissertation and indeed some of your earlier posts re NHS matters show the value of informed anecdotal material when it comes to attempting an understanding of what is happening at the coal-face. More telling than the welter of analyses and anonymous data we have been treated to over recent years ? not that these are without value of course.
>>  
>> This last year I have spent significant time back and forth to hospitals on my own and other accounts. Much of what I have seen leaves me in no doubt of the dire straits the service is in but of course I have not been privy to the way any of the underlying issues are being dealt with. I know you write with reference to one particular hospital but it seems highly probable to me that similar ?management? strategy is widespread ? it certainly tallies with what I have observed.
>>  
>> Best wishes,
>>  
>> Dave Newbitt.
>>  
>> From: Alan Taylor via Tech1
>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2022 8:15 AM
>> To: tech1
>> Subject: Re: [Tech1] NHS pressures
>>  
>> My sympathies for your loss and the resultant frustrations regarding getting people to do their jobs.  In our business, along with many others, we were used to working at any hour of any day, including Bank holidays. I find it very hard to accept that so many things have to shut down for about a fortnight every year.
>>  
>> The NHS in most areas is having a massive problem with staff retention, compounded by very low levels of recruitment. The situation is made worse by local managers acting in unwise and insensitive ways while trying to tick boxes and meet targets.
>>  
>> Janet works in a critical care ward which about a year ago was relocated and refurbished to provide six modern critical care beds. For critical care, the normal staffing should be one nurse per two patients, plus one auxiliary ( CSW ) for every three, therefore three nurses and two CSWs for those six patients . Since then, the bed managers have decided that as it?s a large ward, they can squeeze in more beds and there are now fourteen beds in there. The extra eight beds are general purpose beds, which means that patients requiring critical care, now have the comings and goings of ?normal? patients who are usually well enough to be quite demanding if they are the type of person who has a sense of entitlement by nature. Covid patients are no longer fully isolated from other patients and the ?ordinary? patients have visitors who may compromise the infection control procedures which ought to apply to critically ill patients .
>>  
>> Standard staffing levels have increased by just one nurse and one CSW, for that increase from six to fourteen patients, but in reality, those minimum staffing levels have now become a target which it would be nice to meet. Most days there are shifts which cannot be filled.
>>  
>> The solution is to try and get staff to work extra shifts, or to get staff who have recently left to work for other employers to come back for occasional shifts.  Each local authority has a web site listing shifts which remain empty.  People can opt to fill those particular shifts.  The Oxford Health trust generally lists about 70 such shifts every day. Many simply don?t get filled. They have to pay higher rates to fill these shifts than they would if staff were available in the first place. As a last resort, they employ agency staff at super-premium rates, which takes even more out of the budget.
>>  
>> One of Janet?s ex colleagues now works for the police force. Her police training salary was significantly higher than her NHS salary. She occasionally volunteers to fill shifts in her old ward because she likes the other staff, is familiar with the work and knows that she can make an important contribution.  It?s also a great way to keep up to date with current procedures.  However the last time she turned up, she was then suddenly redeployed to a different ward because the sister in charge of that ward made a huge fuss about being understaffed, which left the Critical Care ward even more understaffed. She ended up doing very little work in that other ward that night because it was now fully staffed and happened to be an uneventful shift with no real emergencies..  When she returned to the Critical Care ward to get her belongings from the lockers, she was dismayed to find that the entire shift there had been hectic for various reasons, made worse by being well below the safe staffing level.  She was absolutely furious and is now unlikely to offer to do any more such shifts if she doesn?t get to end up doing the work she agreed to do. On top of that, if she had agreed to do an extra shift in the police force instead, she would have been paid more.
>>  
>> CSWs are particularly peeved these days because even a senior CSW with extra experience, training and responsibility is paid less than a newly recruited checkout assistant at Aldi. It?s little wonder that they are leaving to do other jobs.
>>  
>> People doing office based NHS jobs are also leaving for similar reasons. The pay is now well below that of other employers, while the workload is increasing. Furthermore, every time a new Health Secretary is appointed by a new Prime Minister, they decide that what?s really needed is a reorganisation of the way that the NHS is managed.   They seem to be oblivious to the fact that each previous reorganisation has been chaotic and made things worse, but they believe that their magic reorganisation is going to be different ( hint: it never does make things better ).
>>  
>> I can see parallels with how I used to despise BBC management for being out of touch and always coming up with ways to make our job less appealing.  The reason I left the BBC was more to do with issues regarding managers than anything else. I loved the work I was doing, but could see that I was feeling that the system was getting in the way of programme making and in particular it was getting in the way of enjoying making programmes. I felt that the BBC had reached a point where it could never recover. Little did I realise that over the next couple of decades, the BBC would get rid of its OB fleet, studios and even TVC.
>>  
>> It?s the workers who get results.  If you have good workers, if you have enough of them and they are well motivated, you can do great things, but once that decline sets in, it?s a monumental task to make it better again.
>>  
>> Alan
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>>> On 30 Dec 2022, at 14:59, David Newbitt via Tech1 <tech1 at tech-ops.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> 
>>> ?
>>> Perhaps the worst year Hilary & I have ever coped with is drawing to its close. Going out much as it came in.
>>>  
>>> My 81 year old sister died in hospital at 7.30 pm on Christmas Eve. It has taken six days for the bereavement office to obtain a doctor?s signature to issue the death certificate. The doctors are so stretched that finding one with time to get away from ward duties has taken this long. In the modern era the hospital bereavement office sends the certificate electronically to the County Registration HQ and I have been notified this was finally being done this afternoon. Of course an appointment is now necessary for me to attend at a Registry Office to formally register the death.
>>>  
>>> There is no chance of an appointment slot being offered for today and the next day the service will be operating is Tuesday Jan 3rd ? 10 days after my sister?s demise when the standard rule is that a death should be registered within 5 days. This will be the third time I have had to do this, but it is 20 years since the last occasion and much has changed. In Somerset one can not now speak directly to any of the individual Registration Offices, you contact the central HQ in Taunton who, once they have ascertained that they have the Doctor?s certificate, will telephone with an an offer of an appointment.
>>>  
>>> I did in fact telephone the Registration HQ on Tuesday, mistakenly believing the certificate would already be with them. I had driven to the hospital on Xmas Day morning where the ward staff gave me to understand the process was already under way. I suspect they did not realise the Bereavement Office (which performs the actual electronic transfer function) was closed over the holiday period in marked contrast to Funeral Directors who operate 24/7 regardless of date.
>>>  
>>> All to no avail as the Reg. O was closed on Tuesday. The answer tape said ?the office is closed, our open times are Monday to Friday 9 am to 5.30 pm?. Not a word about Christmas week or revised availability because of it. I did speak to them the following day, Wednesday, which was when I found out the Doctor?s certificate had not been sent. Accordingly the next day, Thursday, I rang the Hospital Bereavement Service. Two numbers were given, the first produced ?your call can not be taken?, the second was a message to the effect that Transport was unavailable. Central reception had no way of finding whether or not the Office was staffed that day, just knew that it should have been.
>>>  
>>> I?ll spare you the rest, it doesn?t get any better. Everyone you do speak to is nice and tries to be helpful so at no stage do you feel cross with anyone, just that one becomes worn out with the effort of it all. I have been coping a 12 month with awful fatigue post shingles and perhaps feel the problems more keenly because of that.
>>>  
>>> I am executor as well as next of kin so hope probate and administering the estate doesn?t pile up more problems. Not holding my breath.
>>>  
>>> Dave Newbitt.
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